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DBS Episode 127 Upgrades

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JackJoyce

JackJoyce

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Android 17 was keeping up with Jiren & wounded him with a ki blast. Also he negated Jiren's final attack with Self-destruct. I think that grants him a Low-2C ranking.

If it's still considered that Jiren is holding back then both Goku & Vegeta should be downgraded to 3-A
Screenshot 2018-02-11-10-20-05
 
Well 17 is shown to hold off Low 2-C opponents on his own quite consistently now. First he was putting a slight fight with Toppo and now he survived Jiren's repeated attacks, damaged an off-guard Jiren and matched his attack with his final barriers and self-destruct.

So he now has barrier manipulation and self-destruction too.
 
At least he is Low 2-C with his self-destruction. Unless it is passed off as an outlier, but self-destruction has been proven repeatedly to be much powerful than the normal capabilities of the fighter.
 
Well he was able to fight with Toppo for a decent amount of time, now He fought and even damaged Jiren. This is pretty consistent so I agree with making him low 2-C.
 
Also Reactive Evolution should be added to Jiren's Profile as 17 Failed to damage him with the same attack 2nd time, and Jiren then confirmed itself that it would work only once!!!!!
 
Fusion Fanatic said:
Also Reactive Evolution should be added to Jiren's Profile as 17 Failed to damage him with the same attack 2nd time, and Jiren then confirmed itself that it would work only once!!!!!
Click to expand...


That's not reactive evolution. Jiren was just caught off-guard the first time.
 
So Android 17 should be Low 2-C but Goku and Vegeta are 3-A? No. It's obvious they're both stronger, and they have the feats to prove it, so if 17 is Low 2-C, and Goku and Vegeta stay Low 2-C.
 
Goku and Vegeta should definitely stay Low 2-C, however, Jiren is implied to be even more serious than he's ever been ever since Toppo got knocked out. I'm unsure about 17 having Low 2-C Attack Potency, except maybe via self-destruction. Although, his barrier being Universe level+ durability seems reasonable.

Although, let's wait for someone like @Dark649 or Matthew Schroeder to comment here.
 
Toppo was explicitly stated to be far more powerful than 17, specifically holding back not to kill him and could easily destroy him. And even then he was still getting tossed around and did zero damage to Toppo. Whereas Jiren took a punch stated able to defeat Toppo like it was nothing. So 17 wounding Jiren is an outlier. Even if you want to scale him to Toppo, which I don't think is legit.

Also can't wait for the inevitable backwards scaling this to Anilaza. The same backwards scaling that argues "17 didn't get any stronger since his fight with Anilaza" while ignoring the fact that 17 not getting any stronger since then just proves that him scaling to Jiren is an outlier.
 
I agree with Ryukama, although, what about Universe level+ barrier durability? The backwards scaling thing is also just no, at least for now.
 
Sceptilespy said:
So Android 17 should be Low 2-C but Goku and Vegeta are 3-A? No. It's obvious they're both stronger, and they have the feats to prove it, so if 17 is Low 2-C, and Goku and Vegeta stay Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
No I stated 17 deserves a Low 2-C else all 3 of them should be downgraded to 3-A.

He survived repeated assaults from Jiren & still got up in the end. While both Goku & Vegeta faded (although they were tired)
 
>Jiren is still holding back.

Again, not likely. It's at the end of the tournament and he's the last member with only three minutes left. If he's holding back it's barely doing so. Like he's at 80% at least.

I also agree with Ryukama btw. 17 and Frieza remain 3-A unfortunately although 17 seems to be stronger. I don't think we can just dish out High 3-As with no proper reason either.
 
Poor 17...only Goku and Vegeta get upgraded because the plot demands it. We can at least give 17 a shout out for sacrificing himself for those morons ;_;

Rip Frieza btw
 
Well I agree with Ryukama too.

17 should be Low 2-C with his self-destruct only. And should get barrier manipulation and self-destruction added to his profile.

That's all I guess.
 
It doesn't make any sense for 17 to be stronger than Pre-Ultra Instinct Goku. To me it's just this show being inconsistent with Power Scaling as usual.
 
No I stated 17 deserves a Low 2-C else all 3 of them should be downgraded to 3-A.

