Upgrade for Darth Nihilus

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

This is all based on this quote from Kreia describing Nihilus when he Force Drains:

He, if he can be called a man any longer, is one of the Dark Lords that pursues you. He is one who learned one of the greatest of the Sith teachings, and it enslaved him. He is a breach in the Force, capable of consuming the lives around him. One cannot have power on that magnitude and still perceives the universe as we do, as most of us do. And it devours him as he devours others. His mere presence kills all around him, slowly feeding him. He is already dead. It is merely a question on how many die before he falls. Do not think of him as one would a weapon, or one of your warship of the Republic. It is terrible, but it is still a subtle thing. And that is why they and their techniques must be wiped out. No one must again learn what her master did. Instead of sending connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely. Then you understand how terrible such a power is, and why it must be ended. It is an empty road to the Dark Side, and by travelling it, the price is death before one's time. It is not something he can direct, or focus. Much like hunger itself, he is more of a hole in the Force than a living thing. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses. And the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts. And he cares nothing for the Sith, or its teachings, or the Jedi. And when the Jedi are dead, her master will feed on the galaxy, the Republic and eventually consume the Sith as well. There is no future is the empty galaxy he sees. And that is why he must be stopped: the breach must be sealed before his po1wer grows beyond even what we can hope to stop. - Kriea

A calculation was made to better reflect the reality of what was described, but that's not the full picture of what happens when Nihilus drains a planet as he is draining of the Force and not just energy. A better description would be to say that Nihilus can affect the fabric of the Living Force to such a degree that it leaves what we could consider voids in it, which would be planets like Katarr, that are absent of the Force.

Visas Marr says as much:

I was there when the planet died. To see everything around you extinguished... it... was as if I was blinded. It was as if the Force had... been bled from the world. - Visas Marr

And he made me "see." And for the first time, I saw the galaxy... To this galaxy, my world, absent the currents and spectrums of the Force, was nothing but crude matter, rock, flesh, emptiness - Visas Marr

And there are multiple scans that demonstrate the Living Force's higher dimensionality above the 3/4 dimensional universe of Star Wars placing the Living Force at least at 5-D to 6-D. Nihilus should scale from being able to affect it so greatly giving a rating of at least High 5-A+, possibly Low 1-C:

https://imgur.com/a/QjpeXC9

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The Force is not inherently good or evil. It has its light side and its dark side. It is a tool, and like any other tool it can be misused or even broken. Ignorance leads to improper use of the Force; the unwise use the Force emotionally. Incorrect use of the Force can lead to death and destruction. Only through proper training can the Force be justly applied. In addition, the Force is a living entity, generating life. The Force is a necessary and vital part of the universe. When running a Jedi campaign, think of the Force as more than merely a means by which the characters can gain extreme powers. It is a metaphor for the universal nature of life itself, vibrant, dynamic, and dangerous. All Jedi are permeated by the Force, just as all beings are, but the Jedi are most aware of it. Events in one region might affect another as if the galaxy were one interconnected being, with the Force as its blood and life. - Power of the Jedi

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil." - George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

"The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of nature that I wanted to include in the film." - George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002

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Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Isaacbobanka]

So your suggesting low 1-C? The thread described higher dimensional than 3/4 in text but i didn't see a tier suggestion but rather a description.

 

[Kellex]

If you're gonna use discord images, upload them to an image hosting site and use those instead cause discord(app) gets censored.

 

[Cropfist]

I disagree, this is an indirect chain reaction from Nihilus destroying the force's physical conduits.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

I disagree, this is an indirect chain reaction from Nihilus destroying the force's physical conduits.

The Force is UES, if Nihilus isn't essentially tearing holes in the Living Force whenever he Force Drains, then what even is he doing?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

So your suggesting low 1-C? The thread described higher dimensional than 3/4 in text but i didn't see a tier suggestion but rather a description.

Honestly I was more hoping on an evaluation based on the scans provided

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Honestly I was more hoping on an evaluation based on the scans provided

Maybe this should go in a general discussion thread? I don't really see any content to revise.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I said this on the discussion thread and I'll say it here: This is hax.

Nihilus is not significantly effecting a tier 1 structure enough to have this be legit AP.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Nihilus is not significantly effecting a tier 1 structure enough to have this be legit AP.

He actually is, what else would a Wound in the Force be, it’s part of why Kreia wants to stop him

 

[DaReaperMan]

He actually is, what else would a Wound in the Force be, it’s part of why Kreia wants to stop him

You can have tier 1 hax and do quite literally ******* nothing tier 1. As someone who stans the **** out of Old Republic Era and Nihilus in general, this isn't tier 1 AP for one simple reason: Nihilus is not destroying 50% of the living force in one shot. He's not even destroying 1% of the living force in one shot. He's destroying 0.00000000001% of the force in one shot, if that.

Tell me, if I remove a cell from your skin, is that significantly effecting you?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Tell me, if I remove a cell from your skin, is that significantly effecting you?

