- 15,332
- 7,563
Let's roll.
Introductio
This is long overdue. It has been bothering me for a while, and the recent Warhammer 40k outlier calculation made me realize this needs to be removed from our ratings and tagged as an outlier.
And yes, you know what this is about. It's about Irenic's speed feat again.
Let's just roll. Also, big shout-out to Matt for highlighting this thread once I post it (add Precog to my profile) and also being a massive help with this particular topic in general.
The Feat
We all know the feat by now. It originated from this calculation, which is fine, of course. It was evaluated by several calc group members and deemed correct. If it's consolation, I also give it a kudos.
However, the feat itself is a blatant outlier and it contradicts the other two big speed feats the verse has. In fact, it even goes against our policy on OTHER popular series in this wiki.
First, let's take a look at who performed the feat. Irenic. An absolute fodder-tier, who stands at the very bottom of the Hierarchy of Laguna, only higher than footsoldiers or some lower-level Angels that are barely named.
Said fodder basically scales to literally every single other character in the verse, when none of them have shown feats on this level. In fact, the god-tiers of Bayonetta have their own MFTL feats, and guess what - they are not remotely close to Irenic's big hundreds of quadrillions of times faster than light mark.
Let's take a look at the arguments that are made against this.
Irenic's feat is a MFTL+ feat in a verse of MFTL+ feats
This argument is the worst by far. Simply because it fails to take into account the scale of said feats. The MFTL+ tier is literally the broaded speed tier by far; it is infinitely big, since it goes from 1000c to speed that surpasses time itself.
Basically, this can be used to explain away all outliers in fiction. Replace "Irenic" with "Roboute Guilliman" and "MFTL+" with "Tier 4" and you have the same argument, with the exception this is now about another verse (in this case, Warhammer 40,000). Does it look reasonable?
No, it doesn't. Why? Because the feat that puts Guilliman at At least 4-A is extremely higher than all other feats, even the 4-B ones (which were already extremely high-end to begin with), and it contradics the scale of the verse. The Primarchs are all consistently 5-A to 4-B, and then you have this one, extremely in-the-face feat that contradicts literally everything else in a heartbeat. Explained in-depth by Matt here.
It is thus considered an outlier, despite the fact it's technically only a few thousand times above the next-best Primarch-level feat in WH40K.
Now, look at Irenic's feat. The next best speed feat in the entire verse is Jubileus, a GOD-TIER's 350c feat. It is literally the only other FTL speed feat in the entire verse, and it's a god-tier feat that is trillions of times slower than this one feat, performed by the weakest member of the Hierarchy of Laguna.
Moving onto the next argument.
Whenever a fodder-tier performs a feat that is above the god-tiers, we scale them to the fodder
Once again, this argument completely glosses over the issue, and ignores the concept of outliers altogether. It implies every single feat that is above the god-tiers can be accepted without being looked over, discussed and being potentially rejected due to this issue.
But let's actually humor this argument. I'll take an example from one of my favorite series, God of War. Everyone knows I love it and always try to upgrade it as soon as frickin' possible. I'm to God of War as Cal is to Zelda and Kirby, but even I have to draw the line.
On God of War, there is a feat that is identical to the Irenic situation. A fodder-tier Warrior who serves Zeus is stated to have a move that grants him the speed of light, named Hyperion Dash. Now, let's go-on about how it is so similar to Irenic:
The only difference in the whole situation boils down to the fact that the speed of light feat is not accepted for God of War, just like it shouldn't be. Because said feat openly contradicts the established speed of the God-Tiers, and would wank the rest of the verse horribly. In fact, it would scale to the FIRST boss of the franchise if accepted.
See the similarities? I certainly do.
Overall, keeping Irenic and literally the entire verse at MFTL+ openly contradicts how we do things here, both our regulations regarding outliers and other franchises, and it should NOT stay in the profiles. No matter how weakened Jubileus was (not actually enough to be this slow), she isn't somehow faster than Irenic while only having a single FTL feat.
Let's list franchises that would openly need to be scaled to absurdly wanked tiers if we're going to let Irenic get out with this outlier:
Final Considerations
Now that I stated the reasons why I (and many others) believe Irenic should be downgraded, I suggest that the low and mid-tiers receive MHS+ scaling, due to some of 'em having true lightning-related abilities.
Similarly, Jubileus, Bayo, Queen Sheba and the others should be downgraded to FTL+ via Jubileus's own feat, which is 350c.
That's roughly it.
Agree: Matthew Schroeder, Js250476, Unite My Rice, Executor N0, Monarch Laciel, Gargoyle One
Disagree: WeeklyBattles
Uncertai: SomebodyData
Introductio
This is long overdue. It has been bothering me for a while, and the recent Warhammer 40k outlier calculation made me realize this needs to be removed from our ratings and tagged as an outlier.
And yes, you know what this is about. It's about Irenic's speed feat again.
Let's just roll. Also, big shout-out to Matt for highlighting this thread once I post it (add Precog to my profile) and also being a massive help with this particular topic in general.
The Feat
We all know the feat by now. It originated from this calculation, which is fine, of course. It was evaluated by several calc group members and deemed correct. If it's consolation, I also give it a kudos.
However, the feat itself is a blatant outlier and it contradicts the other two big speed feats the verse has. In fact, it even goes against our policy on OTHER popular series in this wiki.
