Star Wars Revision: Darth Plagueis upgrade

Introductio

Here we have another Star Wars revision. I assume you know what I'm about to discuss by reading the title. I know Plagueis has been upgraded and downgraded before, but after seeing Sidious and Vititate being upgraded to 4-B level, I think we must reassess Plagueis.

Darth Plagueis 'The Wise' is currently ranked as Multi-Continent Level (High 6-A). However, I believe he should be upgraded to Solar System Level (4-B) just like Sidious and Vitiate. Let me tell you why.


Feats

First, there's Plagueis' death at the hands of Sidious at the end of The Phantom Menace/Darth Plagueis novel. The way Sidious chose to kill Plagueis is as follows:

-He got him so drunk he was staggering around and crashed out on a chair, deeply unconscious

-He attacked him with a barrage of lightning so potent that Sidious had "never drawn on the Dark Side so deeply"

"The question lingered for only a moment, then Sidious unleashed another tangle of lightning, drawing more deeply on the dark side than he ever had." From (Darth Plagueis novel by James Luceno)


-He choked Plagueis by restricting his airways, causing him to suffocate.
-His respirator was also malfunctioning, and this strangling is what killed him.


Plagueis was caught in the worst situation ever. But Plagueis' response:


-Instead of attacking Sidious or putting up a defence, which he could have, he took the full brunt of the lightning on his body

-He couldn't do much about his destroyed respirator

-But what he did do was, arrogantly, attempt to counter-act Sidious killing him by actively replacing and healing his Midichlorians while being attacked by the lightning

"Crackling from his fingertips, a web of blue lightning ground itself on the Muun's breathing device. Plagueis's eyes snapped open, the Force gathering in him like a storm, but he stopped short of defending himself. This being who had survived assassinations and killed countless opponents merely gazed at Sidious, until it struck him that Plagueis was challenging him! Confident that he couldn't be killed, and in denial that he was slowly suffocating, he might have been simply experimenting with himself, actually courting death to put it in its place." From (Darth Plagueis novel by James Luceno)

Sidious saw that Plagueis was replacing his Midichlorians despite being blasted by the most powerful lightning in the mythos unguarded, completely intoxicated and suffocating. And that's the beauty of this whole feat! It wasn't Sidious' full power lightning barrage that killed Plagueis, he was strangled to death. The fact Plagueis was able to even use Midichlorian Manipulation in this scenario, let alone see visible results from doing so, to the point Sidious opted to choke him to death instead of exerting himself with his lightning, is utterly mindblowing. By tanking the strongest force lightning without any sort of Force barrier, this shows insane Regenerationn abilities as well.

After tanking a second barrage of Sidious' full powered lightning, Palpatine resorted to choking Plagueis. "Oh, yes, by all means gather your midi-chlorians, Plagueis." He held his thumb and forefinger close together. "Try to keep yourself alive while I choke the life out of you." From (Darth Plagueis novel by James Luceno)

Next, Plagueis caused the most severe winter Naboo had ever experienced in its history. The global temperature plummeted drastically, all the rivers, lakes and waterways were frozen solid, and violently shook all the mountains ranges:

"Later it would be said by Naboo and Gungan alike that they couldn't recall a colder winter than the one that followed Hego Damask's autumnal visit to their world. The rivers and even the falls below Theed froze; the rolling plains and tall forests were blanketed three meters deep with snow; plasmic quakes rocked the Gallo Mountains and the Lake Country, the Holy Places and the undersea city of Otoh Gunga; and many of the egresses of the underwaterways that hollowed the planet were blocked by ice floes."

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

The only thing in the mythos comparable to this feat is when Sidious turned Byss into a powerful dark side nexus. Vitiate never caused such a physcial change to a planet with his mere presence. No Sith before Plagueis ever had. Plagueis' death had also created a monumental tremor in the Force that literally affected the entire galaxy (I'm not going to post the quote since its so long, I'm sure many of you have seen the quote before) and was the most potent death tremor to date. Vitiate's death never caused such an effect, nor did his Valkorion form. This is how steeped Plagueis was in the dark side.

Also, it's unprecedented to unbalance the Force and delve into Midichlorian manipulation the way Plagueis did: it's like Valkorion's wet dream come true - Dark Side sovereignty over the galaxy and biological immortality - but Plagueis pulled it off without spending "thousands of years plundering the deepest depths of the Dark Side".


Statements

Here are several statements that further analyze Darth Plagueis' power.

Darth Plagueis was adept in some of the most arcane and unnatural applications of the Force:

"Plagueis, the wise, was an adept of some of the most arcane and unnatural applications of the Force." ('StarWars.com Databank: Darth Sidious)

Darth Plagueis attained unprecedented mastery over life and death, a realm of ability described as the 'ultimate power':

"Darth Plagueis: Like all Sith Lords before him, he craves absolute power. But like no Sith Lord ever, he possesses the ultimate power—over life and death." ('Darth Plagueis, Novel Synopsis)

"For like no other disciple of the dark side, Darth Plagueis learns to command the ultimate power … over life and death." ('Darth Plagueis, Novel Synopsis)

"His inward turn had enabled him to master the equally powerful energies of order and disorder, creation and entropy, life and death." ('Darth Plagueis)

Palpatine perceived Plagueis through the Force as terrifying nexus of energy able to contain the full power of the dark side:

"Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side." ('Darth Plagueis)

Plagueis came to understand that there were no powers he could not achieve through sheer effort of will, and that if a Sith of equal power had preceded him, their secrets had been lost to history:

"But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface." (Darth Plagueis)

This above quote is very important for understanding Plagueis' true power. Plagueis is very well aware of Vitiate's past existence and so does Sidious. Several ancient Sith holocrons were kept by Darth Plagueis and were presumably inherited by Darth Sidious. Plagueis said that there's no Sith that have ever equaled his power to his knowledge. He's certainly aware of Vitiate's exploits, as well as other well known exploits like Nihilus', Revan and Malak's, etc. as the novel indicates. This suggests that Plagueis is confident that he has eclipsed or has the means to eclipse all known feats of power previously in the mythos, which would include Nihilus' Drain, Vitiate's Ziost instance, etc. He knows he's more powerful than anyone who came before him, which includes Vitiate. Don't forget that Plagueis was so powerful that he could learn any power through sheer force of will, even if he wasn't naturally gifted with the ability to use it. Who else can claim that?

