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Been organizing this for a while. This is going to affect all profiles, and is pretty large, so I'm going to have it done in stages. This is stage 1, and focuses only on overarching changes to everyone.
Stage 2 (looking at individual character changes) can come later.
Base Ghoul AP
Grown ghouls in the Tokyo Ghoul universe are all between 4 - 7 times stronger than a Human. Even investigators, who train their bodies extensively to come close, cannot match them in terms of physical strength.
We also have a knowledgeable ghoul investigator telling some people that even a child ghoul would have no problem ripping an adult human apart.
We also have this unimportant ghoul punching through a concrete wall and violently fragmenting a small part of it. From a very basic calc I performed with a lot of underestimating to be safe (assumed the radius of the fragmented bit to be 25cm, depth to be 1cm based on the fragment sizes, used the 17j/cc rather than 20j/cc) and that I would like to be redone by someone more qualified, this is about 15,000 joules at minimum -> low end wall level.
Based on this, all ghouls should be wall level at minimum.
Kagune AP
However, wall level is just the base power of a ghoul. Their Kagune is much stronger.
Here's some details on the Kagune.
Saiko is noted as a genius at manipulating the shape of her Kagune. However, as Eto notes above, a Kagune's size (and thus power) is determined by the ghoul's RC Factor, while its shape is determined by the intelligence and creativity of the user. So in terms of size and power, Saiko's Kagune is not actually that great. She actually has less RC Factor than the weakest ghoul, and thus any ghoul's Kagune is, in terms of size and sheer power at least, superior to hers.
Saiko also breaks a building by punching it with her Kagune and a few panels later violently fragments the ground.
That's Small Building Level right there.
From this, we can judge that all ghouls are 9-A with their Kagunes, as they all have superior RC counts to Saiko.
So are they glass canons then?
Well no.
All ghouls can take the recoil of swinging around their Kagunes, and can take hits from Kagune (to a degree, Kagunes are still stronger generally), so from that you could assume their durability is 9-A. That would screw up a bit of scaling, given that ghouls have plenty of feats of harming each other with their bare hands.
However, I actually found a reason for this. This helpful explanatio frombest boy Shuu Tsukiyama. When a ghoul uses their Kagune, all their stats are increased. It isn't just "now they have a tail/wings/tentacles/etc". Their strength, speed, durability, agility, and Regenerationn are all improved from when their Kagune was "sheathed".
Considering they are now buffed to the point that they can take the force of swinging around 9-A Kagune, and can now harm other people's Kagunes (Kaneki for example shows the strength to tear apart Jason's incomplete Kakuja with his bare hands when his Kagune is out, when he hadn't been able to damage it with a punch when his Kagune was "sheated"). [image needed]
From this, all ghouls should be rated as:
"9-B, 9-A with Kagune"
A note on Kakujas
Anyone with a Kakuja is stronger and more durable than a normal ghoul. Considering the Kakuja is basically a Kagune as a stat-amping armour, this makes sense.
However, the boost is not clear. It's there, but its extent is unclear. Individually though:
Arata Kirishimi - boost unclear. All we know it that his Kakuja was later made into a special type of Quinque - the Arata armour, which grants investigators the strength, speed and durability of a ghoul in exchange for feeding on them. The armour did let Shinohara and Kuroiwa take hits from with Yoshimura in his SSS rate One Eyed / Non-Killing Owl form, so the durability is at least enough that it lets a peak human take 9-A attacks. However, applying that boost to another ghoul seems a little questionable.
Yamoori - increase in physical strength, but again it's unclear. It also improved his Regenerationn speed though, which should scale to all Kakuja based on what Shuu says about how using the Kagune buffs the ghoul via RC cell surge (and mutated RC cells are what creates the Kakuja). It should be noted that this was an incomplete Kakuja, not a full evolution.
Yoshimura - we never see him fight without his Kakuja, so we can't determine the boost, to any of his abilities.
Kaneki - he has a few kakuja forms, but I'll just focus on the one seen in the original series. It seems to improve his speed, give him more tentacles, and increased his AP, as it let him one-shot Shinohara while Shinohara was wearing Arata, something that even Yoshimura with his Kaukuja couldn't do. So for Kaneki at least, we have a substantial boost. Like Yamoori's Kakuja, Kaneki's Kakuja was incomplete here, which is really even more impressive.
Eto - she's also got a few different Kaukuja forms, but here I'll focus on the original series. Like Kaneki, she was able to one-shot Shinohara even through his (improved) Arata, though it should be noted that Shinohara had just been fighting Yoshimura again and was weakened from the encounter.
