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Bayonetta: Abilities and in character mindset

Schnee_One

Schnee_One

VS Battles
Retired
63,487
8,486
WARNING: DO NOT ATTEMPT TRYING TO START CONFLICT OVER ANY DISAGREEMENT, POLITELY TRY TO CONTEST THE OTHERS REASONS IF YOU DISAGREE

Okay let's get this out of the way.

1. Her mind manipulation resistance

-It isn't mind manipulation, it is madness manipulation, as it is literal insanity being pumped into Jeanne's soul, if this even scales to base Bayonetta as this is down by Jeanne in the second game

2. Time Paradox immunity

-Was rejected due to the fact that meeting your past self doesn't quantify as time paradox immunity plus it was rejected on the old CRT

Now for the last part.

Her in character mindset has been said to involve her going into purgatorio.

From the examples however we see that she enters Purgatorio When she is fighting something there Why?

Becauseas shown by the mission where she escorts Ceresa in Bayo 1 She can't hit enemies without a physical object.

TLDR: Her mindset and some abilities should be removed or adjusted.
 
It is 100% in character for bayonetta to go into Purgatorio at the start of a fight regardless of who her opponent is, even if she doesn't know who her opponent is

I will link scans of her hitting things I'm the real world from purgatorio when I get home but she was able to destroy a mirror and create explosions in the real world, and even fodder angels were able to pick up and kidnap Enzo while they were in purgatorio
 
WeeklyBattles said:
It is 100% in character for bayonetta to go into Purgatorio at the start of a fight regardless of who her opponent is, even if she doesn't know who her opponent is
Click to expand...
... List of instances where this is the case?
 
Agree with the first two, also would like to make it clear that there's no justification as to why Jeanne's feat, regardless of when she did it, is scaling to Bayo. Idk about purgatorio stuff.
 
Purgatorio is odd seeing as Angels attack people in Purgatorio all the time and Bayo can directly affect objects from there. It's odd. But she cannot attack from Purgatorio....apparently...

The in character stuff is odd. This is because in character Bayo hasn't really fought many people outside of Purgatory, but this doesn't mean she won't use it to her advantage. It will not be her immediate go to ability, but it can be useful for gathering her thoughts and developing a strategy if she is fighting someone like say Link or Sora.

Now in character this is what I have developed for Bayo.

Starting Weapons: Bayo can literally start with any of her items in combat. She notably can swap at will. She could choose to go all Bazzillions if she wants. Or maybe she wants to just go lolRodin (Which is like never brought up despite how versatile the weapon is. Something that pisses me off. >.>) Bayonetta should be assumed to have her passive items equipped such as her P. Butterflies, etc.

Ideal Mindset: Bayo is hard to gauge as we don't know how she will react to different opponents. I feel like Bayo can tell when someone is a threat/around her level. So she would be less inclined to play around with those on her level. However, those who aren't kinda fodder-like to her, she'd take seriously. If she fights someone like say Roxas, after Loptr and Loki, I doubt she's going to take a little boy lightly anymore. Even when she's playing around, she is normally quite a "go for the kill" fighter. So overall I say it's pretty safe to say that she is still willing to go for the kill even when "casual". Honestly, Bayo doesn't really underestimate her opponents much unless they are absolutely fodder.

Regarding the OP, everything looks fine.
 
@Dragon If you were a women I would ask you out.

Starting with time slow makes sense as she does it very consistently, but Bayonetta isn't portrayed as a character who would want to hide away from and kill them while they can't see or hurt her.
 
So basically to detail the Purgatorio stuff.

1) Bayonetta will not immediately go into Purgatorio to snipe opponents.

2) Bayo can't actually hit people in Purgatorio, but she can be creative with it depending on location and can use it to get a strategy going or whatever.
 
She doesnt use Purgatorio specifically to snipe people in the real world from it but she goes there instinctively at the start of fights and has the ability to snipe people from it if she wants
 
Can I see proof that she can affect people while in purgatorio? Cause the entire segment with Cereza contradicts that point.
 
 
Ok, and how much has she shown to go to purgatorio to attack enemies not in the same dimension as her?
 
Doesn't madness manip fall under mind manip? And isn't mind manip resistance usually clumped together? That is: You resist one form, you resist them all?
 
It depends. Considering that this is just from someone literally pumping insanity into someone else, it's not really mind manipulation.
 
@Light

"And isn't mind mail resistance usually clumped together?"

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. There should probably be a revision thread talking about that.

Nobody seems to know where to draw the line.
 