Plagueis' willpower was sufficient to uncover just about all Dark Side abilities we're familiar with. Midichlorian Manipulation is the most unprecedented one of them all to master, because the Force actively resists having it's Midichlorians - it's "proxy army" to quote - being manipulated by mere mortals. That's why Plagueis was the only one able to use it; he unbalanced the Force on a galactic scale, again, by directing his willpower towards it in meditation, and thus subverted the Force's resistance to manipulating Midichlorians. Plagueis was also stated to have the ability to increase his own Midichlorian count as well.

Plagueis has an accolade of being the most powerful Sith Lord to have ever lived up to his time.

"Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived." (Darth Plagueis, Novel Synopsis)

Through midi-chlorian manipulation Plagueis was able to tap into the deepest strata of the Force in ways that his ancient Sith predecessors had not:

"In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the language of the midi-chlorians." ('Darth Plagueis)

According to James Luceno, had it come a battle between Plagueis and Sidious, the former would more have emerged victorious:

Q: Do you feel that, had it come to a contest of lightsabers or Force powers, Sidious would have prevailed anyway?

A: If it had come to a duel, I think Plagueis may have found a way to undermine his apprentice.

James Luceno, Facebook Q&A

Despite being over a decade into his training, Plagueis' remained powerful beyond Palpatine's comprehension:

"Palpatine hadn't been attempting to flatter Plagueis when he had called him wise-not entirely, at any rate. The Muun was powerful beyond Palpatine's present understanding." ('Darth Plagueis)

At the end of his training, despite his powers increasing tenfold since, Palpatine remained uncertain whether he was as powerful and masterful in the Force as Plagueis:

"Sidious knew that his own powers had increased tenfold over the decades, but he couldn't be certain he had learned all of Plagueis's secrets—"his sorcerer's ways," as the Sun Guards referred to them—including the ability to prevent beings from dying. He sometimes wondered: Was he a level behind? Two levels behind? Such questions were precisely what had driven generations of Sith apprentices ultimately to challenge their Masters. The uncertainty about who was the more powerful." ('Darth Plagueis)

Some two decades before Plagueis' prime, Sidious believed that alongside himself his Master was more than equal to the Jedi's most powerful members:

"While he accepted that he and Plagueis were more than equal to the most powerful of the Jedi Order, he understood that they were no match for their combined strength—the Sith imperative notwithstanding." ('Darth Plagueis)

This above quote suggests that a pre-prime Plagueis was already more than a match for the most powerful Jedi of their time, which includes Yoda and Mace Windu.

While traveling to Aborah, Sidious has a vision of Aborah and perceives it inordinately saturated in the dark side, a result of Plagueis' use of the Force while there:

"A standard month after the events on Coruscant, Plagueis summoned Sidious to Muunilinst. Sidious had visited the High Port skyhook but had never been invited downside, and now he found himself soaring over one of the planet's unspoiled blue oceans in a stylish airspeeder piloted by two Sun Guards. As the speeder approached Aborah, he settled deeply into the Force and was rewarded with a vision of the mountain island as a transcendent vortex of dark energy unlike anything he had ever experienced. It was something he would have expected to encounter only on Korriban or some other Sith world."


Conclusion

Darth Plagueis needs to be upgraded to Solar System Level (4-B) or at least Large Star Level if you don't agree with me. When Sidious killed Plagueis, why did he do so when the Muun was asleep? TPM Sidious knew he was no match for him and feared him:

"Was it possible that the wily Muun had deceived him? Had Plagueis unlocked the key to immortality, and survived after all? Never mind that it would constitute a petty move for one so wise—for one who had professed to place the Grand Plan above all else. Had Plagueis become ensnared in a self-spun web of jealousy and possessiveness, victim of his own engineering, his own foibles? If he hadn't been concerned for his own safety, Sidious might have pitied him. Wary of approaching the corpse of his former Master, he called on the Force to roll the aged Muun over onto his back. From that angle Plagueis looked almost as he had when Sidious first met him, decades earlier: smooth, hairless cranium; humped nose, with its bridge flattened as if from a shock-ball blow and its sharp tip pressed almost to his upper lip; jutting lower jaw; sunken eyes still brimming with menace—a physical characteristic rarely encountered in a Muun. But then Plagueis had never been an ordinary Muun, nor an ordinary being of any sort. Sidious took care, still reaching out with the Force. On closer inspection, he saw that Plagueis's already cyanotic flesh was smoothing out, his features relaxing. Faintly aware of the whir of air scrubbers and sounds of the outside world infiltrating the luxurious suite, he continued the vigil; then, in relief, he pulled himself up to his full height and let out his breath. This was no Sith trick." (Darth Plagueis)

Wow.


Don't mess with Plagueis.

Sidious became 4-B after killing Plagueis.

Plagueis bringing that winter to Naboo is a High 6-A feat.

Much of the Sith history had been lost when Darth Gravid destroyed it 500 years before TPM. Nothing at all directly points towards him being stronger than Vitiate. Even then, Vitiate's secrets were lost to history, as no one even knew of his ritual.

The rest is just pointless fluff.

Agree with Ever.

As much as I'd love another Star Wars 4B

Afraid not FRA

Darth plagueis muses about ancient sith, and vitiate himself:


"As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to perpetuate their spirits after physical death—foremost among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a thousand years—the ancient Sith had come halfway across that bridge."

'Darth Plagueis, p. 181

Plagueis certainly knew Vitiate. How do you think Palpatine learned about Vitiate?

As i quoted from the plagueis novel from my last response, Plagueis also kept several ancient sith holocrons from the old republic and new sith wars eras, further proving his knowledge of Vitiate and his feats

"But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface."

From the quote you posted. No one knew how to perform Vitiate's ritual, they didn't even know he did a ritual.

wait Darth Vader getting an upgrade?

