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Nocturne vs. Naraku

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Uh lets see... For Naraku I see Type 9 Immortality, Mid Godly, acausality and power null on eye contact. What arguments do we got for Nocturne?
 
Nocturne also likely mindhaxes as his hax should be beyond anything the Shikon Jewel can protect Naraku from
 
Could u explain how his Dreamworld ability and powernull work they seem to both be capable of such. Also I don't think u can null type 9 and mid godly without reasoning/mechanics. Seeing as these are very specific abilities just saying "power null" feels a litte weird without additional informations. Also based on what does his mind hax overide naraku's resistenences. Narakus Mind and Will exists inside the Shikon Jewels Void. A plane of existance which remains intact even when the Shikon Jewel itself is destroyed and its fragments scattered through space and time. How would Nocturne even affect Naraku in the first place?
 
He passively nullifies any and all supernatural abilities while in the dream world, and if he kills you in the dream world you die irl which would bypass regen present in the real world.

Nocturne has mind hax that rivals Star Wars characters in potency, he's the embodiment of all nightmares that have ever happened and ever will happen

Nocturne also resists power nullification
 
The problem I have with the dream world is that it seems to be something so unquantifiable. His entire tier within that realm is apparently "unknown", hence gauging his strengths and weaknesses is not an easy task.

Bbecause of this I don't see how Nocturne were to effectively affect Naraku.

How and in what shape or form does his power Null work? On what powers has it worked in canon? Without some examples which allows us to get an angle on the specifics it's really hard to put a finger on the potency

Another thing which needs to be addressed is that narakus will, once he became the new magatsuhi, is not in the real world. Hence nocturne being able to (which I actually doubt, given the mid godly) destroy narakus body in the dream world will not have an effect on narakus will, located in a space and timeless void separate from the sphere of existence the fight takes place

I don't see nocturne having power null resistance on his profile. Neither do i see resistance to soul manipulation. Naraku can project himself straight into others souls and twist them - or if a more physical approach is required, him teleporting behind the enemies is an regular in character first move - which paired with the soul manipulation on touch would spell doom for nocturne

All in all I think while there may or may not be one or two special traits he has to likely prolong the fight in a certain manner I don't see him having any way to permanently down a mid godly, much less a mid godly which added type 9 immortality (can he kill space and timeless voids in the past present future and different dimensions?)

Naraku ok the other hand has access to a broad range of possibly lethal things. Usually beginning with either power null (how does he resist that?) or his famous teleport + soulmanipulation / teleport + physical absorption combination

Or he could technically flex his aura and reality warp nocturnes insides to nothing but acid

We also have to take into account that these arguments have been made under the premise of the fight taking place inside nocturnes home dimension - however just because we use dream realm nocturne doesn't mean we use that very same location. Naraku is immune to dimensional BFR, meaning getting him to the dream world in the first place would be not possible

In addition, Naraku has the feat of teleporting between dimensions, so even assuming that he for whatever reason were inside the dreamworld he could just as easily get out of there

I am sorry but in this fight there are too many odds stacked against Nocturne.

Naraku takes this with mid difficulty if he immediately deploys one of his signature combos
 
Before i respond to that im just going to point out that Naraku isnt killing Nocturne without conceptual manipulation due to Nocturne being the concept of Nightmares
 
Absorbing, rendering powerless, sealing inside the Shikon Jewels void, soul twisting him into a subordinate are just some of the possibilities for Naraku to circumvent killing tho. All things which have happened on panel and are not just theorycrafted possibilities

But Yeha, we can continue this after your reply. My post was rather long.
 
@Raven Noc would passively null absorption, he's nulled power null that works on tier 6 beings, he's broken out of sealing before, and he nulls soul manip passively
 
>How and in what shape or form does his power Null work? On what powers has it worked in canon? Without some examples which allows us to get an angle on the specifics it's really hard to put a finger on the potency

Its passive power null that also allows him to absorb the power of attacks used against him to make him stronger. It has nulled dozens of Summoners (League of Legends) just by him being in the general area, with each summoner having power and potency far greater than anything Naraku has.

>I don't see nocturne having power null resistance on his profile. Neither do i see resistance to soul manipulation. Naraku can project himself straight into others souls and twist them - or if a more physical approach is required, him teleporting behind the enemies is an regular in character first move - which paired with the soul manipulation on touch would spell doom for nocturne

He nullified the power nullification of Summoners who can power null tier 6 beings. Noc can nullify soul manipulation passively and he doesnt have a physical body so going for a physical approach is pointless.

