These MCU characters should be scaled down

Heatforce · Jan 30, 2016

Captain America's shield

Hulk

Ironman

Loki

Ultron

All of the characters are scaled to city lvl due to Thor for some reason. My two arguments are:

1. Thor never struck them as hard as the city (forgot it's name) in age of ultron

2. The other characters have some serious low showings that do not = city lvl durability. Like Hulk being knocked out in AoU after going through a building.

Heatforce · Jan 30, 2016

Edit: and the reason why I say hulk was knocked in AoU is because he has reverted to banner in the next scene.

Gemmysaur · Jan 30, 2016

I agree with the shield being downgraded as Thor's hitting the shield with tiny sparks was a farcry from the Jotunbusting or the Sokoviabusting whack-attacks.

Thor and Hulk, I'm fine the way they are. Hulks is stronger and more durable anyway, Thor just has more power (he can amp his normal blows with lightning though).

Loki, I am fine as he is as he did manage to stab Thor. That's more than 90% of the verse was able to do to Thor. This however, is a whut?

"at least Supersonic+ to Hypersonic reactions (can keep up with Thor to some degree)"

I am not buying possibly City-level Loki though, Hulk wasn't bringing the building down with his thrashing Loki, it's likely lower.

Ultron, I agree with as well. He overpowered Thor from how the scene looked like, sure, but Thor was smiling and joking all the way, like he was just playing war with the Frost Giants, meaning not much of a threat to him.

The bolt Thor hit with Ultron though, despite being a continuous flow, was downright tiny so I don't know how we can quantify that, but he did tank it and a featless forehead laser and repulsor blasts that was shown to be atleast strong enough to annoy Thor, so yeah.

@offtopic: Where did this guy come from? I don't remember watching him. Is he from a trailer?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mangog_(Marvel_Cinematic_Universe)

Lastly, dunno if this is allowed but I'm questioning some things about their profiles as well.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/213030

Heatforce · Jan 30, 2016

Gemmysaur said:
I agree with the shield being downgraded as Thor's hitting the shield with tiny sparks was a farcry from the Jotunbusting or the Sokoviabusting whack-attacks.
Thor and Hulk, I'm fine the way they are. Hulks is stronger and more durable anyway, Thor just has more power (he can amp his normal blows with lightning though).

Loki, I am fine as he is as he did manage to stab Thor. That's more than 90% of the verse was able to do to Thor. This however, is a whut?

"at least Supersonic+ to Hypersonic reactions (can keep up with Thor to some degree)"

I am not buying possibly City-level Loki though, Hulk wasn't bringing the building down with his thrashing Loki, it's likely lower.

Ultron, I agree with as well. He overpowered Thor from how the scene looked like, sure, but Thor was smiling and joking all the way, like he was just playing war with the Frost Giants, meaning not much of a threat to him.

The bolt Thor hit with Ultron though, despite being a continuous flow, was downright tiny so I don't know how we can quantify that, but he did tank it and a featless forehead laser and repulsor blasts that was shown to be atleast strong enough to annoy Thor, so yeah.

@offtopic: Where did this guy come from? I don't remember watching him. Is he from a trailer?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mangog_(Marvel_Cinematic_Universe)

Lastly, dunno if this is allowed but I'm questioning some things about their profiles as well.

But hulk has never taken a blow that powerful and it took less than that to revert him to banner. Abomination is listed as city block lvl and until hulk shows some more I think he should mirror abomination. Plus I don't think ironman is city lvl either. Loki was probably able to stab thor because of the dagger being asgardian. Also, took far less of a thrashing from hulk to incapacitate Loki than it has to put either hulk or thor down.

Gemmysaur · Jan 31, 2016

We should calculate the Hulk separately from Thor then.
Hulk however, was knocked out by Iron Man, due to calming down (you could see the look of regret on his face) and getting hit in the temple (side of the head, not a location).

Also, I think we should have 2 tabs for Thor's AP, one for his pure physical blows (including throwing the hammer at very long distances) and another for his lightning-amped blows (the Jotun-buster and the Sokovia-buster).

Loki was able to stab Thor with an asgardian dagger, sure, but he has to have enough force to be able to push it in, so he has to have very high strength as well, though not Thor and Hulk level. Thor was only pushed down by bullets from a jetfighter anyway, not pierced, so Loki's physical strength > the jetfighter's guns, atleast.

Also, Thor's lightning blasts vary in sizes, as it grows far, far, stronger when it grows larger. Tiny bolts half as thick as Mjolnir being low, bolts as thick as Mjolnir busts Jotunheim and bolts as wide as Thor himself can crack Sokovia.

Thor's pure physical AP, the strongest of which I can find is the hammer toss against and the clash with Malekith.