Nopeee, nvm read that wrong...heart break ATM

The Everlasting said:

"But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface."

From the quote you posted. No one knew how to perform Vitiate's ritual, they didn't even know he did a ritual.

Click to expand...

Plagueis certainly knew that Vitiate did a ritual and what the ritual granted him. Plagueis' obssession with immortality was largely sparked from Vitiate's own quest for immortality that he came to learn much about. Plagueis didn't replicate Vitiate's ritual because he hated the thought of essence transfer and wanted physical, not spiritual, immortality.

"Thousands of years after the Emperor's death, the Sith Lord Darth Plagueis—himself obsessed with achieving immortality—mused that Lord Vitiate, as he was known to history, was the only Sith Lord in history who had come close to achieving the secret." (Vitiate-Wookieepedia/starwars.wikia.com)

Plagueis: "As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to perpetuate their spirits after physical death—foremost among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a thousand years—the ancient Sith had come halfway across that bridge. But those few had been so focused on worldly power that they had ended up trapping themselves between realms." (Darth Plagueis)

Plagueis: "In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the language of the midi-chlorians." (Darth Plagueis)

"[...] which involved the relocation of an individual's consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

But none of this amounted to corporeal survival.

Plagueis had no interest in being a lingering, disembodied presence, trapped between worlds and powerless to affect the material realm except through the actions of weak-minded beings he could goad, coax, or will into action. Nor did he seek to shunt his mind into the body of another, whether an apprentice, as Bane was thought to have attempted, or some vat-grown clone. Nothing less than the immortality of his body and mind would suffice." (Darth Plagueis)

"Vitiate was seen as being perhaps one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history in terms of his sheer strength, might, and influence. It is even noted that Plagueis mentioned and talked a lot about Vitiate, and one would assume that a lot was revealed to his apprentice Darth Sidious.' 'In fact Sidious would have grown hearing a lot about the mighty and pragmatic Sith Emperor Vitiate." (Star Wars Comics commentary)


And if none of this is enough, Plagueis had a very profound understanding and huge collection of ancient lore and knowledge:

"Plagueis was guardian of the one of the finest libraries to be found anywhere outside Obroa-skai or the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. Here, neatly arranged and cataloged and stored in climate-controlled cases, was a collection of treatises and commentaries accumulated over centuries by the Sith and their often unwitting agents. Ancient histories of the Rakata and the Vjun; texts devoted to the Followers of Palawa, the Chatos Academy, and the Order of Dai Bendu; archives that had once belonged to House Malreaux; annals of the Sorcerers of Tund and of Queen Amanoa of Onderon; biological studies of the ysalimiri and vornskrs of Myrkr, and of the taozin of Va'art. Certain long-lived species, like the Wookiees, Hutts, Falleen, and Toydarians, were afforded galleries of their own." (Darth Plagueis)

Plagueis: "The ancients—the Celestials, the Rakata—didn't pronounce judgment on their works. They moved planets, organized star systems, conjured dark side devices like the Star Forge as they saw fit. If millions died in the process, so be it." (Darth Plagueis)

"Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters." (Darth Plagueis)

"Several ancient Sith holocrons were kept by Darth Plagueis and were presumably inherited by Darth Sidious." (Sith holocron-Wookieepedia/starwars.wikia.com)

"On seeing the Zabrak's lightsaber produce two blades, Plagueis drew in his breath. "A saber-staff! The weapon of Exar Kun! Did he construct that?"" (Darth Plagueis)

"Your thoughts betray you," Plagueis said. "Do you think that Malak's powers were weakened by Revan's lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you think Gravid's young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him?" (Darth Plagueis)

Plagueis: "If it's history that has caught your fancy, I can show you a hundred worlds on which esoteric Sith symbols have been woven covertly into architecture and culture, and I can bore you for years with tales of the exploits of Freedon Nadd, Belia Darzu, Darth Zannah, who is alleged to have infiltrated the Jedi Temple, and of starships imbued with Sith consciousness. Is that your wish, Sidious, to become an academic?" (Darth Plagueis)

Plagueis: "Surely you are acquainted with the lore: King Ommin of Onderon, Darths Sion and Nihilus." (Darth Plagueis)


Plagueis has also been to Korriban (especially the Valley of the Dark Lords), Dromund Kaas, Ziost and many other Sith worlds to gain even more knowledge. He had a deep understanding and had texts of the Celestials and Rakata, the most ancient of knowledge. He had countless ancient texts from before, during, and just after Vitiate's era. Plagueis possessed many ancient Sith holocrons and a thousand years worth of Banite Sith knowledge. It is virtually impossible for Plagueis not to know of Vitiate and his feats.

Unless you can prove all of this wrong, don't you dare say "Vitiate's knowledge and history was sent to the grave and Plagueis doesn't know him." Besides, performing Vitiate's Nathema/Ziost ritual, which pales in comparison to Plagueis' unbalancing the Force on a galactic scale and beyond, isn't all that important.

"Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface."

Plagueis certainly knows he's more powerful than any Sith that came before him, which, as I have shown, includes Vitiate. And about the winter on Naboo: I know it's a High 6-A feat, but it's a multi-continent feat of Plagueis doing absolutely nothing but standing on Naboo for a brief visit. Imagine what he can do if he actually tried putting some effort into doing something. Vitiate's presence never caused such a drastic physical change to a planet, and Vitiate's death didn't send a tremor that affected the entire galaxy and sent the Force unprecedently deep towards the dark side. Plagueis has more than one published accolade of being the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist up to his time, and other statements that confirm his power. If mainly statements granted Vitiate the privilege of 4-B level, I can't see how Plagueis can't be in the same league.

Take it as you will.

Again, that's just Plagueis wanting immortality, which he pursued in a different method. Nobody knew how Vitiate became immortal, nobody even knew the ritual happened at all.

By actual feats and showings Plagueis is nowhere near Vitiate's level.

The Everlasting said:

Again, that's just Plagueis wanting immortality, which he pursued in a different method. Nobody knew how Vitiate became immortal, nobody even knew the ritual happened at all.