All Kakuja's are stronger and more durable, and likely heal faster too based on Shuu's explanation of the boost they get. However, I don't believe the boost is enough to make them 50 times stronger, which is what they would need in order to reach 8-C. Or even 25 times stronger to reach Small Building level+. Therefore, I believe the best course of action for all Kakujas is to simply continue to list them at 9-A for the time being.
Investigators
Now we come to a problem. It is made very clear that Investigators cannot match a ghoul in physical power. Mado says so. We see investigators getting one shot by Kagune time and time again. However, Quinques do let investigators fight ghouls. Despite ghouls being 9-B to 9-A, and most investigators being around 10-A to 9-C, we have quinques letting investigators easily cut apart ghouls. The way I see it, there are two possibilities here:
1) rate Investigators as "9-A with Quinques".
2) list Quinques (and therefore Kagunes) as being able to ignore durability to a degree of 9-A.
I do not like either method. While some quinques I can see as putting out 9-A levels of force (e.g. Higher Mind / Angel Beats, Narukami's lightning bolts) and will be rated as such, the majority of Quinques are used like swords to physically hit the ghoul, and if the investigator couldn't hit the ghoul with 9-A force with a normal sword, then why would using a quinque sword amplify that force?
However, saying they ignore durability also seems wrong, as Quinques have been physically stopped several times before (Shinohara and Kuriowa were unable to do lethal damage to Yoshimura despite their quinques).
The simplest explanation here is that "Quinques are really sharp". The sharper a blade is, the less energy you need to cut through something with it, that's the point of making something sharper. However, we also have things like Amon being able to cut Ghouls in two by hitting them with his pugil stick thing. And that thing does not look sharp. That being said, Amon has also been able to block Touka's kick with his bare hands (albeit with difficulty) as well as block hits from Kaneki's Kagune with his Quinque, and that would also require outputting 9-A force, so maybe he's just one of the few people who can physically match a ghoul.
So when it comes to what to rate Investigators as, I am open to suggestions on what to, because right now "can damage up to 9-A with quinques" is my best idea.
Regenerationn Negation
This one is a bit more controversial.
According to the Tokyo Ghoul wiki, "Although a ghoul's healing ability is high, the healing of wounds tends to be delayed if the wounds are inflicted by a kagune".
Despite all ghouls' impressive Low-Mid healing factor, wounds caused by Kagune (and Quinques, which are made from Kagune) are seemingly not healed as as fast or as easily. I also found a potential mechanic for the Regenerationn negation.
The reason this is controversial is because there are other possible reasons for the slower Regenerationn, but I'll leave people to judge for themselves.
1. Touka breaks Kaneki's finger by stepping on it, and tells him it will heal by tomorrow. She then brings out her Kagune, and tells him "this won't heal so fast".
2. Kaneki impales Nishiki through the stomach multiple times with his kagune. It is later shown that this wound is not healing and even after he eats a bit of Kimi it still isn't healing.
3. Touka is cut on the arm by Mado's Quinque. Despite the wound being nothing by ghoul standards (it is just a deep scratch), it still hasn't healed by the next day.
4. When Kaneki is impaled by the Kagune from Juuzou's quinque, it is noted that Kaneki is no longer regenerating so fast.
5. When Kaneki has a large portion of his lower torso destroyed by Amon, he questions why it isn't healing. He then turns around and sees that Amon's quinque has been combined with the Bin Brother's Kagune (which is a Bikaku, something important to note based on the next image)
The likely reason for this Regenerationn negation is given by Shinohara, who states that Kagune secretions are poisonous, more so against the RC type they "match up" against. (Bikaku "matches up" agaisnt Rinkaku, which is Kaneki's Kagune type). Thus when a wound is poisoned by the Ghoul's Kagune, or an investigator's Quinque, it can't heal as effectively.
So from this, all ghouls and ghoul investigators should have "limited Regenerationn Negation via their Kagune/Quinques (poisonous secretions from Kagune and Quinques can interfere with the Regenerationn of others)" added to their profiles.
Who this affects
Pretty much everyone on this pageincluding the supporters ovo.
All ghouls listed as 9-B or lower need to have that key changed to "9-B, 9-A with Kagune". All Investigators need to have their keys changed to "can damage up to 9-A beings with quinques" or whatever the consensus on that is. And everyone needs limited Regenerationn negation.
Finishing notes
I want to make it clear here: This is not the end of the changes. This is just the foundation for the rest of the changes, to make sure that all the basic framework is in place. Once these basic verse wide changes have been made, I'll get to work on the individual character changes.
Stage 2 (looking at individual character changes) can come later.
