Kaguya stats equivalence upgrade.

Devoyant · Jul 21, 2018

So here's something that just got to me.

Kaguya's ETSB was calc to be at Large-planet level.

She used the chakra she absorbed to form ETSB, so essentially the chakra she absorbed was an equivalent of Large-planet level. It took about one and half page for this to happen.

Preceding this, specifically when she was in the process of getting returned, it was shown Madara's body, (which was acting as a proxy) absorbing chakra (and they were actually much more than what she absorbed to form ETSB) from those trapped on infinite Tsukuyomi. And his body continued absorbing chakra for the next seven pages.

If we consider the fact the absorbed chakra she poured into her attack made it Large-planet level, the absorbed chakra she took into herself when she returned should make her stats have a common ground.

Additionally, the fact she absorbed more should mean she's at least Large-planet+ in all stats.

This makes sense seeing as Madara, who is regarded as planet level on his profile, couldn't stand the sheer volume of chakra his body was absorbing.

Possible rebuttals.

"If Kaguya has Large-planet+ durability or attack potency, why didn't she oneshot Naruto and Sasuke?"

Because everytime she change the time-space of her dimension, it took a ridiculous amounts of chakra. She only had to used the technique thrice, to be low on chakra. There's also the fact she didn't want to kill Naruto or Sasuke at first, and only decided to when she saw Naruto was a problem. At that time, she was already low on chakra.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Jul 21, 2018

For possible rebuttals, you could also in the fact that the fight was at least decently PIS ridden.

Remaining neutral for now but i'll support the points that seem the most stable.

The_real_cal_howard · Jul 21, 2018

>Large planet+

>+

Lolno

Frantzy12 · Jul 21, 2018

lmao no

LordGinSama · Jul 21, 2018

It's time to stop.

LordGriffin1000 · Jul 21, 2018

I've been through this argument before and I've been against it considered this is clearly her strongest move and her other attacks don't compare... At least Imo.

Devoyant · Jul 21, 2018

LordGriffin1000 said:
I've been through this argument before and I've been against it considered this is clearly her strongest move and her other attacks don't compare... At least Imo.

Actually, ETSB isn't her most strongest attack.

Amenominaka is just as strong as ETSB for the reason that it's an ability that enables her to change the time-space/surroundings of her entire dimension (her dimension could harbor a planet, and moons).

Thus; Amenominaka: changes the time-space of her dimension. ETSB: ETSB destroy said dimension.

That's pretty even in terms of energy spent. It should be noted the word "world" in this context means dimension as proven when the Databook stated Kaguya's ETSB was going to turn the world to naught.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Jul 21, 2018

"Changing the time-space of the world" is clear hyperbole, Zetsu and Kaguya are referring to whenever they hop to different dimensions. If Kaguya was really able to do this, she'd have reality warping ages ago.

Plus it would be a hax feat which doesnt scale to her AP. ETSB would still be the strongest when it comes to actual destruction and AP.

Devoyant · Jul 21, 2018

Knightofannihilation666 said:
It's time to stop.

Lemme guess, this isn't Bleach enough for you?

-A certain amount of chakra absorbed was enough to form a Large-planet planet attack.

-Kaguya had initially absorbed more than the amount used to form a Large-planet level attack, making the initial chakra absorbed Large-planet level+

What's illogical about this?

Devoyant · Jul 21, 2018

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
"Changing the time-space of the world" is clear hyperbole, Zetsu and Kaguya are referring to whenever they hop to different dimensions. If Kaguya was really able to do this, she'd have reality warping ages ago.
Plus it would be a hax feat which doesnt scale to her AP. ETSB would still be the strongest when it comes to actual destruction and AP.

Uhmm, no. It was mentioned four times Kaguya changes/rewrite the time-space/surroundings of her dimensions X X X X

I don't see how you can present a hyperbolic claim four times by different sources namely; Kakashi, Kaguya and Black Zetsu, and the Databook.

Furthermore, it was visibly shown how she change her dimensions. You can clearly see when the time-space is changed, Sasuke's position isn't changed. Neither was Kakashi, Obito, Naruto or Sakura.

"Plus it would be a hax feat which doesnt scale to her AP"

Hax or not, it doesn't change the fact the ability requires tremendous amounts of chakra—chakra that can easily be used for AP.

Golden_Void · Jul 21, 2018

I'm a micrometer away from closing this conjecture.

Next we will have planet level Hinata via absorbing Hamura chakra.

Devoyant · Jul 21, 2018

Golden Void said:
I'm a micrometer away from closing this conjecture.
Next we will have planet level Hinata via absorbing Hamura chakra.

