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Completely unrelated to the discussion, but that's not really how that battle went at all, you missed the whole reason Othinus was doing the hundred billion world torture. Besides, Othinus couldn't erase Touma from existence because she couldn't erase IB.Aurasuke said:Probably Othinius due to feats, the thing about the whole spear throwing thing is that she did it to let Kamijou win, she could have just warped away his existence, but he had too much plot armor and was also the main character.
Magic Gods can do a lot of stuff with their powers: erase the universe, control time and space, resurrect the dead, control all living and dead beings in the universe, play pinball with galaxies, turn the sky orange or make 2+2 equal 5. The jump in power from Fiamma to Othinus was pretty ridiculous, and the other Magic Gods are much stronger than her. There's a link to a Magic God respect thread in the verse page, and while some of the conclusions it draws are wrong (because it does things like ignore Thor's statement about controlling the planet so as to interpret his "world" as "the Universe" or actually believing St. Germain's words) you can check it for the actual novel parts talking about Magic Gods.Celestial Pegasus said:Cant othinus manipulate reality and causality?If so i dont think GER is gonna even work on her.
LazyHunter said:Magic Gods can do a lot of stuff with their powers: erase the universe, control time and space, resurrect the dead, control all living and dead beings in the universe, play pinball with galaxies, turn the sky orange or make 2+2 equal 5. The jump in power from Fiamma to Othinus was pretty ridiculous, and the other Magic Gods are much stronger than her. There's a link to a Magic God respect thread in the verse page, and while some of the conclusions it draws are wrong (because it does things like ignore Thor's statement about controlling the planet so as to interpret his "world" as "the Universe" or actually believing St. Germain's words) you can check it for the actual novel parts talking about Magic Gods.Celestial Pegasus said:Cant othinus manipulate reality and causality?If so i dont think GER is gonna even work on her.
I would consider it the most likely outcome, yes. My vote goes to her.Gabriel 00 said:So, Othinus wins? Any objections?
Well, i do have one, the thing is, if we take Giorno's Stand to the most logical, this is not the battle that Othinus can win so easily, because it contradicts many things, you have explained that Touma was able to survive a universal destruction from Othinus, but Giorno wouldn't?.Gabriel 00 said:So, Othinus wins? Any objections?
Now i may not be the most knowledgable on index but from what i know the thing in touma`s arm is some sort of powerful entity that even magic gods cant mess with but the difference between giorno and touma is that touma has been shown negate attacks from magic gods while giorno hasnt.Giorno`s power is basically causality manipulation which makes it completely useless on beings who are acausal and exist outside time and space and not to mention othinus herself can manipulate reality and causality.This is off topic but what happenned to giorno when pucci destroyed the universe?That as always bugged me by the nature of his powers shouldnt the universe`s destruction been negated or is it that it did negate it but only for giorno and as such he is roaming around in the new universe.Creatox122212 said:Well, i do have one, the thing is, if we take Giorno's Stand to the most logical, this is not the battle that Othinus can win so easily, because it contradicts many things, you have explained that Touma was able to survive a universal destruction from Othinus, but Giorno wouldn't?.Gabriel 00 said:So, Othinus wins? Any objections?
If we take Novel Giorno feats, he was able to tank an universal destruction of 36 times, alongside Rohan and Novel Kars, so, this makes him as an abstract being who cannot be killed so easily, I don't think even Gungnir can tresspass GER, mostly because of the fact that the supposed "Effect" of that spear is reduced to the point of zero.
Every single action has an effect, but the thing is, for everything Othinus tries to do, she gets nullified in all the intents, outcomes, etc. naturally, people tend to use feats when it comes to comparing the power of other characters, which is totally not the point of JJBA, since almost everyone in it only beats humans with powered guardian ghosts, so taking things as "feats" in JJBA could be debated.
If i take Novel Giorno w/GER this one definitely wins, if i take Canon Giorno however, I'm still on his side eitherway, if he can tank someone who erased time as was able to act against things that shouldn't be, then this is a win for Giorno.
I chalk it up to araki just forgetting that giorno could stop it well he purposely forgot that giorno could he kinda wrote himself into a wall.GER is probably no the most broken ability in jojo bizarre adventure if jotaro had called giorno for help that would stop pucchi from achieving his his goal and that would be the end of it and he couldnt have that happen so he just ignored that giorno would stop it.CrossverseCrisis said:To answer your off-topic question, Celestial: No one knows if Giorno survived ot not when he had GER. It's been talked about if GER was still around with GioGio, even.