Base Ghoul AP
Grown ghouls in the Tokyo Ghoul universe are all between 4 - 7 times stronger than a Human. Even investigators, who train their bodies extensively to come close, cannot match them in terms of physical strength.
We also have a knowledgeable ghoul investigator telling some people that even a child ghoul would have no problem ripping an adult human apart.
We also have this unimportant ghoul punching through a concrete wall and violently fragmenting a small part of it. From a very basic calc I performed with a lot of underestimating to be safe (assumed the radius of the fragmented bit to be 25cm, depth to be 1cm based on the fragment sizes, used the 17j/cc rather than 20j/cc) and that I would like to be redone by someone more qualified, this is about 15,000 joules at minimum -> low end wall level.
Based on this, all ghouls should be wall level at minimum.
Kagune AP
However, wall level is just the base power of a ghoul. Their Kagune is much stronger.
Here's some details on the Kagune.
- The size of a Kagune (and thus its physical power) is determined by the quality and quantity of RC cells. Eto tells us this.
- RC factor is determined by the number of RC cells in the body (we can infer this from what Touka, Shinohara and Amo tell us), as well as the quality of those RC cells. Kanou tells us this - higher quality Kagune (and thus RC cells, as it is made of it) result in higher RC factors.
- A Ghouls's RC Factor is about 10 times that of a human, ranging from 1000 - 8000. Again, Touka and Amon tell us from that in the last few images.
Saiko is noted as a genius at manipulating the shape of her Kagune. However, as Eto notes above, a Kagune's size (and thus power) is determined by the ghoul's RC Factor, while its shape is determined by the intelligence and creativity of the user. So in terms of size and power, Saiko's Kagune is not actually that great. She actually has less RC Factor than the weakest ghoul, and thus any ghoul's Kagune is, in terms of size and sheer power at least, superior to hers.
Saiko also breaks a building by punching it with her Kagune and a few panels later violently fragments the ground.
That's Small Building Level right there.
From this, we can judge that all ghouls are 9-A with their Kagunes, as they all have superior RC counts to Saiko.
So are they glass canons then?
Well no.
All ghouls can take the recoil of swinging around their Kagunes, and can take hits from Kagune (to a degree, Kagunes are still stronger generally), so from that you could assume their durability is 9-A. That would screw up a bit of scaling, given that ghouls have plenty of feats of harming each other with their bare hands.
However, I actually found a reason for this. This helpful explanatio from
Considering they are now buffed to the point that they can take the force of swinging around 9-A Kagune, and can now harm other people's Kagunes (Kaneki for example shows the strength to tear apart Jason's incomplete Kakuja with his bare hands when his Kagune is out, when he hadn't been able to damage it with a punch when his Kagune was "sheated"). [image needed]
From this, all ghouls should be rated as:
"9-B, 9-A with Kagune"
A note on Kakujas
Anyone with a Kakuja is stronger and more durable than a normal ghoul. Considering the Kakuja is basically a Kagune as a stat-amping armour, this makes sense.
However, the boost is not clear. It's there, but its extent is unclear. Individually though:
Arata Kirishimi - boost unclear. All we know it that his Kakuja was later made into a special type of Quinque - the Arata armour, which grants investigators the strength, speed and durability of a ghoul in exchange for feeding on them. The armour did let Shinohara and Kuroiwa take hits from with Yoshimura in his SSS rate One Eyed / Non-Killing Owl form, so the durability is at least enough that it lets a peak human take 9-A attacks. However, applying that boost to another ghoul seems a little questionable.
Yamoori - increase in physical strength, but again it's unclear. It also improved his Regenerationn speed though, which should scale to all Kakuja based on what Shuu says about how using the Kagune buffs the ghoul via RC cell surge (and mutated RC cells are what creates the Kakuja). It should be noted that this was an incomplete Kakuja, not a full evolution.
Yoshimura - we never see him fight without his Kakuja, so we can't determine the boost, to any of his abilities.
Kaneki - he has a few kakuja forms, but I'll just focus on the one seen in the original series. It seems to improve his speed, give him more tentacles, and increased his AP, as it let him one-shot Shinohara while Shinohara was wearing Arata, something that even Yoshimura with his Kaukuja couldn't do. So for Kaneki at least, we have a substantial boost. Like Yamoori's Kakuja, Kaneki's Kakuja was incomplete here, which is really even more impressive.
Eto - she's also got a few different Kaukuja forms, but here I'll focus on the original series. Like Kaneki, she was able to one-shot Shinohara even through his (improved) Arata, though it should be noted that Shinohara had just been fighting Yoshimura again and was weakened from the encounter.
