Hatou Manabu

Alright, so my page for Hatou Manabu was deleted for "extremely exaggerated statistics." To be fair, she is absurdly powerful, so I probably should have created some form of discussion thread. I have a few pages that I can cite from the manga, but I'd like to see the main arguments against her first so I know what to post.

Original article, moved to my user blog: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Betaredex/Hatou_Manabu

Existing outside of and throughout space-time doesn't make you outerversal, you need proof that the character is beyond all dimensions regardless of size whether 6th dimensional or infinite dimensional, that is irrelevant to a true outversal character.

Ah, alright. I've had a hard time understanding the tiering system fully, thanks for the clarification.

So would that make her Low Hyperversal, potentially High Hyperversal?

From what i can see she can just perceive every point in space-time, in an infinite number of alternate realities, this is omnipresence, but i don't see it having anything to do with her ap, unless she can freely manipulate all those realities to her will or something like that, like having full control over all of it, in which cause this would be a 2-A feat, making her multiversal+.

The manga ends with her collapsing the superposition into a single desired universe, eliminating all the other "possible" universes. What would that be classified as?

Looked up this manga and it's only 18 chapters, gonna read this so i can accurately determine how powerful she is.

If she eliminated all possible universe, of which there are infinite, into a single one, sounds like multiversal+ to me.

But yea hold off on making the profile, i will look into it.

@Celestial Pegasus

Thank you for helping out.

By the way, the most important chapters to pay attention to are 16 and 17.

So finished the series, and was very good, this series goes into some deep quantum physics.

Gonna try to make sense of this, basically according to schrodinger's cat example in which a cat is in a box and there is a button which will release poison gas. There are an infinite number of possibilities that the cat is dead, and an equal number that it is alive, so the cat is both dead and alive, the state of the cat is indeterminate, it is when we open the box that the cat is either dead or alive, before that it's unknown, so basically observation limits all the probabilities of whether the cat is dead or alive to a single one.

Reality is determined by what the majority thinks, the universe created humans so that humans could observe it, and through that the laws of the universe were made, 1+1=2 didn't exist when the universe was created, it exists because it suits the mindset of a human observer, so the universe made it so. The present is just the result of observations made in the future, that wound up changing the past.

So 1+1=2 didn't exist, humans thought it to be so, the universe made it so. I think therefore i am, very philosophical stuff here.

So Hatou discovered the theory of everything which is that the universe itself is like the cat in the box, that has hasn't been determined, as no one has observed it, as before with the cat from inside the box there are an equal number of infinite possibilities that the universe exist and doesn't exist, and been observed those possibilities are reduced to one.

Having discovered the theory of everything, just like how 1+1=2 is a thought humans had in the future, and the universe made it into a law in the past, Hatou thinks what the past should be, hence the universe becomes limited to a single possibility, but that's not the end of it as Hatou isn't the only observer, as long as she could be observered, her fate or reality or whatever could be dertermined, so she went back billions of years and re-evolved into something which doesn't fit the theory of everything, she became a non-existent being.

So conclusion honestly this is extremely complicated, all based around the idea of i think therefore i am, because you can observe something, you limit it's possibilities to a single one, Hatou's friend was basically fated to die as other people could observe Hatou so she became a no-existent being who no one could observe, at least that's what she thought, her friend could observe her, because her friend could observe her, cause her friend can observe things no one else can, as she sees people as robots, Hatou could basically become any other person because they all see the same things, recognize each other as humans, Hatou's friends doesn't, two difference perspective hence she couldn't become her.

Anyway does this make Hatou multiversal+, nope just some really complicated quantum physics going on here, she basically only became a non-existence being so no one's observation could affect her, and hence determine what she is, therby making her fate itself determined.

Before that she could also switch between infinite versions of herself, even if she died, she would just switch to another version of herself, and basically any abilities the other versions of herself had she can get as well, like their memories, knowledge, physical abilities and even stuff like magic which a version of herself in the infinite possibilities have.

Glad you enjoyed it! So, what's the verdict? I was thinking that collapsing the superposition destroyed an infinite number of 11-dimensional contructs, making her Hyperversal? Not certain though.