Celestial Pegasus said:Now i may not be the most knowledgable on index but from what i know the thing in touma`s arm is some sort of powerful entity that even magic gods cant mess with but the difference between giorno and touma is that touma has been shown negate attacks from magic gods while giorno hasnt.Giorno`s power is basically causality manipulation which makes it completely useless on beings who are acausal and exist outside time and space and not to mention othinus herself can manipulate reality and causality.This is off topic but what happenned to giorno when pucci destroyed the universe?That as always bugged me by the nature of his powers shouldnt the universe`s destruction been negated or is it that it did negate it but only for giorno and as such he is roaming around in the new universe.Creatox122212 said:Well, i do have one, the thing is, if we take Giorno's Stand to the most logical, this is not the battle that Othinus can win so easily, because it contradicts many things, you have explained that Touma was able to survive a universal destruction from Othinus, but Giorno wouldn't?.Gabriel 00 said:So, Othinus wins? Any objections?
If we take Novel Giorno feats, he was able to tank an universal destruction of 36 times, alongside Rohan and Novel Kars, so, this makes him as an abstract being who cannot be killed so easily, I don't think even Gungnir can tresspass GER, mostly because of the fact that the supposed "Effect" of that spear is reduced to the point of zero.
Every single action has an effect, but the thing is, for everything Othinus tries to do, she gets nullified in all the intents, outcomes, etc. naturally, people tend to use feats when it comes to comparing the power of other characters, which is totally not the point of JJBA, since almost everyone in it only beats humans with powered guardian ghosts, so taking things as "feats" in JJBA could be debated.
If i take Novel Giorno w/GER this one definitely wins, if i take Canon Giorno however, I'm still on his side eitherway, if he can tank someone who erased time as was able to act against things that shouldn't be, then this is a win for Giorno.
What i was trying to say with giorno not having being shown to negate magic gods is that he hasnt been shown to affect beings who are on that sort of level of power.And you dont have to explain how GER works i have read all of jojo bizarre adventure and am up to date with jojolion,i know exactly how it works what i am saying is that its causuality manipulation basically a higher form of reality manipulation where for every cause there is an effect and giorno can just erase the effect or vise versa but that doesnt work on beings who are acausal and exist outside causality now i am not sure if othinus is acausal,i know the true magic gods are because they existed outside time and distance but i do know othinus herself also has causaulity manipulation which is why i am not sure GER will even work on here.Creatox122212 said:No one knows, since Giorno didn't appeared in Part 6 at all, it's also been discused however Giorno had GER during those events, so who knows.Celestial Pegasus said:Now i may not be the most knowledgable on index but from what i know the thing in touma`s arm is some sort of powerful entity that even magic gods cant mess with but the difference between giorno and touma is that touma has been shown negate attacks from magic gods while giorno hasnt.Giorno`s power is basically causality manipulation which makes it completely useless on beings who are acausal and exist outside time and space and not to mention othinus herself can manipulate reality and causality.This is off topic but what happenned to giorno when pucci destroyed the universe?That as always bugged me by the nature of his powers shouldnt the universe`s destruction been negated or is it that it did negate it but only for giorno and as such he is roaming around in the new universe.Creatox122212 said:Well, i do have one, the thing is, if we take Giorno's Stand to the most logical, this is not the battle that Othinus can win so easily, because it contradicts many things, you have explained that Touma was able to survive a universal destruction from Othinus, but Giorno wouldn't?.Gabriel 00 said:So, Othinus wins? Any objections?
If we take Novel Giorno feats, he was able to tank an universal destruction of 36 times, alongside Rohan and Novel Kars, so, this makes him as an abstract being who cannot be killed so easily, I don't think even Gungnir can tresspass GER, mostly because of the fact that the supposed "Effect" of that spear is reduced to the point of zero.
Every single action has an effect, but the thing is, for everything Othinus tries to do, she gets nullified in all the intents, outcomes, etc. naturally, people tend to use feats when it comes to comparing the power of other characters, which is totally not the point of JJBA, since almost everyone in it only beats humans with powered guardian ghosts, so taking things as "feats" in JJBA could be debated.