Can you actually debunk this though, that way I wouldn't feel hard done by?

Also, using Hinata's case is flawed. She didn't absorb Hamura's chakra. They only mentioned she was the Byakugan princess, and descendant of Hamura, so she shares chakra with him.

However, someone like Naruto was blessed with Hagoromo's chakra, and that made him to be regarded as planet level, so your logic ironically helps my case.

Devoyant · Jul 21, 2018

By the way, I don't know how this is a conjecture when it's based on the events from the Manga.

The Manga showed Kaguya absorbed more chakra, than the chakra she used to form ETSB.

That means Kaguya during her returned > ETSB.

Maybe you don't know what conjecture means.

Golden_Void · Jul 21, 2018

Except if you watched The Last, Toneri absorbed so much of Naruto's chakra ("all of my chakra is being sucked out") that he couldn't maintain his Kurama chakra mode, and he was noticeably weakened. Hinata then lended Naruto her chakra, and he was once again able to stand and use KCM against a destabilized Toneri.

Your argument regarding Kaguya and chakra heavily relies on the visual cues that show more chakra erupting from the ground when Madara was still himself, than when Naruto destabilized her in her dimensions.

Naruto only stated that Madara had even more chakra than the Juubi, and considering he only said that after Madara became a perfect jinchuuriki + absorbing the god tree and absorbing IT energy doesn't put him any higher than what he's rated at. At most that makes him at least planet level, which doesn't matter anyway since he can't do anything in that form, plus he's technically no longer Madara.

You're also assuming since we're shown Kaguya absorbing seemingly less chakra for the ETSB than Kaguya absorbed in her formation, that she wasn't already using the chakra she possessed with the chakra she was shown absorbing.

Kaguya would have to use almost all of the energy present in her ETSB each time she uses her dimensional hax for your statement to hold true that doing so weakens her from 5-A to 5-B, enabling Naruto and Sasuke to fight her.

Except we know ETSB is the most power she's ever wielded, she's been mutilated repeatedly, and right off the bat after her first dimension switch, Naruto and Sasuke could hold their own, and they weren't fresh like Kaguya was.

Furthermore, if we take things as literal as you do, creating a new dimension via ETSB > changing a pre-existing dimension.

IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 · Jul 21, 2018

Have to agree with Kukui's interpretation of Amenominaka and Golden Void's opinion of the whole matter after his thorough rebuttal.

Dzhindzholia · Jul 21, 2018

We can not scale one time attack to casual strikes.

Amenominaka just teleports everyone in its are of effect to different dimension.Yes it is chakra taxing jutsu but not on 5-A scale.

Devoyant · Jul 21, 2018

Golden Void said:
Except if you watched The Last, Toneri absorbed so much of Naruto's chakra ("all of my chakra is being sucked out") that he couldn't maintain his Kurama chakra mode, and he was noticeably weakened. Hinata then lended Naruto her chakra, and he was once again able to stand and use KCM against a destabilized Toneri.
Your argument regarding Kaguya and chakra heavily relies on the visual cues that show more chakra erupting from the ground when Madara was still himself, than when Naruto destabilized her in her dimensions.

Naruto only stated that Madara had even more chakra than the Juubi, and considering he only said that after Madara became a perfect jinchuuriki + absorbing the god tree and absorbing IT energy doesn't put him any higher than what he's rated at. At most that makes him at least planet level, which doesn't matter anyway since he can't do anything in that form, plus he's technically no longer Madara.

You're also assuming since we're shown Kaguya absorbing seemingly less chakra for the ETSB than Kaguya absorbed in her formation, that she wasn't already using the chakra she possessed with the chakra she was shown absorbing.

Kaguya would have to use almost all of the energy present in her ETSB each time she uses her dimensional hax for your statement to hold true that doing so weakens her from 5-A to 5-B, enabling Naruto and Sasuke to fight her.

Except we know ETSB is the most power she's ever wielded, she's been mutilated repeatedly, and right off the bat after her first dimension switch, Naruto and Sasuke could hold their own, and they weren't fresh like Kaguya was.

Furthermore, if we take things as literal as you do, creating a new dimension via ETSB > changing a pre-existing dimension.

Your first paragraph is a quintessential of PIS nothing more. Hinata replenished Naruto chakra, but that's not because she absorbed Hamura chakra.

Your second paragraph doesn't align with my point. I didn't use the sole consideration more chakra was shown erupting from the ground, but the interval at which they completely erupt from the ground. It took a whole seven pages, whereas the chakra used to materialise ETSB took just one and a half page.