This is some quantum physics stuff, it's not that she is multiversal, but like the laws of reality itself fall in on itself when someone can determine what the universe is, just like how with the cat example, there is an infinite number of possibilities that the cat is dead, and alive, but it's reduced to a single one when you observe it as it becomes determined whether the cat is dead or alive.

There are an infinite number of universes but Hatou basically went outside of them and oberved them from outside or something like that or maybe it's just the knolwedge that the universe itself is like the cat in a box and in that box, and that there is another box above that and another and another, she basically went outside of all that as as long as she is in the box, her fate could be determined, so she went beyond all the boxes and became a nonexistent being...

Honestly getting a headache thinking about this, we need someone more familiar with quantum physics here, cause this could very make make her some sort of abstract being beyond the multiverse or something or just simply a non-existent being who realized that the universe is like the cat in the box hence the laws of the multiverse itself reduced the multiverse to just one. Not sure which.

By your explanation, I am also uncertain what tier she should be placed in, so perhaps it is best to avoid creating the profile.

Probably just need someone with more knowledge on quantum mechanics than me to hopefully understand this, only need chapter 16 and 17 of MURASAKIIRO NO QUALIA looked at to determine how to rate the character.

If no one comes to help then yea better to not create the profile.

Okay.

Alright, thanks for the help everyone. One more question mostly for anyone else interested: what about the idea that the "cat in a box" is inside another box, which is inside another box, etc? I remember Manabu musing about that and deciding not to pursue it. I think I'll review Chapter 16 for now.

Alright, I did some research and now I feel as if I have a pretty solid understanding of Manabu's abilities. The most important thing to understand here is how Yukari's qualia fundamentally exists outside of Manabu's understanding of the universe (Source ). Because Manabu accepted the superposition of both her and Yukari's perceptions, she gained perception of the entirety of her 11-dimensional multiverse (Source ). In Manabu's multiverse, her left arm is just a left arm, but Manabu's understanding of its existence as a cell phone elevates her perception past its normal scope. Now, when Manabu discovers the Theory of Everything, she describes it as a parallel to the Schrödinger's Cat problem, i.e. it is a superposition of possible states. However, this superposition applies not to the cat being alive or dead, but instead all possible universes, which Manabu can fully comprehend as an 11-dimensional existence (Source ). Manabu's existence in 11-d space is further implied with the quote: "[The Theory of Everything] indicated that there is a 'limit' to human observation. In understanding this, 'I' was able to overcome that 'limit'." (Source ). In M-theory, the "limit of human observation" corresponds to the 7 Planck dimensions, which Manabu now can perceive. Despite this understanding of all possible realities, Manabu can't be sure that she isn't being observed herself (Source ). Since Yukari's qualia exists outside of the understanding of any existence besides herself, Yukari can observe Manabu (Source ). As for attack potency and other stats, Manabu can simply collapse the superposition, reducing the 11-dimensional contruct into just 4 dimensions. For this reason, I would classify her as High 1-C.

Turns out string theory is also called the theory of everything, and manabu discovered that and overcame the limit of human observation becoming a being who has no body, fluid, particle, doesn't even exist as a probability.

And from what was said before about her being able to be observed as long as she is in the box owned by someone else, their observation will end up changing her determined reality, when she discovered the theory of everything, no one could observed her meaning she went beyond all those boxes, seems like transcends M-12 theory to me, and is actually at least a 12-D being.

At the very least she is 11-D for being outside the infinite possibilities that is the multiverse, as she doesn't even exist as a possibility and is beyond human observation.

This is what i am thinking, may be wrong.

Well, in that case, should we just put "possibly higher" on the profile?

No, i still not comfortable with this yet, we still need someone with knowledge on string theory here to confirm whether this is accurate or not.

At best a High 1-C rating can work maybe, not sure about anything else, as I honestly feel this is out of my capacity to evaluate as i don't have in depth knowledge of string theory and quantum physics.

You can ask DontTalkDT for help if you wish.

Not sure who that is, should I just PM them a link to this thread?