By actual feats and showings Plagueis is nowhere near Vitiate's level.

Click to expand...

Plagueis nowhere near Vitiate's level by showings?

Let's see...for Vitiate: needing 8000 Sith Lords to drain Nathema...not even his own power (although its pretty good mindrape, but still needed like 10 days of prep), draining Ziost (needing days of prep/meditation), defeated Revan when Scourge saw infinite possiblilites of either one of them winning, one-shotted Darth Marr, lost to Hero of Typhon when weakened, caused a large thunderstorm and earthquake on Yavin IV

Plagueis: High 6-A Naboo winter feat by just standing on the planet for a brief visit (Vitiate never did anything like this to a planet), unbalanced the Force of and beyond the galaxy after about a month of prep/meditation (astronomically better than Vitiate's prep feats), death tremor that affected the entire galaxy and the Force itself (Vitiate's two physical deaths only rumbled his residences), atomized many heavily armored Maladian assassins who were known for killing Jedi Knights and Masters by TPM era (and did this when holding back severely and at near-death), shot lightning across an entire vast landscape, defeated Venamis who was trained in secret by Tenebrous to counter everything Plagueis had, ran through a forest faster than lightning

Idk man...by showings/feats Plagueis is more impressive than Vitiate. By these showings, Vitiate shouldn't be anywhere close to 4-B level, but he got there mainly by statements/accolades. If that's the case, Plagueis should at least be in the same tier with the many statements/accolades I provided and his better showings.

Let me know if I missed any of Vitiate's showings, especially ones that make Plagueis look like a child in comparison

How about the fact that he was dropped into a star and survived, canonically? How about the fact that he could lifewipe planets sub-atomically with a thought, or cross interstellar distances, or the fact that he was the living embodiment of the Dark Side?

Matthew Schroeder said:

How about the fact that he was dropped into a star and survived, canonically? How about the fact that he could lifewipe planets sub-atomically with a thought, or cross interstellar distances, or the fact that he was the living embodiment of the Dark Side?

Click to expand...

Lifewipe planets with a thought? Right...it took 8000 Sith Lords to help him drain Nathema and it took him 10 days of prep, Ziost took a few days of prep. That surely is doing those things with a thought...Plagueis did a ritual that unbalanced the Force of the entire galaxy, possibly the whole universe, permanently and deeply towards the dark side in a month. How does Vitiate's rituals stand up to that?

What are you trying to prove with 'Living embodiment of the Dark Side'? Plagueis was 'a vessel that contained the full power of the Dark side'. Plagueis has that and more.

Travelling across stellar distances...as a spiritual entity. How does this put him leagues above Plagueis? Plagueis knew essence transfer and knew how to become a force ghost. He just avoided it at all costs because of his morals. Plagueis can definitely become an entity if he actually wanted to.

And dropped into a star. You mean that brief comment when talking to the Outlander about stars?

Valkorian: "I've always loved the stars."

Outlander: "The next time we fight, I'll drop you into one of them. See if that finishes you off."

Valkorian: "You would not be the first to try."

So this is the grand finale deal breaker? First of all, we don't even know the full context of this quick exchange of words. This explains nothing, how do you know he was actually dropped in a star? This doesn't explain that possible situation. This could be a sarcastic comment...if it actually is a superb feat that puts him leagues above Plagueis and anyone else, please provide me the full description and scene.

Plagueis has no feat above Vitiate's, you are just downplaying his statements and own feats. Plagueis' best feat is not even High 6-A, he is that via scaling.

Matthew Schroeder said:

Plagueis has no feat above Vitiate's, you are just downplaying his statements and own feats. Plagueis' best feat is not even High 6-A, he is that via scaling.

Click to expand...

I'm not downgrading anything bud. I'm stating the way the feats are using specific facts. Do you have anything that deliberately proves my claims and facts wrong?

Yes. You are using unproven statements, treating manipulating midi-chlorians and not aging as an AP feat, and using the back of a book cover.

Unproven statements? I'm using direct passages and info from star wars books and encyclopedias to make my points clear. How are my statements on Plagueis any more unclear/unproven than those of Vitiate or anyone else? Vitiate is at the tier he is because of statements and wank.

Like I asked before, is there any evidence that clearly and unquestionably prove my listed statements and facts completely wrong?

All of it.

I'm with Ever and Matt on the subject of Plagueis being weaker then prime Palps and the fact that Palpatine was nowhere near as powerful as he would be when he killed Plagueis. It should be noted that good ol Darth Forehead needs some MASSIVE revisions, for starters half of his powers dont even have links (they clearly can be quantified as Biological manip, Pain manip, Ressurection, and Death manip). And thats avoiding the fact he should (as the page claims) be comparable to Bane ala the Rule of Two (Bane did this)

And thats avoiding the "Suns flaring" quote that seems to imply Hego's death caused suns to go nova (Which we can use to derive AP from)

> (Bane did this)


Wait, that event was retconned to be different in the actual Bane Trilogy novels

I see. Of course Plagueis isnt as powerful as prime Sidious, we all know that. I'm mainly trying to show that Plagueis is better, or at least as good as Vitiate. When Plagueis was killed, Palpatine's powers did increase. But do we really know by how much? Everyone acts as if Palpatine's powers increased tenfold upon killing his master. It said 'the Dark side entered him' upon killing Plagueis whatever that means. Didn't say anything around the lines of increasing astronomically.

When Plagueis killed Tenebrous, he found a 'noticeable' increase in his powers, it wasn't anything completely earth shattering just a visible increase. It didn't say Plagueis was nowhere near as powerful when Tenebrous was alive. Why should Palpatine be any different? And a decade or two before Plagueis' prime, Sidious considered Plagueis more than a match for the Jedi council's most powerful members (Yoda, Windu, etc.)

I don't see how there's a monumental difference between Sidious before and after Plagueis' death.

Qawsedf234 said:

> (<a class="text" href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blogarkanine/Star_Wars:_Darth_Bane_%22nudges%22_a_planet_with_a_Moo">Bane did this</a>)


Wait, that event was retconned to be different in the actual Bane Trilogy novels

Click to expand...