Jotun-busting lightning is as thick as Mjolnir

Hammer-wide.

City cracking lightning size as wide as himself

Thor-wide lightning.

Attack power depends on thickness of lightning and does not need casting time

Half-hammer thickness

Groundbreaking

Sent multiple grunts flying with one hammer throw

Flying grunts.

Sent Malekith a few tens of meters away and through a concrete column

Pillar-busting throws.

Heatforce · Jan 31, 2016

Well another negative on hulks durability is that ironman was able to knock a tooth out with the hulk buster armor.

And as for loki, even if we say his strength > .50 rounds, that is still not enough to justify city level either. Loki did have an asgardian blade after all and it still stands that it took far less than a city level attack from the hulk to incapacitate him in avengers. Besides thor's durability is wonky since it took a punch from hulk to make him bleed from the nose.

Two tabs seems like a good idea.

Gemmysaur · Jan 31, 2016

Heatforce said:
~Snip

Hulk is not on Thor's tier in durability from what I saw. He compensates for this with healing factor.

Also, losing a tooth due to a punch to a physical near-equal is not much of a negative. Remember the part where they punched each other's punch and the force was felt for some tens of meters away, and neither of them budged? That shows that Hulkbuster has atleast enough strength to tango with Hulk for a while, losing out only to healing factor and Hulk's nigh-limitless stamina.

As for Loki, not once in my post did I say he is justified with City-level anything. He is strong enough to push a blade strong enough to pierce Thor, he should be high strength-wise but not on the big guys' level. Maybe large building level by guesses, maybe higher, maybe lower, but that's just me.

Durability-wise, See my previous comment with Loki's durability included.. "I am not buying possibly City-level Loki though, Hulk wasn't bringing the building down with his thrashing Loki, it's likely lower."

Thor's durability is not so wonky. Sure he tanked a few something tons of rock dropping on him when Sokovia flew up, but bled to a punch from Hulk. The Hulk however, has all his force concentrated on his fist when punching Thor, unlike the rocks falling randomly on and around him.

It's still impressive mind you, but so is getting punched by the Hulk and smiling afterwards, bleeding a little or not.

Heatforce · Feb 1, 2016

I agree hulk and the hulk buster are equals but just not on the city lvl tier. I would understand City block lvl or city block + since that is about the scale of damage we see in the fight between hulk and ironman.

Large building I dunno that still may be too much for loki. Then again he is a frost giant so maybe we can scale from there because he has showed nothing above small building lvl iirc and I feel like I'm still being generous.

Still ultimately we agree, there needs to be some revisions for a few mcu characters.

Antvasima · Feb 1, 2016

I also think that they all seem rated too high, unless there are solid calculations backing them up.

Gemmysaur · Feb 1, 2016

So, to start with, how bout...

THOR

Key: Depowered / Base / Lightning-amped

Powers and Abilities: Peak Human capabilities / Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Flight (via Mjolnir), Weather Manipulation (Rain (Thor2), Tornado(Thor1), Lightning storm(Avengers)), Immortality (Longetivity), Electricity Manipulation (Can fire lightning from Mjolnir), Earthquake Generation (via Lightning-amped hammerstrike to the ground)

Prolonged lighting attacks deal more damage apparently

Lightning from the hammer

Mjolnir and shield makes explosive gusts

Lightning from the sky

Attack Potency: Street Level / Building Level (Large maybe? for swatting a car and throwing the hammer hard enough to push Malekith through a concrete pillar some tens of meters away and dragging mooks along by the sheer force of it; throwing the hammer through multiple Frost Giants) / City Level (Destroyed the entire city of Sokovia with a lightning bolt to the Vibranium core.)

The force of the hammer flying by throws them backwards

Charging up the hammer blow to the Vibranium center

Striking Strength:' Class KJ (Superhuman to Wall Level) / Class GJ (Building to Small City Level) / Class PJ' (Small City to Mountain Level; Comparable to high-end nukes)

Durability: Peak Human / City Level

Speed: Peak Human / Superhuman with Atleast Subsonic reactions; Atleast Hypersonic flight speed, Possibly Massively Hypersonic flight speed

Quicksilver slowmo scene shows Thor moving when Iron Man is not

In Quicksilver's perception, only Thor and Ultron's finger beams are moving.

Consistently deflecting plasma bolts

(Note: I was gonna base this off Cap but seeing as his profile and Winter Soldier's speed is also weird, I went with Loki's arrow catching feat and Iron Man's tank shell dodging feat)

Stamina: High / Very High (Capable of fighting hordes of enemies without getting tired, e.g. Frost Giants, Chitauri and Ultron bots)

Range: Melee / Several meters via hammer throw and lightning bolts.