If i take Novel Giorno w/GER this one definitely wins, if i take Canon Giorno however, I'm still on his side eitherway, if he can tank someone who erased time as was able to act against things that shouldn't be, then this is a win for Giorno.
In the novel however, he did survived it, 36 times to be exact, alongside Rohan and Novel Kars.
Of course you didn't saw how Giorno nullified the Magic Gods intents of attack, since he didn't appeared in TOARU at all, so you can't take this as a point of comparison, but rather, takes it as how Touma and Giorno powers diferes but are similar to each other.
IB nullifies any sort of fictional thing in the world, or at least things that shouldn't be logical at all, GER nullifies the cause and effect of each other, what it greatly differenciates these two characters is how they use their powers and the status of each one.
In this case, you can kill Touma with a simple shotgun, since it's pretty logical by itself, or rather, you could kill him with a gang of at least 30 to 50 people without too much problems, so only "fictional" things are the thing Touma can beat in the most common sense.
Giorno however, is not like that, his existence w/GER is also a paradox, since all the Stats of GER are "NONE", this means that he exists and doesn't exists at a continuity of Space-Time, and basically reality, it was also shown that he was also immune to King Crimson precog, which means that GER discarded the possibility of him being beat, which makes him an acausal stand who trascends Space/Time, and Probability/Casuality, since they are each sides from the same coin.
That's why she won't be able to do anything at all, even if she tries to use her reality/causality powers she won't be able to, since afaik, she doesn't have a way to alter a zero paradox at all, that's why i think Giorno still takes the cake in this battle.
Aurasuke said:@ creator. To be honest, Othinius could just alter his powers and make them non existent so that he could do nothing. She was more than capable of creating beings like Fiamma who literally has an instant win button and allows him to defeat any opponent (only defeated by Aleister who is tier 2 and omnipresent, after he was weakened by the main protagonist touma), and Accelerator (considered the main plan of Aleister, most likely to be used to take down the magic gods sometime later) from literally nothing.
Even if he is considered a paradox, Othinius could simply remove his powers altogether. 100% Othinius is able to perform = any action with 100% certainty (except destroying the other magic gods probably in their unweakened form).
Aurasuke said:I suppose for these kinds of debates it's like saying one character from universe has an unbreakable shield, while the other one has a sword that can pierce through anything.
Even if it's stated by the author, we can't automatically assume his power can negate every type of attack. Otherwise characters like Demonbane or even Kami Tenchi would be unable to kill him.
In cases like these, I believe it's best to use feats in order to justify the magnitude of his power.
Pretty Much, yes, neither of them can do shit either.Aurasuke said:On a conceptual level though, Giorno cannot be killed by Kami Tenchi. Should we call that a tie too?
Ok now your just wanking giorno your saying an omnipotent being cant beat giorno you clearly dont know what omnipotent means i will just link this page for you here.https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Omnipotence Being omnipotent means you can do whatever you want and your the be all end all and you think causality manipulation will work on a omnipotent being?Creatox122212 said:Pretty Much, yes, neither of them can do shit either.Aurasuke said:On a conceptual level though, Giorno cannot be killed by Kami Tenchi. Should we call that a tie too?
Soooooo..... You're basically saying that Giorno is Tier 0. And since Novel Kars is above him, he's now Tier -1 now, right? I can't believe what i'm reading right now.Creatox122212 said:Pretty Much, yes, neither of them can do shit either.Aurasuke said:On a conceptual level though, Giorno cannot be killed by Kami Tenchi. Should we call that a tie too?
He's omnipotent in my heart lol.NotEvenHuman said:Soooooo..... You're basically saying that Giorno is Tier 0. And since Novel Kars is above him, he's now Tier -1 now, right? I can't believe what i'm reading right now.Creatox122212 said:Pretty Much, yes, neither of them can do shit either.Aurasuke said:On a conceptual level though, Giorno cannot be killed by Kami Tenchi. Should we call that a tie too?
I know, I was joking, sorry for that lol.LordAizenSama said:@Creatox thats one of the greatest NLF claims i've seen recently, lol.
Agreed.Aurasuke said:So basically Othinius wins due to feats, if we're going conceptually Fiamma solos because his hand has a win button so he automatically wins and can negate even your ability to negate attacks.