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Hajun VS Akuto Sai

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Sorry I was seeing the Fun and Games board. Then decided to look in other threads. And to be honest... this one seems like a stomp in Hajun's favor :(

Now if it were the another version...
 
How do you kill someone who will plot manipulation at level 1-A? Akuto could change the concept of taikyoku, change the function of tumor, change everything literally, this fight is a role for him to write.
 
Well since Akuto has the strongest relaint immortality on the site, High 1-A level, Hajun can't kill him.

Although, Akuto doesn't seem very impressive in terms of transcendece, which is all 1-A fights are about. So Akuto can't kill Hajun.

I vote inconclusive.

@Archaro

Ahh feats? Because that sounds like a whole lot of wank otherwise.
 
Feats? no need for it, the concepts in masada can be changed as long as it reaches its core, akuto can rewrite everything at level 1-a, so tell me, what led you to this conclusion that I am a "wanker"?
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
What about non lethal incapacitation? That's still a thing even on a 1-A scale </div>
Click to expand...
Remove tumor and taikyoku from hajun = maybe weaker than yato
 
>"What led you to this conclusion that I am a 'wanker'?"

>"Feats? No need for it..."

>"Akuto can rewrite everything at level 1-A..."

^That

And **** no.

1-A is a tier that has characters whose power spans beyond infinite degrees of infinity above baseline 1-A.

All 1-A fights come down to how much a 1-A transcends another, it is why 1-A matches from different franchises are almost impossible to find, so just saying that "Akuto can re-write anything with his Plot Manipulation" is bullshit.

You wouldn't say a 15-Dimensional being can plot-hax a win against a 16-Dimensional - or any higher-dimensional and/or beyond-dimensional being without feats, would you?

The same can be said here with Akuto's plot-hax affecting the entirety of Tier 1-A. You have to prove that Akuto is on the same level of transcendence, or can at least affect it, that Hajun's on, which by the way is an innumerable number which keeps increasing to infinity, so it needs to be really ******* high.
 
1-A tier, and have no skills that are in his tier what sort of lack of logic there is here?

The concept of something infinite in tier 1-A does not exist, power? space? time? dimensions? concepts? You can put an infinity above another infinite, in the end they will always be immeasurable.

And do not come with "bullshit" to me, do you think every 1-A fight is going to come down to just one transcending other? I would not say well this, is simply a limited mind for such subject, there are several ways to explore this.

Your dimensional/plot-hax example is as erroneous as the base of it, you speak of dimensional beings, but as far as I know, the struggle comes down to 1-A so try an example involving that particular tier.

And again, changing the concept of taikyoku and the tumor of the hajun is the easiest way to make him a god below the majority, just as he lost to the habaki when he had his tumor removed, without taikyokus the gods are absolutely nothing, they will come back to be like the prehistory, it will automatically be incapacitated from the very tier.

If your motive comes down to transcendence, then I feel you say, but a hadou god without taikyoku is the same as nothing.
 
One of the strongest 1-As against one of the strongest 1-As in his own verse at his weakest form...

No, even if Hajun somehow spammed his bugs at Akuto successfully, TLoI brings him back, an High 1-A entity, which woud likely then buff his stats while doing so to then curbstomp Hajun like a bug.

In short, Akuto curbstomps.
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
Or hajun doesent need to kill him and can just mind control him?
Click to expand...
Well, now that you mention that, he doesn´t resists that, so it could work.

But Akuto can also negate durability, so it can go either way.

Inconclusive for me.
 
>"And do not come with "bullshit" to me, do you think every 1-A fight is going to come down to just one transcending other? I would not say well this, is simply a limited mind for such subject, there are several ways to explore this"

Yes. Look at literally every 1-A fight on this site. Find one 1-A fight that came down to skill or abilities and not transcendence, I dare you.

From your logic, all 1-A's are the same and every 1-A can fight each other equally, which is ridiculous. Nyarlopthep vs. Hajun was considered a stomp for the Outer God because even the lowest of Outer Gods, Nyar, transcends the Great Old Ones like the Great Old Ones transcend humanity.

In other words, Nyar transcends other 1-As by infinite degrees of infinity, beyond Hajun's level, and thus it is a stomp.

>"Your dimensional/plot-hax example is as erroneous as the base of it, you speak of dimensional beings, but as far as I know, the struggle comes down to 1-A so try an example involving that particular tier."

This is a terrible rebuttal. I'm making a non-1-A comparison so it is completely invalid? Ludicrous.

A level of 1-A transcendence is similar in nature to the transcendence a higher-dimensional level has to a lower one. The same way a 2-D being can't affect a 3-D being, neither can a 1-A being with a lower level of transcendence face off against of 1-A being with a higher level of transcendence. At least not without the feats showing they can.

>"And again, changing the concept of taikyoku and the tumor of the hajun is the easiest way to make him a god below the majority, just as he lost to the habaki when he had his tumor removed, without taikyokus the gods are absolutely nothing, they will come back to be like the prehistory, it will automatically be incapacitated from the very tier."