>All in all I think while there may or may not be one or two special traits he has to likely prolong the fight in a certain manner I don't see him having any way to permanently down a mid godly, much less a mid godly which added type 9 immortality (can he kill space and timeless voids in the past present future and different dimensions?)

Yes, Noc can do that

>Naraku ok the other hand has access to a broad range of possibly lethal things. Usually beginning with either power null (how does he resist that?) or his famous teleport + soulmanipulation / teleport + physical absorption combination

Nocturne's shadow clones alone have shredded power-nullifying armor. Soul manip and absorption wont do anything due to Noc's immortality, and Noc would null all three of those abilities. Noc also has thousands of souls so manipulating one wont do anything to him.

>Or he could technically flex his aura and reality warp nocturnes insides to nothing but acid

Nocturne doesnt have insides, he's a cloud of darkness. And he'd power null said aura and reality warping before that happens. >We also have to take into account that these arguments have been made under the premise of the fight taking place inside nocturnes home dimension - however just because we use dream realm nocturne doesn't mean we use that very same location. Naraku is immune to dimensional BFR, meaning getting him to the dream world in the first place would be not possible

Sleeping isnt dimensional BFR. Nocturne's dream real is just like Freddy Kruger's dream realm. He invades dreams.

>In addition, Naraku has the feat of teleporting between dimensions, so even assuming that he for whatever reason were inside the dreamworld he could just as easily get out of there

So...Naraku self BFRs?
 
Nocturne can absorb souls, drain life force, force his target to experience the culmination of trillions upon trillions of nightmares all at once, driving them insane, and can make his opponents hundreds of different kinds of fear and experience death 100 times over in their mind
 
Nocturne cant kill Naraku outright but he will absolutely mind hax him into submission as nothing Naraku has can affect him
 
Can you compile some feats for that? Especially the resistance to soul manipulation or the resistance to power null are of interest to me, seeing how these two very important abilities are not referred in his profile

Or his ability to kill a mid godly on several spheres of existence would be also nice

Naraku does not have dreams. His physical body contains of nothing but liquified or molded miasma. There is no sleeps inducement possible. Similar to how he would not be able to sleep induce a piece of rock he can't sleep induce miasma.

If his danger comes from the damage he can do within his dream realm then he has actually even less chances since the basic premise of him getting his enemy to sleep can't be fullfilled in the first place

-

Meaning all the feats he may have inside the dream world are likely even redundant since He doesn't get Naraku to sleep in the first place

Edit: I like to add that Naraku has effectively soulmanipulated someone who previously not only withstood soul manipulation but whose soul has erected its own barrier. Yet Naraku was able to twist her - albeit briefly.
 
If Naraku cant be in the dream world then what is the point of this fight lol

I'll answer everythign else after we get that part taken care of
 
Nocturne ISN'T the concept of nightmares, Weekly.

And his null isn't that strong. It CAN'T bypass type 9 and mid-godly, stop wanking.
 
@Schro Yes actually Nocturne is the concept of nightmares

Never said he can bypass Type 9 or Mid Godly, in fact if you actually read what i wrote you'd see that i explicitly said he couldnt and that Noc wouldnt be able to kill Naraku because of it and would have to resort to incap via mind hax or madness hax
 
@Zach So..you didnt read any of what was said? Because thats basically a vote with no reasoning behind it
 
@Zach Naraku doesnt have a resistance to mind hax good enough to resist what Noc is capable of, Noc's mind hax rivals Star Wars characters
 
@Zach By being able to inflict people with the culmination of every single nightmare that has ever happened and ever will happen in the future arcoss the whole of humanity's existence
 
@Schro "A demonic amalgamation drawn from the nightmares that haunt every sentient mind, the thing known as Nocturne has become a primordial force of pure evil. It is liquidly chaotic in aspect, a faceless shadow with cold eyes and armed with wicked-looking blades. After freeing itself from the spirit realm, Nocturne descended upon the waking world, to feed upon the kind of terror that can only thrive in true darkness."