Your third paragraph doesn't even address my point/it's misconstrued. I didn't suggest the event of chakra erupting accounts to Madara's DC. He couldn't even stand the chakra because of the sheer volume.

"that she wasn't already using the chakra she possessed with the chakra she was shown absorbing."

The databook stated ETSB was solely made from the chakra she absorbed from those trapped on Infinite Tsukuyomi.

Your fifth paragraph is partly true. While it would require the total energy of her ETSB to use Amenominaka, her overall tier isn't mitigated considering the energy expended is lesser than her overarching energy, which is proven seeing as she was able to use Amenominaka several times. Moreover isn't it a rule for a character to decrease in strength as the fight goes? Unless you're saying a character's potency suppose to increase or remain the same after an elapsed time, which is completely unreasonable.

The only time her body was perforated conventionally was during when she was extremely low on chakra. The other times where due to hax, and incompatibility. Kakashi severed her arm due to Kamui, and Naruto's Super Bijuu Rasenshuriken was basically her achilles heal due to her Bijuu chakra reacting negatively with Naruto's attack.

"creating a new dimension via ETSB > changing a pre-existing dimension."

Actually, that's wrong. It was stated Kaguya's might and speed was exponentially greater than before when she absorbed chakra for the second time, implying the chakra she absorbed was enough to create ETSB, and amped her strength and speed. Meanwhile, everytime she used Amenominaka, her stats were greatly reduced due to the tremendous amount of chakra spent. Essentially what am saying here is the chakra she absorbed the second time, which wasn't more than the chakra she absorbed the first time was enough to create ETSB/amped her strength and speed. Whereas, when Kaguya used Amenominaka, and her speed and strength was mitigated.

In addition, Naruto was pegged at planet level because he absorbed Hagoromo's chakra. Kaguya basically has the same premise, yet people are nit-picking at events that was clearly PIS. I could use the same logic of Hinata replenishing Naruto, to rubbish his planet level conclusion..withal it's ironic how my exposition is labeled a conjecture, yet there's literally nothing that suggested, much more proved ETSB was Kaguya's strongest attack.

Devoyant · Jul 21, 2018

Dzhindzholia said:
We can not scale one time attack to casual strikes.

Amenominaka just teleports everyone in its are of effect to different dimension.Yes it is chakra taxing jutsu but not on 5-A scale.

Amenominaka is not a teleportation jutsu. There are several scans cited above that proves the case.

Yomotsu Hirasaka is her teleportation jutsu.

If we condone your point, wouldn't it be unreasonable she has two teleportation tech?

Devoyant · Jul 21, 2018

And by the way, am not scaling her ETSB with her casual attacks. I'm scaling the chakra she absorbed initially to the chakra she absorbed to form ETSB.

Dzhindzholia · Jul 21, 2018

Amenominaka is not a teleportation jutsu.

It is.

By using her third eye, Kaguya is able to teleport herself and anyone without a certain range to one of her dimensions.

YungManzi · Jul 21, 2018

I don't agree with the upgrade...however I do think Reality Warping is not out of the question for Kaguya.

With Kakashi saying she can rewright aspects of her dimensions, similar to genjutsu, and ETSB obliterating and reshaping her dimensions....Theres also the fact that she can control the envirement around her to some extent.

I suggested this before in the naruto abilities thread, I don't think anybody actually commented on it...

Devoyant · Jul 21, 2018

Dzhindzholia said:
Amenominaka is not a teleportation jutsu.
It is.

By using her third eye, Kaguya is able to teleport herself and anyone without a certain range to one of her dimensions.

Wait, did you just quote that from the wiki? Lmao.

Can you actually post where that was stated in the Manga, or any other canonical material?

Because there are four different sources all which confirmed she changes the world/time-space. I don't know how someone can say differently ._.

Dzhindzholia · Jul 21, 2018

Wait, did you just quote that from the wiki? Lmao.

TF?Why you act like the wiki isn't a reliable source?You know,the wiki gets information from other official sources like the manga and databook.

Mindovin · Jul 21, 2018

Yomotsu Hirasaka create portals Amenominaka is intant teleportation that covers certain range.

Golden_Void · Jul 21, 2018

Cliffnotes

Kaguya gets repeatedly beaten by 5-Bs, even by her sons where we have no indication she spammed her dimension hax

ETSB is her strongest move because nothing else contradicts it, regardless of chakra level. Why potentially risk getting sealed when you have enough chakra to spam multiple ETSBs?

BZ stating she got exponentially more powerful is also tied to Kaguya absorbing the smallest quantity of chakra when compared to Madara taking in chakra for 7 pages. This shows that either size doesn't matter, or it more likely means shes more powerful than she was when she was beat up and combat-worn just moments before.