He is the person most knowledgeable about math and science in this wiki, and used to be an admin and calc group member.

I was talking to Celestial Pegasus, but never mind. I can ask DontTalkDT for input.

Ok, leaving a link to the important chapter so DontTalk can see it when he comes, the relevant stuff is from chapter 16 pg 9 to chapter 17

Okay.

Difficult question even more difficult if you only know two chapters of the manga. Let me say that I don't really know anything about quantum physics either.

First let's start with why it is assumed to be string theory and 11 dimensions.

From what I have seen all of this are interpretations of quantum theory on a more general level than string theory. If we take into account the imaginary time (Though I am really not sure what the imaginary time bit was about) from what I see 3+2 dimensions are sufficient for the world. You can count another one on that if you insist that quantum multiverses exists in an extra dimension (albeit from the explanation in the manga it seems more like they treat them to exists in a wave function).

On the nature of her existence I would say that she isn't an abstract entity, but a non-corporeal entity, which doesn't interact with the fundamental forces and can only influence the universe by collapsing its wave function through observing. I don't think she is 12-D or anything, given that she isn't outside in sense of position, but in sense of interaction/observation.


As I understand it the idea is: Anyone observing something can collapse its wave function to just one possible outcome. However there is also a wave function that describes the possibility of what happens to that person and by that what that person observes.

While that wave function hasn't collapsed all possible versions of that human exist and due to that all observations that human could do are done (meaning also all possible ways that human could collapse a wave function are done).

That means the actual decision on how the humans observation collapses the wave function is done by how the observer of the human collapses its wave function. And for that observer the same applies. And so on.

Because there is no first observer, whichs wave function can not be collapsed to a certain outcome, in the end all possible universes exist.

What she does is to become the first observer. Hence she has to be unobservable, because otherwise the observation of another human could affect her wave function.

Or something like that~

I think this more or less goes into the direction of what was already written.

Now what does that mean in practice.

In essence her offensive power is the ability to decide how any wave function collapses.

That means that she has high rank probability manipulation, as she is more or less actively deciding any outcome that is random.

That said, what does that mean for her AP?

That depends on when it is asked.

I would for now say that we only know that she decides for the universe.

At the beginning of the universe she could likely do great changes for the long run, but at a present point it depends on how greatly this fiction thinks the possibilities are. She can choose only possible possibilities in the end.

Let me say in the end I think her power is 3-D (or possibly whatever spacial dimensions there are otherwise). While she indicates here and in the next panel that the past changes as well, I believe that is only the case, because at that point the universe was completly undetermined and now that the present state was set what the past states were is set as well, since the past state has to be the one leading to that present state.


Betaredex suggests Omnipresence and Nigh-Omniscience in the profile, but I don't see a clear indicator for those (she can take the POV of most people by acting as if she were them, but I am not sure if she can take all at once or just one at a time).


If I were to write a profile for her it would be something like:

Powers and Abilities: Non-Corporeal (Can not be observed in any normal way and does not interact with things following physics), Immunity to Probability Manipulation (Exists as something that is not part of a wave function), Probability Manipulation (Can decide all randomness in the universe through observation), Time Travel (Went back in time by hundreds of ten hundred million years), Acausality, Enhanced Senses (can observe the entire universe), Non-existence

Attack Potency: Varies. (Can bring about any change that is possible with a certain probability, but can not directly interact with the universe through her own power. She can bring great changes to the universe by manipulating the random possibilities throughout history through time travel, but is at any present time limited to what is possible to happen even without her influence. By collapsing the wave function of the universe "what if" universes, like the many world interpretation of quantum physics predicts them, would cease to exist, except the one universe she chooses)

Speed: Unknown

Durability: Unknown (Non-corporeality and non-observability make her difficult to hurt)


Maybe one additional word why I don't consider eliminating the other what if universes as multiversal feat: Imagine there is a coin toss and the result produces 2 timelines according to the many world interpretation. And then there is a time traveler that goes to the past and makes it so that the coin toss never happened. In that case as a result of the time traveler the two timeline resulting from the coin toss are deleted, but the time traveler isn't really Multi-Universal, that just is a consequence of causality.