Intelligence: Highly skilled fighter, Knowledgable about things beyond human knowledge (e.g. the existence of the 9 realms, the infinity stones, etc.)

Weakness: Reliant on his hammer, Mjolnir, otherwise, none notable.

Weapon: None / Mjolnir

_________________________

So, how bout it? Just so we can start.

Gwynbleiddd · Feb 1, 2016

It should be noted that the City level feat was done under wird circumstances.So it may not be Thor's actual AP.

Skeleturtle · Feb 1, 2016

It wasn't his own power. He destroyed the generator that was holding the whole city in one piece and afloat. So no city level MCU Thor for ya.

Antvasima · Feb 1, 2016

I think that Large Building level seems reasonable for MCU Thor and Hulk.

Gwynbleiddd · Feb 1, 2016

I will do a few calcs.

Antvasima · Feb 1, 2016

Thank you.

Heatforce · Feb 1, 2016

In defense of Thor being city level: I beleive Ironman stated that Thor would be able to fragment Sokovia but the pieces raining down would still be too large. Hence why Tony had to assist Thor.

I take that as around city lvl IMO.

Gemmysaur · Feb 1, 2016

Antvasima said:
I think that Large Building level seems reasonable for MCU Thor and Hulk.

For which is this? Large Building for Thor's physical strikes maybe, but lightning-amped, I think should go higher, considering he casually dropped Jotunheim with one Mjolnir-wide lightning bolt.

It was casual because he did not charge up for it, he just did. The times he did charge was when he was not at full capacity during the Avengers (hence the tiny bolt against Iron Man, also when he took like 16 seconds or something to charge up for vaporizing Sokovia.

I'm all for waiting for the calcs though.

Thunderstruck.

Heatforce · Feb 1, 2016

I just don't see how other characters can scale to Thor since he's never used a strike as powerful as the one on sokovia.

Gemmysaur · Feb 1, 2016

Heatforce said:
I just don't see how other characters can scale to Thor since he's never used a strike as powerful as the one on sokovia.

I agree. None of them needs to be scaled except for reactions maybe.

Oh and look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl00gSkOtnw @ 1:37 onwards, Quicksilver's perception shows the ones moving are Thor, Iron Man's propulsion from his feet and Ultron's finger beams, showing he is actually a cut above the rest in movement speed.

Antvasima · Feb 1, 2016

Well, as you said, we can probably scale Hulk to non-lightning enhanced Thor/Thor without Mjolnir, but it seems questionable to scale him from the Sokovia feat.

Gemmysaur · Feb 1, 2016

Antvasima said:
Well, as you said, we can probably scale Hulk to non-lightning enhanced Thor/Thor without Mjolnir, but it seems questionable to scale him from the Sokovia feat.

I don't get it.

The Sokovia feat is for lightning-amped Thor so Hulk is in no way scalable to that. He can be scaled to Base Thor, where he is likely marginally higher. Maybe with the + sign? He did oneshot a giant raging armored alien snake thing with a standing punch, though maybe not since the snake thing did fly right into his forearm.

Antvasima · Feb 1, 2016

That is roughly my sentiment as well, yes.

Gemmysaur · Feb 1, 2016

Antvasima said:
That is roughly my sentiment as well, yes.

Oh, ok then. I kinda didn't understand it back there. Sorry.

Naitez · Feb 1, 2016

Gemmysaur said:
Oh and look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl00gSkOtnw @ 1:37 onwards, Quicksilver's perception shows the ones moving are Thor, Iron Man's propulsion from his feet and Ultron's finger beams, showing he is actually a cut above the rest in movement speed.

Just looked at that a couple times and it looks like that Iron Man, the Ultron drone, and Ultron Prime are moving as well. The only one that noticeably wasn't moving was Cap. Though you might have a point about Thor being faster since he's moving his arm quicker than anyone else in that shot besides Quicksilver.

ConsumingFire · Feb 1, 2016

Gemmysaur said:
@offtopic: Where did this guy come from? I don't remember watching him. Is he from a trailer?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mangog_(Marvel_Cinematic_Universe)

Mangog is from the Thor: God of Thunder videogame. The games aren't really canon to the films, though.

That aside, I agree with Iron Man and Hulk being around City Block Level for now given their fight in AoU. Hulk might have better feat showings in Thor: Ragnarok, but that's over a year away.

Gemmysaur · Feb 1, 2016

ConsumingFire said:
Mangog is from the Thor: God of Thunder videogame. The games aren't really canon to the films, though.

That aside, I agree with Iron Man and Hulk being around City Block Level for now given their fight in AoU. Hulk might have better feat showings in Thor: Ragnarok, but that's over a year away.

Oh. No wonder I never saw him as I am too poor to buy a game.