Please stop misinforming people
 
Anyways, someone needs to get the OP in here as apparently this match cant even happen due to how Naraku works
 
That pretty much states that he is a spirit and not a concept. "Primordial force of pure evil" is just a way to describe him being a spirit/shadow made out of nightmares
 
@Heavens That's not the only quote, thats just one of them, there are multiple that prove he relies on the concept of nightmares to exist as well as the fact that all demons in LoL rely on a certain concept in order to exist
 
Schro is right tho. It's prolly a being that was born from nightmares but doesn't imply anything about it being the concept of nightmares.

Edit: @Weekly Then it just means that Noc is an Abstract Existence but either a Type 2 or Type 3
 
Oh btw, from Kal's new draft:

Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept that they represent grants them Immortality/Regenerationn

Does Noc fulfil this requirement? If he does then he's a Type 2 Abstract Existence
 
The thing with Naraku is that all his abilities, powers, performed feats and scalings he get have been performed in the real world. The void of the Shikon Jewel is used for exposition and gives him his Regenerationn as well as his type 9 immortality but his powers are not limited to that void.

In Nocturnes profile it doesnt seem to be made especially clear that his powers and abilities are partially linked only to the dream realm. To me it initially looked like "Dream Realm" just is a new key and transformation, similar to Naraku, instead of him being required to be in this actual location for his more dangerous stuff to work.

Can you touch a little on his powers and abilities outside of the Dream Realm? He is technically allowed to go all out - only that getting Naraku to sleep due to his nature would not work (and by proxy all the possible Dream Realm abilities).
 
Okay, since im assuming this is Eternum Nocturne as per SBA, Nocturne is the amalgamation of all nightmares that have ever happened in the past and will ever happen in the future across the span of all living beings. As long as the concept of nightmares exists, Nocturne will exist. Since this is Eternum Nocturne, i'll brush up on what he can do specifically from this form:

  • He can attack through space and time
  • He can cut holes in the fabric of space-time
  • He can time travel by moving
  • He can travel to places outside of space-time (He quite literally originates from outside of space-time)
Now for general powers. Nocturne is intangible, physical attacks do not work on him and he can pass through solid objects and people unimpeded. Passing through a person in particular causes a person to be so overloaded with fear that they collapse into a comatose state, with lesser uses of his fear manipulation forcing his target to physically experience the sensation of dying in hundreds of different ways, such as drowning, being buried alive, or being decapitated. He has the ability to drain souls from a distance as well as drain souls through people's dreams, as well as drain an entire town's worth of life force from far away. He is able to drive people completely insane through both psychological torture and mind manip, though only the latter is really combat applicable. His mind manip is stupidly potent as he is able to utilize the trillions upon trillions of nightmares he embodies to directly attack the opponent's mind, driving them insane instantly or putting them into a coma due to the overload. He can also directly inject his consciousness into his target's mind, causing it to physically collapse under the mental assault. He is also able to manifest his target's greatest fears and nightmares as shadow beings with all of his powers, and can do so en mass enough to create an army.

Nocturne's main shtick though is his power nullification. His power nullification is passive, has a massive range, and is able to nullify up to the Country level power nullification of dozens of Summoners just by being near them. He can instantly coat the battlefield in darkness which severely cuts down the opponent's vision, forces them to experience extreme paranoia, and causes them to manifest their greatest fears from the darkness to attack them. This darkness also holds Nocturne's power nullifying properties.
 
Oh btw I found the full quote here:- https://universe.leagueoflegends.com/en_US/champion/nocturne/

It says A demonic amalgamation drawn from the nightmares that haunt every sentient mind, the thing known as Nocturne has become a primordial force of pure evil. It is liquidly chaotic in aspect, a faceless shadow with cold eyes and armed with wicked-looking blades. After freeing itself from the spirit realm, Nocturne descended upon the waking world, to feed upon the kind of terror that can only thrive in true darkness.

Seems like a Spiritual Entity more than a Conceptual/Abstract Entity.

Also can I get link for that whole "Space-Time Transcendence" thing?
 
Yeah but like I said before, based on Kal's draft on Abstract Existence Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept that they represent grants them Immortality/Regenerationn

Does Noc fulfil this requirement?

Also that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking for the Source of that pic. Like a link. Because that's a completely vague screenshot and doesn't tell much.
 
Technically it's also on the current AE page

"This term means that a certain character is an immaterial embodiment of a fundamental abstract concept, and is able to regenerate as long as the concept itself continues to exist. It should be noted that simply being representative of a concept does not qualify a character for this ability, as it only applies to the ones that fulfill the above requirements."
 
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