Funny that because that event is still somewhat canon to Legends and the Admins have no qualms about using that feat to gauge power levels.

@Meme I'm not sure about making Hego more powerful then Vititate considering Vit and Palps being Avatars of the Dark Side itself, secondly i thought the quote claimed Plaguies could match Council Members but he should not be anywhere near the likes of Windu or Yoda (since Sidious, who is far more powerful then Plagueis and Vitiate ever were only stalemated Yoda and had trouble with Windu)

"Vitiate: needing 8000 Sith Lords to drain Nathema...not even his own power (although its pretty good mindrape, but still needed like 10 days of prep), draining Ziost (needing days of prep/meditation), defeated Revan when Scourge saw infinite possiblilites of either one of them winning, one-shotted Darth Marr, lost to Hero of Typhon when weakened, caused a large thunderstorm and earthquake on Yavin IV"

Vitiate's actual feats:

• Sub-atomized the surface of a planet, killing all life, sound, color and the Force itself, and absorbed that energy.
• Casually did the same thing to Ziost.
• Is the "Avatar of the Dark Side" and the most powerful Force user to ever exist.
• Got thrown in a sun and survived.
• Flew across the galaxy to reach Zakuul in six months or less.
• Transcended the need for a physical body, existing as pure Force energy without needing to die.
• Passively mentally breaks even Jedi High Council members to become completely and utterly subservient to him.
• Made Dromund Kaas experience permanent and violent electrical storms just by being on the planet.
• One-shot Darth Marr, at the time the most powerful Sith short of himself, Darth Nox and the Emperor's Wrath.
• Fought Darth Revan when he was far above a character who can erase all landmass, mountains, oceans, vegetation, animals, people, constructions, etc. on a planet, as well as consume the souls and minds of everyone in it, by speaking.
• Created and empowered the Dread Masters, Sith who can make hardened Republic soldiers commit suicide by talking to them, turned hundreds of Sith Lords and Jedi Masters permanently insane and loyal to them, and passively drove entire fleets to mass hysteria while they were in orbit.
• If not stopped, he would have replicated the ritual on a galactic scale, and would presumably do the same to every other galaxy, before spending eternity being everything, and would wait for the cycle to begin anew when the last living thing in the universe finally dies.

And for fun

• Can stop time, something absolutely no other Sith Lord, not even Sidious himself, has been shown capable of doing.
• Casually blocked the Scions of Zakuul from seeing specific details of the future, basically just by going "No".

Wait when did he stop time?

He does it a crapton in Knights of the Fallen Empire.

> Funny that because that event is still somewhat canon to Legends

> the Admins have no qualms about using that feat to gauge power levels.

That seems off to use a non-canon event to judge everyone's power level. But okay.

@Hellbeast

If you actually read Bane's profile you'd know that we don't use that feat for scaling.

Bane: Wow, I'm so strong now that I completed my training, I bet if I tried I could move a planet!

@Repp i have read Bane's profile, there is no mention of his Low 5-B feat nor is there any reason listed for why its not utilized.

@Matt I find your response odd since you seemed to be quite in favour of the calc on Dark's blog, im not sure if something changed your mind between then and now but i find your reply odd.

Bump

@Everlasting

Ok, I see that you posted a most specific list. I'm glad to see, now let's properly analyze these.

I'll start off with this: Vitiate's feats occur under amplifying circumstances. Nearly all of Vitiate's feats occur while he is amped, or supported by multiple other Force users, or both. A large number of feats are also accomplished with prep. Few of his feats are accomplished by virtue of his own power.

First addressing the ritual on Nathema, which is often brought up because it seems very impressive. However, the catch is that Vitiate could not even perform the ritual on his own, and required the help of 8000 other Sith Lords. Next, The Old Republic Encyclopedia tells a differing version of events, where the Sith Lords willingly agreed to the ritual when Vitiate lied to them about its nature. If Vitiate could simply enslave them to his will, he would not need to lie to acquire their aid. Even with all this help, he did not 'do it with a thought' like most of you believe, it required 10 days of prep.

"Eight thousand Sith Lords gathered on Nathema and agreed to partake in a ritual that would bind the Sith together as an ultimate dark side weapon.

"The ritual lasted ten days. Lord Vitiate orchestrated the sorcery and the planet Nathema was consumed by the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see."

Source: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

So the ritual is not indicative of Vitiate's own power, and he cannot accomplish it within his own power, and it cannot be used as a suitable argument in the battles forum. Knowing this ritual is an impressive feat of esoteric dark side knowledge, but it is frustrating to see this being used as an argument for Vitiate's power. He required more than eight thousand Sith Lords to support himself in a ritual that took ten days, and then, at last, did he perform the ritual. It is not a showing of his power by any stretch of the imagination.

Even then, the ritual failed and Vitiate is noted to be looking for immortality after that.

"Lord Scourge reveals the Emperor's true goal for the war: to complete a Sith ritual that will grant him unlimited power and immortality by eradicating all life in the galaxy."

The Old Republic Encyclopedia


"His strategy would lay the groundwork for the Republic's destruction, but would also prime the galaxy for the Emperor's ascension to immortality."

The Old Republic Encyclopedia


"While generations of Imperial citizens died to fuel his war machine, the Emperor's obsession with immortality continued to burn inside him."

The Old Republic Encyclopedia


"When the Emperor broke my will, he looked into my mind, and I was able to see the reflection of his own evil. Invading the Republic is only the first step of his plan. He has become obsessed with power and immortality. The dark side is like a cancer inside him; it grows faster than he can feed it. He has consumed an entire world, but he still hungers. And with his hunger comes an all-consuming fear. He has lived a thousand years; he knows he could live many thousands more. He is terrified of death."

The Old Republic: Revan

Yet immortality is noted to be an impossibility for Valkorion, a thing that he could never achieve, no matter how powerful he became.

"Yet, immortality is an impossibility. No matter how strong, how powerful, how godlike, all must perish. In the end, Valkorion could not escape the permanent, inevitable end to his existence. Finally, after thousands of years, the Immortal Emperor - his body, his spirit, the very essence of his being - is no more."