1. Taikyoku is not a concept. It is the source of everything, including all concepts. That's a part of the cosmology in the Shinza Bansho verse that makes it 1-A.

2. The removal of the tumor was what brought Hajun down to a level where Habaki and co. could affect him, which does nothing but prove my points.

>"If your motive comes down to transcendence, then I feel you say, but a hadou god without taikyoku is the same as nothing."

Without a person's power source, they are nothing? Of course, that's true. That's true for anyone that relies on a power source. Including Akuto Sai, he is nothing without mana.

It is even on his page as a weakness:

"Only this powerful in the afterlife or possibly some other space completely filled with mana."
 
Archaron said:
Just as taikyoku changes the laws, it can also be changed, since it is said that taikyoku is a very old concept that forms and ascends a god.
Edit: Inconclusive fra for me now.
Click to expand...
Taikyoku is the power source of Hadou gods.

Hadou gods emanate their deepest desire or their law through their use of their Taikyoku. They are their laws and they will paint over the canvas that is creation in their color until a stronger god usurpers them. That's the change in laws.

And like I said, all concepts come from Taikyoku, it is one of the reasons why the verse is 1-A to begin with.
 
Wait... Didn't you think this fight is inconclusive? The guy already gave his opinion and you asked him, so... What's all about? I didn't think Sai could affect Hajun in his 1-A state, the other one clean the floor with Mara's body but I don't know. To be honest he could gave him a "bad time" (Megalovania plays) with his plot manipulation, since this is not a bar fight we could say that Hajun could have a bad time but ultimately beat Sai
 
Warren Valion said:
>"And again, changing the concept of taikyoku and the tumor of the hajun is the easiest way to make him a god below the majority, just as he lost to the habaki when he had his tumor removed, without taikyokus the gods are absolutely nothing, they will come back to be like the prehistory, it will automatically be incapacitated from the very tier."
1. Taikyoku is not a concept. It is the source of everything, including all concepts. That's a part of the cosmology in the Shinza Bansho verse that makes it 1-A.

2. The removal of the tumor was what brought Hajun down to a level where Habaki and co. could affect him, which does nothing but prove my points.

>"If your motive comes down to transcendence, then I feel you say, but a hadou god without taikyoku is the same as nothing."

Without a person's power source, they are nothing? Of course, that's true. That's true for anyone that relies on a power source. Including Akuto Sai, he is nothing without mana.

It is even on his page as a weakness:

"Only this powerful in the afterlife or possibly some other space completely filled with mana."

Taikyoku is the power source of Hadou gods.

Hadou gods emanate their deepest desire or their law through their use of their Taikyoku. They are their laws and they will paint over the canvas that is creation in their color until a stronger god usurpers them. That's the change in laws.

And like I said, all concepts come from Taikyoku, it is one of the reasons why the verse is 1-A to begin with
Click to expand...
  1. I speak in the concept of an idea, not something platonic. And prove to me that taikyoku is the source of everything, even because the throne itself generates creation and not the taikyoku which is just gasoline and at the same time the omnipotent law within that creation.
  2. Yes, everyone knows this, and I emphasized this, and I also pointed out that hajun without tumor is much weaker than most 1-A.
You forgot his second key, which I believe, does not have that weakness.

Again I reassessed this, I do not understand why you repeats it. But in itself, taikyoku is something, and this something can be manipulated, it has not always existed, and is the basis of the law of transcendence of gods. And prove me with scans that taikyoku is the source of everything.
 
1. Already been explained in others threads by ALRF IIRC, Im too lazy right now to search for it.

2. "hajun without tumor is much weaker than most 1-A." Oh yeah, remeber when he killed Marie, Ren, Reinhard and almost kills Merc (those who are considered top tiers in the 1-A tier) when the tumor was extracted? Good old times.

Also shit yeah, a High 1-A with such a weakness would be unbelievable and probably downgraded. Also, also, why bring the High 1-A key in a 1-A fight?

This last one is the same as your first point, wich is explained in the explanation page of the verse and has been expanded in other threads.

Anyway, Akuto is to weak to do something to Hajun but that type 8 is enough to bring this to inconclusive.
 
  1. Take time you want, that's not my problem.
  2. Hajun was born with the tumor lol, unless you can prove that he got it later, and that in the fight against ren, rein, and merc he did not use it, it's literally bullshit what you said.
The key high 1-A is based on one possibly, certainly not sure of right tier.
 
1. I am too lazy to search dozens, maybe hunderds of threads to find some quotes, boi thats crazy. I would do it if this was a CRT but for a battle that wont get added, where the asking party start wanking his character, no thanks.

2. Yeah, I know he was born with that, why bring it? or why do I have to prove that he "use" the tumor when it's not a weapon but the cause of his immeasurable taiji? I don't really know what you get from my post but I'm talking about the fight in wich Reinhard doesn't die too fast and finds the existence of the tumor, the same that gets reincarnated by Marie effectivily weakening Hajun to the point they are able to fight and kill Hajun but Ren, Rein, Marie die and Merc is almost dead, ascends to the throne and everything goes to Rea Route.