First, let's take a look at who performed the feat. Irenic. An absolute fodder-tier, who stands at the very bottom of the Hierarchy of Laguna, only higher than footsoldiers or some lower-level Angels that are barely named.
Said fodder basically scales to literally every single other character in the verse, when none of them have shown feats on this level. In fact, the god-tiers of Bayonetta have their own MFTL feats, and guess what - they are not remotely close to Irenic's big hundreds of quadrillions of times faster than light mark.
Let's take a look at the arguments that are made against this.
Irenic's feat is a MFTL+ feat in a verse of MFTL+ feats
This argument is the worst by far. Simply because it fails to take into account the scale of said feats. The MFTL+ tier is literally the broaded speed tier by far; it is infinitely big, since it goes from 1000c to speed that surpasses time itself.
Basically, this can be used to explain away all outliers in fiction. Replace "Irenic" with "Roboute Guilliman" and "MFTL+" with "Tier 4" and you have the same argument, with the exception this is now about another verse (in this case, Warhammer 40,000). Does it look reasonable?
No, it doesn't. Why? Because the feat that puts Guilliman at At least 4-A is extremely higher than all other feats, even the 4-B ones (which were already extremely high-end to begin with), and it contradics the scale of the verse. The Primarchs are all consistently 5-A to 4-B, and then you have this one, extremely in-the-face feat that contradicts literally everything else in a heartbeat. Explained in-depth by Matt here.
It is thus considered an outlier, despite the fact it's technically only a few thousand times above the next-best Primarch-level feat in WH40K.
Now, look at Irenic's feat. The next best speed feat in the entire verse is Jubileus, a GOD-TIER's 350c feat. It is literally the only other FTL speed feat in the entire verse, and it's a god-tier feat that is trillions of times slower than this one feat, performed by the weakest member of the Hierarchy of Laguna.
Moving onto the next argument.
Whenever a fodder-tier performs a feat that is above the god-tiers, we scale them to the fodder
Once again, this argument completely glosses over the issue, and ignores the concept of outliers altogether. It implies every single feat that is above the god-tiers can be accepted without being looked over, discussed and being potentially rejected due to this issue.
But let's actually humor this argument. I'll take an example from one of my favorite series, God of War. Everyone knows I love it and always try to upgrade it as soon as frickin' possible. I'm to God of War as Cal is to Zelda and Kirby, but even I have to draw the line.
On God of War, there is a feat that is identical to the Irenic situation. A fodder-tier Warrior who serves Zeus is stated to have a move that grants him the speed of light, named Hyperion Dash. Now, let's go-on about how it is so similar to Irenic:
- Both feats come from a in-game lore description of the character
- Both feats are performed by fodders that would scale to 99% of the verse
- Both feats are performed by someone that is from the lowest hierarchy of "strong"
- And, mainly, both feats would be ridiculously above the God-Tiers.
The only difference in the whole situation boils down to the fact that the speed of light feat is not accepted for God of War, just like it shouldn't be. Because said feat openly contradicts the established speed of the God-Tiers, and would wank the rest of the verse horribly. In fact, it would scale to the FIRST boss of the franchise if accepted.
See the similarities? I certainly do.
Overall, keeping Irenic and literally the entire verse at MFTL+ openly contradicts how we do things here, both our regulations regarding outliers and other franchises, and it should NOT stay in the profiles. No matter how weakened Jubileus was (not actually enough to be this slow), she isn't somehow faster than Irenic while only having a single FTL feat.
Let's list franchises that would openly need to be scaled to absurdly wanked tiers if we're going to let Irenic get out with this outlier:
- Dante, Mundus, Sparda, Abigail and Argosax should all be scaled to "possibly 4-A", because the possible 4-A dimensional feat isn't actually "openly contradicted" by another feat, it is just ridiculously and utterly above all the other feats
- Mr. Boo should be upgraded to 3-A via his Skinny Form, since it's not really contradicted by anything & Gotenks is still scaled from his gag feats.
- Ares from God of War should be upgraded to At least 3-C due to him creating a dimension that contained an entire galaxy inside. This would scale to all the God-Tiers.
- Kirby should be upgraded to 3-B via scaling from Magolor, since it isn't openly contradicted by another feat, it is just far higher than his 4-A feats
- Sanguinius, Roboute Guillima, all the other Primarchs, Khar and similar opponents should be upgraded to "At least 4-A" via the outlier feat that was discovered recently. The high-end would upgrade the Chaos Gods to 3-B.
- Similarly, the other God-Tiers of God of War should be upgraded to Low 2-C and Immeasurable via Cronos supposedly existing before space and time and him defeating his father, Uranus, who created the universe of the series.
Final Considerations
Now that I stated the reasons why I (and many others) believe Irenic should be downgraded, I suggest that the low and mid-tiers receive MHS+ scaling, due to some of 'em having true lightning-related abilities.
Similarly, Jubileus, Bayo, Queen Sheba and the others should be downgraded to FTL+ via Jubileus's own feat, which is 350c.
That's roughly it.
Agree: Matthew Schroeder, Js250476, Unite My Rice, Executor N0, Monarch Laciel, Gargoyle One
Disagree: WeeklyBattles
Uncertai: SomebodyData