The Old Republic Codex: The Fall of Valkorion


This is quite sad, as even Darth Sion, a neophyte Sith who got killed many times by nameless, average Jedi, managed to obtain permanent immortality simply by willing it, no rituals or aid required.

"Sion finds that keeping his decomposing flesh tethered together with dark side energy is inexplicably painful, and requires endless concentration on the rage that festers inside him - but immortality is immortality."

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


"Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree,"dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives."

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


Next is the ritual on Ziost, which again Vitiate didn't use his own power. He needed the help from the life force of the entire population on Ziost just to start his ritual. And it didn't happen with a thought, it still took a few days of prep.

"Vitiate turned on the Imperial world Ziost and used the strength of the entire world's population to carry out the ritual once more and consume all life on Ziost." (SIth Emperor's ritual-Wookieepedia/starwars.wikia.com)

Plagueis severely unbalanced the Force of the galaxy and beyond permanently towards the dark side. He didn't need 8000 Sith Lords or an entire freakin planetary population to initiate the ritual. He meditated and used his own Sith alchemy to do this. Tell me which sounds harder: draining all of life and whatnot on a planet and needing 8000 Sith lords to help over a course of 10 days (or an entire population of Ziost within a few days), or unbalancing the Force--the very essence of all life and the fabric that binds the galaxy together--of the galaxy, possibly the entire universe, severely and irreversibly towards the dark side and doing it practically by himself within a month. Plagueis sounds astronomically better than Vitiate in this regard.


Next, you said 'Is the "Avatar of the Dark Side" and the most powerful Force user to ever exist.'

Plagueis was described as 'a terrifying nexus of energy that contained the full power of the dark side.' That's basically the same as Vitiate described as a dark side avatar, so idk what you're trying to prove with that.

Most powerful Force user to exist.....you're joking right? Have you not heard of Sidious or GM Luke or yoda? Vitiate is not a peer of Sidious and Luke. He is barely a peer of the likes of Tenebrous and Plagueis.


Next we have 'Got thrown in a sun and survived.'

I'll post the quick exchange AGAIN:

Valkorian: "I've always loved the stars."

Outlander: "The next time we fight, I'll drop you into one of them. See if that finishes you off."

Valkorian: "You would not be the first to try."

And you understand the full context of this? Any circumstances involved? This has never been mentioned or discussed anywhere else in the mythos to be initiated as an actual feat. If this did happen, please give me a full, descripted quote of him specifically doing so.


Next, you said '''Flew across the galaxy to reach Zakuul in six months or less.'

This is pretty cool, I will admit. Vitiate did a similar thing when he travelled to Ziost after gaining enough power on Yavin IV. But here's the thing: Yavin IV was a powerful dark side nexus and he did it at the Great Temple of Yavin of all places, so he got even more of an amp. Not sure how he got to Zakuul after Ziost, but I won't argue with that one since that is pretty neat.

You also said 'Transcended the need for a physical body, existing as pure Force energy without needing to die.'

Ok. A lesser Sith named Exar Kun did the exact same thing. How does that make him more powerful than Plagueis? That's a feat of knowledge and conducting rituals. Plagueis was so powerful that through sheer willpower, he can learn any Force ability he wanted. Remember how he was born with a very poor ability to use Sith alchemy? Well, he overcame that with sheer willpower and was stated to have perfected alchemy. Proof of this was when he used that very alchemy and meditation to unbalance the Force. That being said, he knew essence transfer and knew how to become a Force ghost, he knew how to revive the dead and create life, and he could even increase his midichlorian count. He could easily have discarded the need for a body if he put in the effort and not avoid it like a plague.

Also, Valkorion could not defeat his son Arcann as a spirit.

"My son is too strong. You need my power. Only together can we strike him down."

(The Old Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire)

Arcann is a guy who loses to non-Force users, by the way.

@Everlasting

And we have 'Passively mentally breaks even Jedi High Council members to become completely and utterly subservient to him.'

So this puts him leagues above Plagueis? Last time I checked, Vitiate also struggled and failed to break weak Force users and non-Force users:

The Sith Emperor could not possess the original Valkorion without hollowing him out over time first.

"I found Valkorion centuries ago. He was a great warrior. A champion of ancient Zakuul. It was only natural I hollow him out to use as my vessel."

The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne


The Sith Emperor failed to possess Lana Beniko, a very weak Sith.

"I couldn't help but notice you're not one of Vitiate's puppets."

"I've been preparing my mental defences ever since Yavin Four. Still, resistance hasn't been easy."

The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor


The Sith Emperor could not possess unconscious people.

"Soon as I crash-landed, the Emperor's puppets started coming for my shuttle, just like that. Maybe figured on some easy kills inside. Did the only thing I could think of. Rigged the ship to overload, fry everything in and around it. Tried to shield myself but still scrambled half my implants."

"And that stopped the attack."

"They went down, yeah. Some of the got back up, but they seemed out of it. Not possesses - dazed."

(The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor)

"So now we know: shock them unconscious and the tie is severed - at least for a while."

(The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor)


Valkorion could not possess a non-Force user and needed to hollow them out over time first.

"My spirit invaded your body in search of a new host. You resisted."

(The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne)

"I would hollow out your mind, take possession of your body, and ascend to the Eternal Throne. But first, I required new weapons to conquer your psyche."

(The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne)


Valkorion failed to break a non-Force user's mind, and was stomped and permanently obliterated by them in a battle of wills when he attempted to possess them.



SWTOR Knights of the Eternal Throne Ending Ôû║ CHAPTER 9, Trooper - Neutral


The Sith Emperor was too weak to detect Scourge's lying to his face, even though he invaded his mind.

Scourge was going to present the evidence in person. If the Emperor suspected he was lying—or if he was simply powerful enough to see the truth—escape would be impossible. He was putting himself at great risk for the sake of the cause—something he never would have considered before he met Revan.

[...]