That aside, where was it announced that Hulk will be in Ragnarok? That's gotten me hyped up even more.

I hope they put the part from EMH where the creatures from the other realms were calling Hulk an ugly ogre or something.

ConsumingFire · Feb 1, 2016

Gemmysaur said:
Oh. No wonder I never saw him as I am too poor to buy a game.

That aside, where was it announced that Hulk will be in Ragnarok? That's gotten me hyped up even more.

I hope they put the part from EMH where the creatures from the other realms were calling Hulk an ugly ogre or something.

@offtopic: Hulk was announced for Thor 3 back in October I believe.

Also, are we opting to scale down Vision as well? His tier should directly influence Ultron's own due to "Vibranium" Ultron taking that combined attack for several seconds.

Gemmysaur · Feb 1, 2016

ConsumingFire said:
@offtopic: Hulk was announced for Thor 3 back in October I believe.

Also, are we opting to scale down Vision as well? His tier should directly influence Ultron's own due to "Vibranium" Ultron taking that combined attack for several seconds.

Ohh. The hype is real.

Regarding Vision, yeah, we probably should. Ultron as well, as he hasn't shown anything impressive.

Vision's laser has blasted through an ultronbot sure, Hawkeye did so as well with his hand through its chest apparently.

Ultron has tanked the combined force of Vision's featless laser, Iron Man's repulsor that has not done, to my knowledge, anything beyond blasting a human or a robot through a wall, and Thor's tiny lightning bolt.

Heck, Thor was smiling and joking at Ultron's expense for the climax.

Naitez · Feb 1, 2016

Thor's durability and stamina's impressive. Even after getting his face caved in by Kurse, it took him less than a minute to recover so he can run to Loki to see if he's okay. In comparison, the Hulk was kind of losing it in his fight against the Hulkbuster armor.

Gemmysaur · Feb 1, 2016

Natse said:
Thor's durability and stamina's impressive. Even after getting his face caved in by Kurse, it took him less than a minute to recover so he can run to Loki to see if he's okay. In comparison, the Hulk was kind of losing it in his fight against the Hulkbuster armor.

To be fair, Hulk has never faced anything that recovers midfight as well (Idk about Abomination though), as Hulkbuster had a mobile unit with it.

It all went downhill when Veronica was dropped from the sky though Tony still managed to drop Hulk beneath skyscraper rubble.

Hulk was kinda getting the lower end of the superhero treatment since he got the high end in Avengers 1. Thor and Hawkeye who got the low end in the first movie, got the spotlight in 2.

Heatforce · Feb 1, 2016

Oh. No wonder I never saw him as I am too poor to buy a game.

That aside, where was it announced that Hulk will be in Ragnarok? That's gotten me hyped up even more.

I hope they put the part from EMH where the creatures from the other realms were calling Hulk an ugly ogre or something.

You didn't miss anything. The dumb Thor game and the dumb green lantern game based off of the dumb green lantern film are all....DUMB!

ConsumingFire · Feb 1, 2016

Kind of off-topic, but can we edit Hulk's Intelligence level to say that he was at least smart enough to know how to pilot the Avenger's Quinjet and apply cloaking? I'd do so myself but the page is locked.

Naitez · Feb 1, 2016

Bruce Banner's intelligence is different from the Hulk's.

Gemmysaur · Feb 1, 2016

We didn't see Hulk pilot the jet. We didn't even see him apply the cloaking as we can still see the jet, just before Widow tells him they can't track him in stealth mode.

Hulk, however, is smart enough to close the chat at the very least.

Heatforce · Feb 1, 2016

I just realized....Odin doesn't have a profile.

Naitez · Feb 1, 2016

Odin hasn't done enough compared to his comics counterpart. His best feat is just somehow being from his bed in his castle to the broken Bifrost bridge in like half a minute to grab Thor's foot with one hand when he was falling.

ConsumingFire · Feb 1, 2016

Heatforce said:
I just realized....Odin doesn't have a profile.

His power is kind of difficult to gauge, tbh as he doesn't do a whole lot in either Thor movie... which is probably why.

Gemmysaur · Feb 1, 2016

His only notable power is to make the viewers cringe in delight every time he speaks.

Seriously, if they make an Odin movie and most of it is him talking, I'd still watch it.

ConsumingFire · Feb 1, 2016

off-topic: Interesting... I wonder if it's just my monitor, but none of the quote boxes are displaying text for some reason. Anyone else having this issue?

EDIT: Okay, so it fixed itself. Weird.

Gwynbleiddd · Feb 2, 2016

First calc https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kkapoios/MCU_calcs_-_part_1

These MCU characters should be scaled down

Maintenance worker

Maintenance worker

Maintenance worker

Maintenance worker

Maintenance worker

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