He survived repeated assaults from Jiren & still got up in the end. While both Goku & Vegeta faded (although they were tired)

I think this one is the best answer here. The show has been incosistent too many times with Jiren and low 2C mess. The episode shows 17 standing against Jiren.
 
I agree with Low 2-C in 17's barrier and the self destruct,

though 17 was actually able to harm and survive the same attacks Goku and Vegeta were getting, and I doubt Jiren being off a guard would have made his durability 3-A there

Could we possibly have it saying 'Possibly Low 2-C' as a compromise
 
He fought Goku who was holding back but we were never sure whether Goku meant by holding back Kaioken or in SSB. But in the tournament it seemed more likely that Goku was holding back Kaioken as Android 17 fought Base Toppo a SSBKKx2 Lvl fighter and even managed to hold him off in a Beam struggle for a while.

But yeah Android 17 should get At least 3-A Possibly Low 2-C w/ Barriers and Low 2-C via Self-Destruct
 
as much as I hate the current power of 17 (how the heck he become so powerful) I have to say he's Low 2-C for capable to harm Jiren (this is the first time "a wound" is inflicted upon his body lol) and his insane barrier is more durable than any other characters capable of.

My mind opposed the Low 2-C status, but the feats said otherwise... gg DBS.
 
Again, 17 damaging Jiren was only because Jiren was caught off-guard. The laser or bullet doesn't become 3-A for damaging an off-guard Goku, does it?

17 pushing Jiren is inconsistent and outlier as he was depicted far weaker than Toppo, the same Toppo who is fodder to this Jiren. Jiren blocked one of Vegeta's punch effortlessly and said that he was able to see why Vegeta defeated Toppo. That tells us that Jiren is much stronger than GoD Toppo. Heck 17 was getting pushed by a base Toppo. So in short Jiren >>>>>> GoD Toppo > 17
 
The only thing which is blatantly evident is that Lapis was able to cancel out Jiren's attack using self-destruct. So he is Low 2-C with self-destruct.

An argument can also be made about his reinforced barrier series being able to hold off Jiren's attack for a short amount of time.

In short, Lapis should become Low 2-C with self-destruct and barrier only. And these abilites of self-destruction and barrier manipulation should be added to his profile.
 
NO.

Stop trying to rationalize the biggest outlier in the history of Dragon Ball. 17 is not going beyond 3-A.

Even with barriers and self-destruct it is an outlier. You're basically saying he has defenses infinitely stronger than his strength, and can unleash infinitely-more energy than normal by blowing himself up. This makes no logical sense.
 
Wasn't it already agreed on that the difference between Universe and Universe+ isn't infinite in Dragon Ball? So it is possible for Android 17 to get Low 2-C via self-destruct.
 
Well, self destruction has been repeatedly shown to output much more power than normal capabilties. Kinda the whole purpose of that move. Same goes for barriers, otherwise why would he even use it?

Matt, even you said that the gap is not infinity in most fiction.
 
But it is in our Tiering System, so explain how it makes sense in any way, shape or form. Also it's an outlier. 17 being stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku first time makes no logical sense. How did he not solo the rest of the tournament and struggle against vastly, vastly weaker people.

17 was just severely wanked by the writers. Even Self-destruct.

If 17 had Low 2-C barriers no one should hurt him. If 17 was strong enough to harm Jiren, no one would pose a challenge.
 
Even Super Saiyan Blue 17 is an outlier. And the only reason 18 is 3-A here is because people are biased towards DBS and have literally no concept of outliers.

If 18 had done a Low 2-C feat people would argue it wasn't an outlier, and demand it be scaled to Krillin.

Because f*ck consistency, logic, common sense, all that matters is that we make DBS moar stronker than rival verses, and have Guku be the most powahful of all.
 
Matthew is right, i talked long before how a characters power is portrayed differently based on the episode due to writer shifting and etc. 17 had to escape from God Toppo, who was much stronger than him, but inferior to Jiren and easily broke his barriers.
 
At this point I'm seriously starting to believe you have some kind of grudge against 17. Before the second half of the tournament you kept going on about how 17 isn't SSB lvl but now it turns out he's SSB lvl that borderlines SSBKK. You also went on about how Gohan is stronger than 17. So why should Gohan be SSB lvl in a day and not 17 who trained for years?
 
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