Thinking about that power gave Scourge pause. Like Revan, the Emperor understood the Force in ways Scourge never would. It was possible he experienced the same kinds of visions as the Jedi; it was also possible he could peer into Scourge's mind and instantly know the truth of everything he was saying. Meeting him face-to-face could be tantamount to suicide.

No, Scourge thought. If that were the case, he would have sensed Nyriss's betrayal long ago.

As powerful as the Emperor might be, he was not omniscient.

[...]

"Rise, Lord Scourge," the Emperor told him, "and speak your piece."

Scourge stood up to address the Sith looming above him. The Emperor had thrown back his hood to reveal his face; his eyes were as black as the Void itself.

Staring into the hollow darkness of the Emperor's gaze, Scourge's mind flashed back to Nathema, and he shivered at the memory. He tried to speak, but the words stuck in his throat. His mouth was suddenly so dry he felt as if he might choke. He swallowed hard and coughed, finally bringing up enough saliva to talk.

"Three years ago I went to serve Darth Nyriss at your request," Scourge began. "I discovered that Darth Xedrix was a traitor. He had allied himself with separatists to kill Nyriss, and I executed him for his crimes."

"Your service has been noted," the Emperor assured him. There was something strange about the Emperor's voice. It didn't sound like the voice of a single being. It had an unusual echo and resonance, almost as if a great multitude were speaking his words in perfect symphony.

grim theory passed unbidden through Scourge's mind: was it possible all those that had been consumed by the ritual on Nathema still existed in some form within the Emperor himself? Nyriss said he'd devoured them, but what if she was only partially correct? What if he had imprisoned their spirits inside his own corporeal form, slowly feeding on their life energy over a thousand years to keep himself young and strong?

Scourge pushed such thoughts away; he needed to focus. One wrong word and the Emperor might see through his lies.

"I continued to serve Darth Nyriss after Xedrix's death," Scourge explained. "And I continued to investigate the separatists."

He paused, waiting for the Emperor to ask what he'd found. After a few seconds he realized the inquiry was not coming.

"I became suspicious of one of Nyriss's advisers, a man named Sechel. I turned the focus of my investigation to him. But Sechel was careful; he covered his tracks well. It took me until yesterday before I was certain of his guilt. He was also secretly working with the separatists, and he suffered the same fate as Xedrix."

"You should speak to Darth Nyriss if you seek to be rewarded for your actions," the Emperor said. Therewas no change in his tone, but the implied threat was clear: This is beneath me and you are wasting my time.

Scourge swallowed hard, his mouth dry once more. "That is not why I have come before you. Among Sechel's effects I found these datafiles."

He held up the disks.

"They show that Darth Xedrix was not the only member of the Dark Council to betray you. He was merely sacrificed to keep the involvement of the others secret. Darth Nyriss was also involved in the plot, along with several others."

The Emperor had no physical reaction to the revelation; he stayed as still and calm as death itself. But the air around Scourge seemed to grow colder.

"Are you certain of these accusations?"

"I would stake my life on them, my lord Emperor."

"You already have."

Scourge felt a shiver trace its way down his spine, and he knew that far more than his life was at risk. The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy. When he spoke of life and death, it had far deeper meaning than the mere physical existence of the lesser beings that served him.

"Does Nyriss know you are here?"

"No. I came to you as soon as I deciphered the data on Sechel's disks."

There was a long silence, and Scourge had the distinct impression that the Emperor was somehow communicating with someone outside the room.

A few seconds later the doors to the throne room opened and Captain Yarri strode in, accompanied by a Sith wearing the same dark robes as the Emperor.

They approached Scourge, and the robed Sith held out his hand expectantly. Scourge handed him the disks.

"Keep Lord Scourge in custody until this matteris settled," the Emperor intoned.

"Forgive me, Lord Emperor," Scourge said, speaking quickly but trying to keep his tone humble. "But Nyriss is expecting my return. If I am absent, she will grow suspicious."

The Emperor's dark eyes seemed to flicker with annoyance, and Scourge feared he had gone too far. The best he could hope for as punishment for his insolence would be a quick and relatively painless death.

However, when the Emperor spoke again it was not to pass judgment on him. "You are bold to speak to me in this way," he stated. "And because you are right, I will reward your initiative … this time. When Nyriss falls, you will be first in line for her seat on the Dark Council."

"Thank you, Lord Emperor," Scourge said with a bow.

"If your information proves false, however," the Emperor added, "you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine."

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor's mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

The Old Republic: Revan


Next, there's 'Made Dromund Kaas experience permanent and violent electrical storms just by being on the planet.'

Right. The Sith Emperor required multiple rituals to change weather on a planetary scale, and he had to sacrifice a great deal of his energy to pull them off perfectly.

"Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness ― rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm. (The Old Republic)

All of his feats in The Old Republic: Revan take place on Dromund Kaas, a planet saturated with a dark side aura:

"The powerful electrical storms were a physical manifestation of the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet - a power that had brought the Sith back here a millennium before, when their very survival had been in doubt."

Source: The Old Republic: Revan

So not only did Vitiate expend large amounts of energy to conduct many rituals in order to alter the planet's atmosphere, he did it on a powerful dark side nexus. Plagueis didn't do a single ritual nor did he expend the slightest amount of energy into sending Naboo into a near ice age and causing massive earthquakes all around the planet. He simply stood and the planet changed by his presence. Vititate went through all that hard work and his alters to the atmosphere still wasn't nearly as good as Plagueis'.


You also said 'One-shot Darth Marr, at the time the most powerful Sith short of himself, Darth Nox and the Emperor's Wrath.'

I agree, his lightning is pretty powerful. He one-shotted Arcann and Marr with it. But Sidious's lightning has incinerated Maul-level opponents, bent back Windu's blade, destroyed small armies, and lit up the surface of an entire planet. Dooku's lightning also held its own against Grandmaster Yoda for a while. Arcann and Marr are not Dooku or Vader-tier. Not even close.

Vitiate's lightning isn't unstoppable. When he confronted Master Braga and his Jedi strike team in the Citadel, some of the Jedi Knights even began to withstand his lightning (for a while, at least). The Hero of Tython also deflected it with his lightsaber, and the lightning didn't bend the blade back.