Devoyant · Jul 22, 2018

@Golden Void

Like someone said earlier, her battle with Naruto and Sasuke had elements of PIS. Not to mention, she tanked most of Naruto physical assaults, and completely evaded all of Sasuke's. She only got mutilated by unconventional abilities. I'm willing to accept her durability doesn't scale from the chakra she absorbed after she began using her dimensional hax. Also, she amalgamated with the Juubi to battle her sons. The very reason she did this was due to most of her chakra being dispersed amongst her sons, meaning she didn't have enough chakra.

"ETSB is her strongest move because nothing else contradicts it"

That's like saying Naruto's TBR + Odama Rasenshuriken is his strongest technique, because nothing contradicts it.

There's nothing special about ETSB. It's simply a truth-seeking orb, but only with greater chakra. When she fought her sons, it wasn't even hinted she used it, which is stupid seeing as it is her "most strongest attack" and she was defeated.

BZ saying Kaguya's speed and strength was amped, even while she used ETSB doesn't proves size doesn't matter, you missed the point. It proves she spents more chakra using Amenominaka, since the results of using it mitigated her strength and speed, whereas using ETSB didn't even affect her physical stats. In fact, her stats were increased proving the chakra of ETSB was negligible. Another reason that proves this; is the fact Kaguya's dimensions are vastly apart. So if we consider the distance from where she summon them plus when she spatially changes the time-space of her dimension with another, the chakra spent should logically be > ETSB.

Devoyant · Jul 22, 2018

Dzhindzholia said:
Wait, did you just quote that from the wiki? Lmao.

TF?Why you act like the wiki isn't a reliable source?You know,the wiki gets information from other official sources like the manga and databook.

Wiki doesn't supersedes the Manga or Databook. I'll have a word with Seelentau to edit that page, since it's clearly spreading misinformation.

Dzhindzholia · Jul 22, 2018

Create a blog about this. I am against one time attack to be scaled to casual strikes,unless you can prove that her ETSB is casual.

AstralKing7 · Jul 22, 2018

I dont agree with this but you guys are wrong on Kaguya's dimension teleportation. It may say she rewrites the dimensions but it shouldnt be taken literal. That jutsu is instant, its so fast that it looks like she is rewriting space time around her. If its not on her profile thats its instant than it obviously should

Also if it was reality warping i dont see the problem with it. Hag all ready has realizty warping and the Boruto manga has shown reality warping. The fact that she is 5B means there shouldnt be a problem with her having the ability to warp reality on all of her dimensions since we accept them as only planet size with a few moons

ProfessorKukui4Life · Jul 22, 2018

I agree with Astral. The technique being instantaneous makes it appear as if the dimensions are being reality warped and changed to the perspective of those who get BFR'd, like Kakashi, who's never experienced that kind of ability before. Basically, it's not reality warping but just really good BFR hax.

Also, if we were to accept this, then you'd also have to pretty much accept Kaguya only has one dimension instead of 6. A single dimension where she'd be changing the settings each time she wanted to "reality warp" them. In other words, instead of having 6 dimensions to hop between with her BFR, she'd have only 1 dimension where her "reality warping" would be changing between 6 different settings. It's either one or the other, not both. And we know this is wrong since Sasuke, Obito and Sakura, and Naruto and Kakashi roamed in multiple of her spaces at once. Plus Sasuke traveled through multiple while on his mission to destroy Kaguya's remains so there's definitely not just 1 dimension.

Mindovin · Jul 22, 2018

Kaguya has more than 1 dimension as she sends Sasuke to desert world while fighting against Naruto in her Ice world.

YungManzi · Jul 22, 2018

@Professor and Astral

My Reality Warping point was a lot more than just the Kakashi statement which was reall more-so used as supporting evidence.

1. Would obliterating and reshaping her dimensions not be considered realitry warping? The only way we can downplay those statements is to consider them hyperbole or disregard them completely because ETSB was never employed on-screen.

2. While inside of her dimensions she could manipulate the environement around her. That might not be reality warping, but it isn't even listed on her profile....Naruto even has a statement saying "She's one with nature" iirc.

Edit: Obviously Kaguya has more than one dimension.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Jul 22, 2018

I was addressing the OP's argument, not yours Yung

That said...I don't think her ETSB should count as reality warping since its the literal only thing that makes her AP higher than normal 5-B, 5-A. The way I see it, it can't be both AP and hax.