No, but if you stab a knife into my arm, that will definitely affect me! That's really what Nihilus is doing. And if Nihilus really was only destroying so little of the Living Force, what made killing him much of a priority?

Wouldn't Nihilus go on to consume the entire Living Force throughout the galaxy over time if he was allowed to have his way?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Maybe this should go in a general discussion thread? I don't really see any content to revise.

But, it's to upgrade Nihilus though

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Tell me, if I remove a cell from your skin, is that significantly effecting you?

In fairness, that's not what anyone would call a "wound".

 

[DaReaperMan]

No, but if you stab a knife into my arm, that will definitely affect me! That's really what Nihilus is doing. And if Nihilus really was only destroying so little of the Living Force, what made killing him much of a priority?

Wouldn't Nihilus go on to consume the entire Living Force throughout the galaxy over time if he was allowed to have his way?

OVER. TIME. What is one single planet to the entire galaxy, remind me.

Also, him doing it is barely different to dropping a bomb that wipes out the galaxy. End Result is still no life. This is why murdering a planet like a Khornate Berserker affects the living force. It's a verse mechanic.

Not to mention, there comes up scaling problems in that Mandalore the Ultimate would be ******* tier 1 scaling to Revan, when he's a non-force-sensitive!

 

[Rex_Eckles]

Mandalore the Ultimate would be ******* tier 1 scaling to Revan, when he's a non-force-sensitive!

Wouldn't the contention be scaling a non-force user to a force-user instead of quibbling about what tier that would make him?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Wouldn't the contention be scaling a non-force user to a force-user instead of quibbling about what tier that would make him?

He literally went 1v1 convincingly with Mando Wars Revan. Who is stated superior to Nihilus. Not scaling him to revan is the same as saying "nuh uh, uh... vibes?"

 

[Rex_Eckles]

He literally went 1v1 convincingly with Mando Wars Revan. Who is stated superior to Nihilus.

I know, why does it matter what tier he is? If he's fought a Force-user and is accepted to scale to that Force User, what's the argument? No matter what tier the Force-user is, it'll sound absurd for a non-Force user to contend with them.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I know, why does it matter what tier he is? If he's fought a Force-user and is accepted to scale to that Force User, what's the argument? No matter what tier the Force-user is, it'll sound absurd for a non-Force user to contend with them.

I'm gonna be blunt, force users scaling to non-force users is basically uncommon in Legends. What isn't kosher is making an entire section of the verse tier 1 based on an overtime feat.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I'm gonna be blunt, force users scaling to non-force users is basically uncommon in Legends. What isn't kosher is making an entire section of the verse tier 1 based on an overtime feat.

So the argument against the tier 1 feat is if it's actually combat-applicable, NOT that Mandalore the Ultimate would scale to it. If the feat is invalid, that's that.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

What isn't kosher is making an entire section of the verse tier 1 based on an overtime feat.

Let me repeat myself, Nihilus is essentially giving a stab wound to the Living Force whenever he Force Drains. The burden of proof is to show that's not what is happening at all, otherwise creating a Wound in the Force loses its meaning

In fairness, [taking one cell from your skin] not what anyone would call a "wound".

 

[DaReaperMan]

Let me repeat myself, Nihilus is essentially giving a stab wound to the Living Force whenever he Force Drains

The force can take a lot of ******* stab wounds then, billions, maybe trillions?

That's not significantly effecting.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

That's not significantly effecting.

Why was it called a wound?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why was it called a wound?

I don't know, why do we assume "Wound in the Force" means "Significantly effect" when these wounds come from life wiping planets? This is not special for Nihilus, this is anyone with a big enough bomb or a big of will to kill an entire planet.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

I don't know, why do we assume "Wound in the Force" means "Significantly effect" when these wounds come from life wiping planets? This is not special for Nihilus, this is anyone with a big enough bomb or a big of will to kill an entire planet.

Did those other people wound the Force?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Did those other people wound the Force?

The living force is the force of all living beings combined. Discounting force uses like Valkorion voring Ziost, yeah IIRC.

 

[Rex_Eckles]

The living force is the force of all living beings combined. Discounting force uses like Valkorion voring Ziost, yeah IIRC.

So, is "Wound in the Force" more metaphorical in this case?

 

[DaReaperMan]

So, is "Wound in the Force" more metaphorical in this case?

It's... Strange. Out of home so I can't go in detail RN.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I said this on the discussion thread and I'll say it here: This is hax.

Nihilus is not significantly effecting a tier 1 structure enough to have this be legit AP.

Pretty much

 

[Legion350]

Let me repeat myself, Nihilus is essentially giving a stab wound to the Living Force whenever he Force Drains. The burden of proof is to show that's not what is happening at all, otherwise creating a Wound in the Force loses its meaning

Are there any statements suggesting his power is directly affecting the Living Force at a higher dimensional level or beyond space and time? I just want to point out that the Wookieepedia link you sent does not support your argument. Because it mentions the Death Star created a wound by destroying Alderaan & the Sun Crusher destroying a Star Systems created wounds. This seems to be a byproduct of Nihilus consuming life & a verse mechanic for the Living Force?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Sees a Darksider use the Force to wipe out lifeforms on a planetary level

Mention the “wound in the force” that involves events that inflict major losses of life that can been felt by other Force Users that have damn good Force sense to sense the said wound or in some cases, special individuals that are considered a wound in the Force.