All Kakuja's are stronger and more durable, and likely heal faster too based on Shuu's explanation of the boost they get. However, I don't believe the boost is enough to make them 50 times stronger, which is what they would need in order to reach 8-C. Or even 25 times stronger to reach Small Building level+. Therefore, I believe the best course of action for all Kakujas is to simply continue to list them at 9-A for the time being.
Investigators
Now we come to a problem. It is made very clear that Investigators cannot match a ghoul in physical power. Mado says so. We see investigators getting one shot by Kagune time and time again. However, Quinques do let investigators fight ghouls. Despite ghouls being 9-B to 9-A, and most investigators being around 10-A to 9-C, we have quinques letting investigators easily cut apart ghouls. The way I see it, there are two possibilities here:
1) rate Investigators as "9-A with Quinques".
2) list Quinques (and therefore Kagunes) as being able to ignore durability to a degree of 9-A.
I do not like either method. While some quinques I can see as putting out 9-A levels of force (e.g. Higher Mind / Angel Beats, Narukami's lightning bolts) and will be rated as such, the majority of Quinques are used like swords to physically hit the ghoul, and if the investigator couldn't hit the ghoul with 9-A force with a normal sword, then why would using a quinque sword amplify that force?
However, saying they ignore durability also seems wrong, as Quinques have been physically stopped several times before (Shinohara and Kuriowa were unable to do lethal damage to Yoshimura despite their quinques).
The simplest explanation here is that "Quinques are really sharp". The sharper a blade is, the less energy you need to cut through something with it, that's the point of making something sharper. However, we also have things like Amon being able to cut Ghouls in two by hitting them with his pugil stick thing. And that thing does not look sharp. That being said, Amon has also been able to block Touka's kick with his bare hands (albeit with difficulty) as well as block hits from Kaneki's Kagune with his Quinque, and that would also require outputting 9-A force, so maybe he's just one of the few people who can physically match a ghoul.
So when it comes to what to rate Investigators as, I am open to suggestions on what to, because right now "can damage up to 9-A with quinques" is my best idea.
Regenerationn Negation
This one is a bit more controversial.
According to the Tokyo Ghoul wiki, "Although a ghoul's healing ability is high, the healing of wounds tends to be delayed if the wounds are inflicted by a kagune".
Despite all ghouls' impressive Low-Mid healing factor, wounds caused by Kagune (and Quinques, which are made from Kagune) are seemingly not healed as as fast or as easily. I also found a potential mechanic for the Regenerationn negation.
The reason this is controversial is because there are other possible reasons for the slower Regenerationn, but I'll leave people to judge for themselves.
1. Touka breaks Kaneki's finger by stepping on it, and tells him it will heal by tomorrow. She then brings out her Kagune, and tells him "this won't heal so fast".
2. Kaneki impales Nishiki through the stomach multiple times with his kagune. It is later shown that this wound is not healing and even after he eats a bit of Kimi it still isn't healing.
3. Touka is cut on the arm by Mado's Quinque. Despite the wound being nothing by ghoul standards (it is just a deep scratch), it still hasn't healed by the next day.
4. When Kaneki is impaled by the Kagune from Juuzou's quinque, it is noted that Kaneki is no longer regenerating so fast.
5. When Kaneki has a large portion of his lower torso destroyed by Amon, he questions why it isn't healing. He then turns around and sees that Amon's quinque has been combined with the Bin Brother's Kagune (which is a Bikaku, something important to note based on the next image)
The likely reason for this Regenerationn negation is given by Shinohara, who states that Kagune secretions are poisonous, more so against the RC type they "match up" against. (Bikaku "matches up" agaisnt Rinkaku, which is Kaneki's Kagune type). Thus when a wound is poisoned by the Ghoul's Kagune, or an investigator's Quinque, it can't heal as effectively.
So from this, all ghouls and ghoul investigators should have "limited Regenerationn Negation via their Kagune/Quinques (poisonous secretions from Kagune and Quinques can interfere with the Regenerationn of others)" added to their profiles.
Who this affects
Pretty much everyone on this page
All ghouls listed as 9-B or lower need to have that key changed to "9-B, 9-A with Kagune". All Investigators need to have their keys changed to "can damage up to 9-A beings with quinques" or whatever the consensus on that is. And everyone needs limited Regenerationn negation.
Finishing notes
I want to make it clear here: This is not the end of the changes. This is just the foundation for the rest of the changes, to make sure that all the basic framework is in place. Once these basic verse wide changes have been made, I'll get to work on the individual character changes.