There's at least one featless Jedi nobody who walked against Vitiate's lightning.




That being said, Plagueis tanked not one, but two full powered lightning barrages from Sidious without putting up any Force defences/barriers, and fully absorbed them simply by replacing his midichlorians. The lightning failed to come close to killing Plagueis at all so Palpatine choked him. Sidious' lightning is a bit weaker when he killed Plagueis compared to well after Plagueis' death, but (like I posted in my last post) unless you can fully prove that Sidious received an astronomical amp from killing Plagueis that would totally blow away his master, his power increase can only be realistically be seen as modest.

While i disagree with the Arcann point i agree with your point on Valkorion surviving being thrown into a star, there's no real context behind it and even then he says "Try" not did but tried which makes me think someone attempted to throw him into a star but he would escape it somehow (though preferably i would ignore it entirely)

@Everlasting

"Fought Darth Revan when he was far above a character who can erase all life, civilization, plants, animals, structures, etc. on a planet by speaking."

Revan far above Nihilus? Nihilus is a planetary surface lifewiper that has shown telekinesis and drain feats far above Revan has ever shown. Nihilus replicated Vitiate's drain feats without the use of external power or rituals. Along with Meetra Surik's statements between Revan and Nihilus, this is all debatable.


"Created and empowered the Dread Masters, Sith who can make hardened Republic soldiers commit suicide by talking to them, turned hundreds of Sith Lords and Jedi Masters permanently insane and loyal to them, and passively drove entire fleets to mass hysteria while they were in orbit."

Dread masters were pretty cool. Although they did receive amp from Oricon many times, their mindrape and stuff were pretty neat. The only thing is that the Dread Masters got captured by a lone Jedi and a covert ops team, which IMO hurts them a lot. But the fact that Vitiate created them in the first place is respectable I must say.


"If not stopped, he would have replicated the ritual on a galactic scale, and would presumably do the same to every other galaxy, before spending eternity being everything, and would wait for the cycle to begin anew when the last living thing in the universe finally dies."

Ok I don't like this one bit. I find it pathetic that you're falling back on something that never happened in the first place and trying to validate it as an actual feat that occured. Not cool man.

However, this, as an argument, is the worst one that could be made for Vitiate. This ritual required incredible preparation and circumstances - it was not ten days worth of preparation, but centuries worth of preparation, as Lord Scourge reveals in The Old Republic .

"The Emperor has manipulated events for centuries towards one goal: performing an even greater ritual that will destroy this galaxy. But the ritual requires a great sacrifice to begin: billions of simultaneous deaths."

Source: The Old Republic

As can be seen, the ritual required centuries of preparation, as well the initial starter of billions of simultaneous deaths. Needing billions upon billions of deaths and centuries of prep just to start this so called 'ritual' doesn't shed a very bright light on his overall power. Moreover, when the Emperor failed this ritual and his plans were foiled by the Jedi Knight protagonist, the Emperor was literally weakened from that sheer effort of even attempting, and the ritual never succeeded at all anyways because the billions of simultaneous deaths never occurred. This, too, is revealed by Lord Scourge as the player nears the end of Act III.

"Don't be foolish. We have surprised the Emperor, but he will recover quickly. We cannot grant him time to gather his power."

Source: The Old Republic

The Jedi Knight protagonist (The Hero of Tython) also notes the same thing:

"His efforts against us have weakened him. Our enemy is vulnerable."

Source: The Old Republic

So again, the ritual is a good showing of esoteric dark side knowledge, but that's it. It is, once again, not indicative of his power level, or his potential power, or anything of that manner. Plagueis did his unbelievable unbalancing the Force feat within a month without the need of countless billions of simultaneous deaths just to start it up. Imagine what Plagueis can do if he was given centuries of prep!


"Can stop time, something absolutely no other Sith Lord, not even Sidious himself, has been shown capable of doing."

No he cannot stop time bud. He only slowed the Outlander's perspective of it, because he was in the Outlander's mind.

"The Outlander sat upon the throne, becoming immobilized in agony as the power of the throne pulsed through their body; when it was done, the fleet had stopped firing at last. Valkorion appeared before the Outlander, congratulating them for finally becoming ruler of Zakuul and master of the Eternal Throne...before lashing out with his power, trying to force the Outlander to submit to his will. He revealed that he intended to hollow out the Outlander as a new vessel for his immortal spirit, just as he had done to the original Valkorion centuries before, and take the Throne back for himself. Though the Outlander tried to resist, Valkorion shattered the mind of his unwilling host, forcing their very being into the depths of their own psyche."


"Casually blocked the Scions of Zakuul from seeing specific details of the future, basically just by going "No"."

Yes he did do that. But I'm not sure how this is was meant to validate him as higher than Plagueis. The Muun's unbalancing the Force feat made 'seeing the future' murky and uncertain for every Jedi in the galaxy, and this lasted for decades. This is far more impressive than Vitiate.


Overall, stop wanking Vitiate. People often forget how terrible of a fighter Vitiate is, how much he relies on nexuses and rituals, how often he's failed to dominate/possess even non-Force sensitives, and also how vulnerable all of these characters are to the non-Force sensitive protags, who are just as canon as their Jedi and Sith counterparts.

If Plagueis and Vitiate ever fought each other:

Instead of trying to upgrade Plagueis to Large Star level, perhaps a Sidious downgrade would be better suited for this, considering that Palpatine was concerned about him being alive even after he managed to kill him off with Force lightning, in his sleep no less.

@MemeMan40 The word Corsair has not been mentioned in this thread, where Naga Sadow used the Sith Crystals attached onto it to drastically increase his Force Power, and cause a star to implode (causing a supernova as a result). This is where Vitiate's Large Star level/Solar System level rating most likely comes from, with Vitiate's Force Powers > Naga Sadow's Force Powers with the Corsair.

But is the above statement true though? I am unsure.

@Khr

No. Sidious became 4-B after killing Plagueis.

Vitiate's power also causes stars to burn black, worlds to turn to ash, and can consume galaxies with his rituals.