Ive seen threads where people argue resistance to mind control based on resistance to madness manipulation.

But then say mind control resistance won't help against memory manipulation or mind based illusions.
 
I'm fairly sure that mind manipulation resistance, unless otherwise shown, gives you a blanket resistance to the subcategories, but resisting one of the subcategories, like madness manip, generally doesn't let you resist all mindhax types. Also, why should Bayo have Joanne's resist exactly?
 
Unless Jeanne resisted due to her nature as a witch, I don't think resistances scale like that. Not all space Marines scale to sigsmund after all.
 
All umbra witches need to undergo intense mental training in order to properly use their powers

Bayo also resisted Alraune using the same ability she used against jeanne on her during their fight
 
"I'm fairly sure that mind manipulation resistance, unless otherwise shown, gives you a blanket resistance to the subcategories,"

The problem with that is this: what most people think of as "Mind Manipulation" is really "Mind Control" and it itself is a subcategory of Mind Manipulation.
 
Ok, then that's a better reason for her to have that resist. You should probably change it to clarify that Bayonetta herself also resisted the ability, because it looks weird with the current justification. I can't really think of anyone who only resists mind control and has it listed as mind manipulation.
 
Do you have an example of characters who have mind control inappropriately listed, because all the people I can think of rn listed with mind manipulation can do more than just control.
 
Hitoshi Shinso's Mind Manipulation is only mind control.

From What I know (I don't know much about PM verse), Witch's Kiss from Puella Magi Verse is listed under mind manipulation(There's also the fact that every description I've ever seen of it sounds like madness manipulation rather than mind control).

Reisen Udongein Inaba (Who is even listed on the mind manipulation page) is another person whose abilities sound a lot like madness manipulation which leads to empathic manipulation.

Even Cole from InFamous. His initial Mind Manipulation feat is just resistance to mind control.

What's your point in saying all this?

I just feel like we can't make exceptions for some forms of mind manipulation,then don't make exceptions for others.

We've had threads where resistance to mind control /= resistance to memory manipulation, but we've also had threads where resistance to madness manipulation = resistance to mind control.
 
Witches kiss can do more than just control iirc, Sasha's tar can do more than just mind control, and I'm not knowledgeable at all on the anime dude or Touhou person. Madness manip is also generally quite different from something like memory manip or mind control, which more neatly fit into the category.
 
Also, keep in mind that a lot of this is case by case, due to the verse specific intricacies of how mindhax works there. Some verses separate all the types, others blanket them.
 
@Gar

True, I was wrong about that point..but it isn't really the point of my argument.

Edit:

@Woki

I was actually aguing against PM Verse having mind control at all. The descriptions all sound like madness manipulation.
 
Your point is that mind control is just listed as Mind manipulation

All of your examples backfired.

So what is your point?
 
No, mind control is definitely a thing they can do with the witch's kiss. You can ask Kal for more details about that if you want, I've gotta go do something. Homura also has memory manip with hers, which is where the whole "lol 2-A mindhax" thing is from.
 
@Gar

"Your point is that mind control is just listed as Mind manipulation

All of your examples backfired."

I only listed two examples and talked about mind control. On one I was wrong(Because I've only ever played InFamous Second Son), the other I wasn't wrong.

Overall, I don't have too much of a problem with mind manipulation being listed on the profiles instead of "Mind Manipulation via Madness Manipulation" or "Mind Control", I just think that things like Memory Manipulation should be treated the same way as every other kind of mind manipulation(Unless, like Woki said there is some kind of special mechanic)

Edit:

We're kind of crowding this Bayonetta thread with this, so I won't be responding on this thread anymore. If you want to continue...hit my wall
 
Witches have legit mind control. There is the witch from Tart Magica that mind haxed a bunch of soldiers forcing them to exterminate Tart's village, even Elly pretty obviously controlled her victims.

Also if they simply forced people to go insane, they would kill themselves on the spot instead of doing so near the witch's labyrinth (which is done to be sure that they can be eaten afterwards)
 
Except you were.

You said Witch Kiss was madness Manipulation when it also consisted of memory manipulation and making people insane.

And even assuming you were why even bring up something related to Mind manipulation when as I said this doesn't even scale to Bayo and is thus irrelevant anyway?

Enough of the derailing, discuss somewhere else.
 
Actually, from what Weekly said it actually does scale to her, since its more or less required to be able to do that to be an umbra witch in the first place and Alruanne used the same thing on Bayo during the fight to no avail. It still doesn't save her from Doom's mindhax, and Doom has overpowered mental resists before regardless.
 
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