The latter is most likely just really good nature manipulation, though it could boost her range given she manipulated said environement when she wasn't even in the same dimension anymore.

AstralKing7 · Jul 22, 2018

Her estb should actually be hax and ap tho. Hax because of the fact that it is a tsb and ap because it was gonna destroy her dimension. I understand what your saying with it not being hax because of reality warping tho. Just wanted to say the other part at the top so anyone in the future doesnt referencet that as a reason to say ESTB doesnt have the hax of a regular tsb

I agree with the nature manipulation. I personally wondered if she becomes omnipresent or nigh omnipresent when using it tbh lol. Leo Regulas fused with nature i think and became omnipresent or nigh omnipresent

Golden_Void · Jul 22, 2018

"She only got mutilated by unconventional abilities."

Naruto literally tore her arm off with his chakra arm.

"That's like saying Naruto's TBR + Odama Rasenshuriken is his strongest technique, because nothing contradicts it."

If nothing else contradicts it.

It also depends on the technique used. Chakra usage doesn't automatically equate to AP. For example Obito used Sakura's 100 healings chakra (which was greater than SOSP Naruto clone chakra) to kamui across Kaguya's dimensions, which was the bare minimum since they weren't his dimensions.

Additionally, we can't just say because Kaguya used more power for dimension hax than ETSB, that she has to be greater in all stats. She used it twice before BZ made a comment on her chakra, and a total of four times before she got more IT chakra and used ETSB. We can't really compare her chakra levels with something she used twice against something she used once, that's a false eqivalence.

Golden_Void · Jul 22, 2018

Also how does Kaguya change entire battlefields when she only brought team 7 + Obito to her dimensions? Sounds like selective teleportation or short-ranged TP.

AstralKing7 · Jul 22, 2018

its instant teleportation and who ever is in the range of her eye gets taken with her. Even the DB states this, even if you say its selective teleportation its still instant.

Devoyant · Jul 22, 2018

@AstralKing7

Say when does the interval of a process determines the "verb" used to describe said process? Just because Amenominaka is instantaneous, doesn't the effect of the jutsu can't be described as "rewriting/change."

@ProfessorKukui4Life

Not only does the jutsu make it appear as the dimensions are being reality warped, the jutsu is also supported by several sources to change the surroundings of the dimension. Kakashi is a space-time expert who has been portrayed to understand the concepts of teleportation. And he experienced the effects of that jutsu four times, and still concluded Kaguya was changing worlds.

"A single dimension where she'd be changing the settings each time she wanted to "reality warp" them."

Except the dimensions are changed, not replaced. She transposes a dimension with another, essentially switching them.

From Naruto Databook: "Changes the world around the user and the people around her into another dimension. The dimensions it can move to are ones of lava, ice, gravity, sand, and acid..."

Ergo, she's moving said dimension with another one, not imbricating dimensions in a single space-time.

YungManzi · Jul 22, 2018

I think I get it...you're saying she teleports entire dimensions around and not actually people with Amenominaka.

Devoyant · Jul 22, 2018

@Golden Void

"Naruto literally tore her arm off with his chakra arm."

...which is why I said she tanked most of Naruto physical assaults. Also, she was distracted when Naruto did that.

"If nothing else contradicts it."

How about leaving the character to confirmed their strongest technique, instead of assuming for them?

"Chakra usage doesn't automatically equate to AP."

Chakra can be modified for AP, as shown during the last, when Naruto channeled his chakra unto his fist for AP. Kaguya alternatively used her chakra to create chakra arms, which can be categorized as an AP. Likewise, chakra can be used as a surrogate of a person's reserves, such as the example you brought.

"Additionally, we can't just say because Kaguya used more power for dimension hax than ETSB, that she has to be greater in all stats."

That's not the premise behind she needing to have a stats equivalence. The premise is the notion Kaguya absorbed more chakra during her recuperation, than the chakra she absorbed to form ETSB. It seems you've forgotten the reason why the subject of her using more chakra for Amenominaka is to prove ETSB wasn't necessarily her strongest technique. In Narutoverse, your strongest technique is likely going to require more chakra. Albeit am not saying Amenominaka is her strongest technique. (Someone said ETSB being her strongest technique makes her previous abilities lesser, and in extension means the version of her during her recuperation wasn't stronger than version of her when she formed ETSB. I had to prove ETSB doesn't require as much as Amenominaka, meaning she wasn't at her most strongest when she formed ETSB).

She changes the world around her, and the people around her. Analogically, it's like being in a room, and suddenly everything around you changes to another room. In essence, you have moved to another location, but somewhat in an inverted way.

Kaguya stats equivalence upgrade.

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