You just bring another key feats to justify the "lack of weakness" in his first key, I dont care what it could be but bringing feats from one key to another to make some backscaling is wrong.

If this fight somehow gets added, as almost everybody has said, this is incon.
 
Wow, I have never seen another user give the G-nights to someone else. I like you!

I going too, so good night people.
 
Tony di bugalu said:
Wow, I have never seen another user give the G-nights to someone else. I like you!
I going too, so good night people.
Click to expand...
I am a good-hearted person (although I may also be a bastard, something a Brazilian is great at being)
 
Archaron said:
  1. I speak in the concept of an idea, not something platonic. And prove to me that 'taikyoku' is the source of everything, even because the throne itself generates creation and not the taikyoku which is just gasoline and at the same time the omnipotent law within that creation.
  2. Yes, everyone knows this, and I emphasized this, and I also pointed out that hajun without tumor is much weaker than most 1-A.
You forgot his second key, which I believe, does not have that weakness.

Again I reassessed this, I do not understand why you repeats it. But in itself, taikyoku is something, and this something can be manipulated, it has not always existed, and is the basis of the law of transcendence of gods. And prove me with scans that taikyoku is the source of everything.
Click to expand...
1.

Boi, are you serious?

Look at this quote from the terminology section on the Masadaverse page:

"Taikyoku: The source of power for Atziluth users, Taikyoku is the source of all reality, including dimensional space itself."

There you go.

If you want scans, then I'm sorry to say that I don't have them. I don't own KKK and I don't have the ability to read Japanese.

But the explanations were all done by ALRF and other knowledgeable members of the franchise who do.

2.

>"Hajun without tumor is much weaker than most 1-A."

......what?

Even without the tumor, Hajun is still like the strongest Hadou God, and any Hadou and Gudou God is stronger than every other 1-A on this site sans Umineko and Mythos 1-As.

3.

His second key is High 1-A. So a lack of such a weakness from merging with TLOI is completely irrelevant since we are using Akuto's 1-A key as it would be a complete ******* stomp otherwise.


@Anonimaço

Thank you.
 
I still feel like Akuto's reasoning sounds wanked.

The infinite hierarchy of stories sounds more like High 1-B to me as nothing in the description makes it 1-A. Only if Akuto Sai transcending the hierarchy would he be just baseline 1-A.

TLoI would be 1 level of transcendence higher.
 
The real cal howard said:
Hajun's at a different level of transcendence than Akuto. Hajun stomps.
Click to expand...
Yes, a weaker one.

Akuto is the 2nd strongest 1-A, Hajun is 4th, so to keep it simple, Akuto sees Hajun as a tier 11 thing and then just erases him casually.
 
Warren Valion said:
I still feel like Akuto's reasoning sounds wanked.
The infinite hierarchy of stories sounds more like High 1-B to me as nothing in the description makes it 1-A. Only if Akuto Sai transcending the hierarchy would he be just baseline 1-A.

TLoI would be 1 level of transcendence higher.
Click to expand...
@Bobsica ^
 
Since you and Cal, and without an argument that doesn't count as fanboyism of a certain character... this fight is inconclusive by majority
 
I don't think you get why Azathoth is where he's at. Stuff like that is only part of the CM cosmology. Ask Don'tTalk about Akuto I guess, he made the file.
 
Wokistan said:
I don't think you get why Azathoth is where he's at. Stuff like that is only part of the CM cosmology. Ask Don'tTalk about Akuto I guess, he made the file.
Click to expand...
Fine, I´ll do that, after all, I only know the cosmologies somewhat, not the actual plot.
 
Bobsican said:
The Law of Identity is in an infinite outerversal hierarchy, comparable to Azathoth and the Creator from Umineko.

The reason why Akuto isn´t High 1-A is because he´s inferior to TLoI, even leaving the High 1-A key at a side.
Click to expand...
Did you not read what I wrote?

I am questioning the validity of the "infinite outerversal hierarchy".


Unlike The Star Maker with his Infinite Hierarchy of Cosmoses, Akuto Sai's Infinite Story Hierarchy doesn't have a 1-A realm or story at the bottom, or at least it doesn't from the AP description.

However, since the difference between stories is seemingly a reality-fiction difference, unlike The Cosmos Hierarchy with Star Maker, Akuto's hierarchy seems to have a transcendence difference to it. So there's that.

The thing is, I believe this difference to be the difference between higher dimensions, not outerversal layers/levels.

So Akuto Sai should be High 1-B or baseline 1-A at best from how his current AP justification is written.
 
Your only proof to say that Akuto is stronger is a thread where no knowledgeable member of Masada nor Ichiban where discussing about who is stronger without proof and only guessing plus a random statement of the Throne being High 1-B.

Yeah, sure, Akuto stomps Hajun and no proof required. Ignore the level of transcendece Hajun has over other 1-A to the point they are Humans against Gods. Ignore the little to almost none transcendence Akuto has and put him at one of the strongest 1-A.
 
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