As a friendly reminder, every living being, regardless of them being Force users or not, technically have the Force since the living Force is connected to everything living IIRC.

I honestly don’t agree with the OP as much as that is obviously a in-verse mechanism.

 

[LordTracer]

I said this on the discussion thread and I'll say it here: This is hax.

Nihilus is not significantly effecting a tier 1 structure enough to have this be legit AP.

Disagree FRA. A lot of y'all are taking the term “Wound in the Force” way too literally.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Oh, just to been clear, even in the original Trilogy,
Obi Wan sense the Death Star blowing up a planet which cause a wound in the Living Force as a result of a lot of deaths.

I bringing this up as a example to prove my point here

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

So, is "Wound in the Force" more metaphorical in this case?

Wound in the Force/Legends

A wound in the Force, also known as an echo or hole in the Force, was a type of catastrophic disturbance in the Force; it was a weakness in the fabric of the Force, caused by a traumatic event. The Force existed in all life, and when many lives were extinguished, especially in a short period of...

starwars.fandom.com

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Are there any statements suggesting his power is directly affecting the Living Force at a higher dimensional level or beyond space and time?

I did say in the OP that Nihilus can affect the fabric of the Living Force to such a degree that it leaves what we could consider voids in it, which would be planets like Katarr, that are absent of the Force.

 

[Xavis10]

A lot of weight seems to be put on what "a wound in the Force" is, but the truth is that it's never expanded upon enough in the verse. I don't really agree with scaling Nihilus' AP to that (though hax is somewhat feasible I guess), because as Reaper said somewhere above, the Living Force can sustain a lot of 'wounds'.

Also worth noting that the best definition we ever get for Force wounds is in the Book of Sith, Plagueis' section, they're described as a massive collective loss of life which may be felt by other force users. I don't have the scan at hand, but once I do I'll update this message.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@DaReaperMan I added a little more to the OP

 

[Harith0cell]

Bump

 

[LEGENDS_LORD_VADER]

I think that's completely wrong.

G-Canon refers to the first 6 films and their descriptions, not the Expanded Universe. Also, George's descriptions are G-Canon, not EU. You've confused Legends with G-Canon.

Your Living Force thing is ridiculous because since the Living Force is infinite, those who use it don't use its full power; they only use the level it's at. Your other mistake is that it doesn't affect the Living Force excessively; it only affects it enough to destroy planets, which is nothing compared to the Living Force. So Nihilus doesn't affect the Living Force excessively.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I think that's completely wrong.

G-Canon refers to the first 6 films and their descriptions, not the Expanded Universe. Also, George's descriptions are G-Canon, not EU. You've confused Legends with G-Canon.

Your Living Force thing is ridiculous because since the Living Force is infinite, those who use it don't use its full power; they only use the level it's at. Your other mistake is that it doesn't affect the Living Force excessively; it only affects it enough to destroy planets, which is nothing compared to the Living Force. So Nihilus doesn't affect the Living Force excessively.

“
"The EU is a well of ideas, and there's what's on screen. They don't live in the same universe. Everyone wants to think so, I know, and there is a lot of effort to make it all work, but it's pretty clear when you start really looking at it that when you take ideas from the printed realm and bring it on screen, it's not always the same. They relate. There are similarities. I still enjoy a lot of those stories. They influence you. They inspire you, which I think is the whole point of having an EU. We try hard to honor things when we can, to give nods to things, but at the end of the day there is a difference between what you see in the Star Wars films and TV series and what you see in those books. It's mainly because writing for the visual medium is different, as Henry Gilroy will attest to. I mean, look at the monumental task in the opposite direction that Peter Jackson had to go trough in taking the written form of The Lord of the Rings and trying to distill it onto the screen. There's a lot of difficulty in translating between the written word and the moving image. The writers of the Star Wars books have to somehow capture the energy, the excitement, the snappy dialogue, and all the things we get from the Star Wars world, and put it on a page. That's a very big challenge. We just need to think of it all as a creative collection of fun ideas separate from what George Lucas has made, I think a lot of EU creators think of like that, and like it when they see their creations on screen, whether or not it's used one-to-one as they created it or not."



Speaking of which, there is even a confirmation regarding this part.

We really need to make a thread regarding Star Wars Continuity as there is very blatant nuances and statements outside of Lee himself.

Speaking of which, there is the bunch of other statements to consider as well.

Canon

The Star Wars canon is the continually evolving body of authoritative works comprising the official story of Star Wars, encompassing movies, television series, novels, comics, and video games. George Lucas set the original main six Star Wars films and the content he developed and produced in...

starwars.fandom.com

 

[Xavis10]

Not to mention that the EU is one single unified continuity, there's no "canon hierarchy per a fan's optic", per Chee (adapted).