For her it is similar: She deletes timelines as a result of making things certain, but she isn't really destroying them through her power, but just as a result of an action that needs no large power (observing). The difference is clear if one considers the case that only one timeline is left (everything is deterministic). She couldn't destroy that timeline in the same way she destroys one of the many worlds she doesn't choose when making things certain. One possibility always remains there is nothing she can do to harm the remaining one.

In a non many world interpretation verse her power would actually not even influence multiple universes (and from what I have seen the manga switches between many world interpretation and copenhagen interpretation without clearly saying what is the case).

Ah, so basically along the lines of what i initially thought at first, makes sense.

As whether she can take the pov of multiple people, she can indeed become multiple people at once, but when she does that she can only see the memories of the people from the outside and not personally like when she does it one by one.

She doesn't know the thoughts or motivations of them.

So she can become many people, though her conciousness can not really process all of the information. So something like Bilocatio , by being at the perspective of many people or can she also be at many places without using other humans?

She has only been shown to use the perspective of humans.

I assumed the multiverse of Qualia to be an 11-dimensional system mostly because of how in depth they go with the quantum theory in earlier chapters, as well as the setting being basically identical to modern day Japan aside from Yukari's abnormality. Secondly, I defined her as Nigh-Omniscient and Omnipresent because all of her abilities are based on observing different points in the multiverse, and possessing a shared consciousness between them. Her "time travel" isn't actually "time travel"; it's observing the multiverse via a perspective in that time.

>She has only been shown to use the perspective of humans.

This actually is untrue, after she learned the theory of everything. For example, she observed Yukari in the hospital room, and it was explicitly stated that she cannot take Yukari's perspective. I think the reason she couldn't take the perspective of something that wasn't human prior to learning the theory of everything was because, in the same way that Yukari does, a non-human perspective would have fundamentally different qualia. However, the theory of everything grants her understanding of these concepts (but not Yukari's, since her qualia is defined to be completely impossible to comprehend.) This was further implied when Manabu described the theory of everything something that "indicated that there is a 'limit' to human observation," and that "In understanding this, [Manabu] was able to overcome that 'limit'."

Honestly, I feel that the earlier chapters are pretty important for proper context.

Not sure if it helps, but gonna post these here.

The many parallel worlds interpretations and copenhagen interpretation were explained here from page 20 to like page 32.

Another important thing i think is here where it explains that past and present don't exist, what exists is an infinite amount of presents divided into intervals of planck time.

@Celestial Pegasus

So have you received sufficient information to write the profile?

DontTalk already laid out what he thinks the profile should look like, and i agree with it, as it agrees what i was saying before about manabu being able to destroy the infinite parallel worlds/possibilities due to being able to observe them, and it's just a matter of reality itself causing the other worlds to be reduced to one as they become determine as they have been observed.

I was just waiting to see DontTalk's reply to see if he has anything else to add.

Not quite sure about Manabu's intelligence, she can observe multiple people in different parallel worlds but not sure if it makes her omniscient. Seems like just biolocation as Donttalk was talking about before.

Okay. Thank you. Would you be willing to write the profile?

While I agree with her AP not being 11-D, I think there hasn't been sufficient evidence that:

1. The multiverse she observes doesn't follow string theory

2. She can only view the multiverse through a human perspective (Her actual ability is to view any point in the multiverse from any perspective except Yukari's, which is pretty much the definition of Omnipresence and Nigh-Omniscience)

As for the initial confusion with Celestial Pegasus as to whether she would be 11-D or 12-D, I think I can safely say that she is 11-D given what I have read about string theory.

@Ant Yes i will write the profile.

@Betredex Nothing was said to prove she is 11-D, dimensions were never mentioned in the series, we need proof here not assumptions.

My point is that the explanations of subatomic particles, quantum superposition, etc. that were explained in the series correspond to our world. Unless a 5-D system is a possible theory in our multiverse, it shouldn't be possible there given that quantum physics works in an identical way.

Okay. Thanks. I will leave this discussion in your hands then.