Zeno and Super Shenron upgrades.

[StekFence]

well we could fix that by just saying either super shenron being above zeno, or zeno scaling to 2-B

Zeno can’t be above Super shenron at the same time as Shenron having no limits. And Super Shenron can’t be above zeno because Zeno is stated to be the unbeatable god tier.

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

Even zeno is stated that if he wanted to, he could destroy the entire world, not even this world.

"The" world can still be used to refer the world they're in (as in, the 12 universe cosmos), phrases like that are really completely contextual and perspective based. I think it's kind of a stretch to take that as saying he can effect countless other timelines without any other elaboration to imply that in story and the feats involving the "world" up to now being the 12 universes.

 

[Xxiaa]

Disagree, Lephyr is making the most sense to me.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The entire thing assumes that Shenron has literally infinite power when that was clearly hyperbolic, and Zeno being able to destroy multiple timelines is contradicted from the fact that he exist in each of them and is the overlord of just his timeline, and not the others as there are other Zenos to rule over those.

Hard disagree for obvious reasons.

 

[TiltedFN]

"The" world can still be used to refer the world they're in (as in, the 12 universe cosmos), phrases like that are really completely contextual and perspective based. I think it's kind of a stretch to take that as saying he can effect countless other timelines without any other elaboration to imply that in story and the feats involving the "world" up to now being the 12 universes.

I mean im pretty sure future zeno said "this" world, as in the entire timeline, with his power even reaching other timelines.

 

[TiltedFN]

I feel at the very least, super shenron should be 54U 2-C for the zenos saying he could do anything, i think that holds merit for SS being able to restore that many amounts of universes.

 

[TiltedFN]

How is it hyperbolic, and how does existing in multiple timelines contradict anything?

The entire thing assumes that Shenron has literally infinite power when that was clearly hyperbolic, and Zeno being able to destroy multiple timelines is contradicted from the fact that he exist in each of them and is the overlord of just his timeline, and not the others as there are other Zenos to rule over those.

Hard disagree for obvious reasons

 

[Quantu]

Well, I completely disagree with Tier 1, that's a big no. Same for 2-A.

I'm personally not comfortable with taking "no limit/it can do anything" statements and using them for the highest possible interpretation, when there are absolutely 0 feats even remotely close. The fact that the statements for Zeno/Super Shenron contradict each other doesn't help either.

Put me down as disagree.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Because the dragon has no 2-B feats. Simple as that.

The property of granting any wish does not inherently means he could restore 2-B amounts of universes, specially when they only talk about constantly of the collective 12 to 18 (which already paints a clear picture of the kinds of scale those "any wishes" would entail).

Based on a statement that doesn't properly elaborate you want to then go to the highest interpretation, and that simply doesn't fly with me.

This too. That's another jump.

You either accept the dragon is beyond Zeno, which means there's nothing to scale. Or you accept Zeno is superior, and being someone that also does not have any 2-B feat, there's nothing at all.

Simply doesn't work.

Well, he doesn't necessarily need to have done it to climb with something, this is easily circumvented by manipulating reality, he can fulfill any wish without exception, there is no limit to what he cannot, the work makes it very clear that, if Zen' ō wishing he would destroy all cosmology that will happen anyway, he has the means to do that and has shown a certain ease in restoring all Universes and including all structures the way they are, you can't disagree just because he didn't show it, but he can and is a possibility here, unless you have a good argument why he can't I suggest taking a closer look at this, I see Super Sheron being 2-B easily, I don't see mistakes in that, there's less that has evidence to disagree with this, if not then I think I should stay neutral until another employee agrees to this.

About Zen'ō he does not scale with Super Sheron, but with Zen'ō himself, where he has two quotes of erasing everything, not only planets, Universes, Galaxies, and even referring to worlds in Zen'ō's quote (which he's shown erasing in the future arc) he's been shown to easily erase a timeline, I don't see why Zen'ō is limited to just 2-C, he scales with the entire multiverse it's quoted that he's supreme god of the entire multiverse, no there is no one above him according to work and we see that, he easily erased a 4D structure with greater ease. Today I want to see all the evidence for DB characters not to scale with all cosmology, not least because the arguments are weak here.

"Ah, but we don't see Zen'ō erasing all cosmology"

Is it really necessary to have shown? Several times we've seen characters scale with their cosmology without having a single Universal or Multiversal feat.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The entire thing assumes that Shenron has literally infinite power when that was clearly hyperbolic, and Zeno being able to destroy multiple timelines is contradicted from the fact that he exist in each of them and is the overlord of just his timeline, and not the others as there are other Zenos to rule over those.

Hard disagree for obvious reasons.

Hyperbole is not an argument, see? What has other Zen'ō existing in other timelines? How does this disprove him being 2-B?

 

[SSJGeminiJJ]

I mean im pretty sure future zeno said "this" world, as in the entire timeline, with his power even reaching other timelines.

IIRC the exact phrase was "a world like this (as in, one taken over by Zamasu, 2-C IZ)", but regardless, since the 12 universe were introduced they often use "the world" to refer to what's clearly the 12 universes. It's completely a matter of perspective what this/the world means and there isn't really any insight given by Whis to say he meant the 2-B timelines as opposed to how they use world for the rest of the story (12 universes).

 

[StrymULTRA]

How is it hyperbolic, and how does existing in multiple timelines contradict anything?

Infinite/Boundless power is always hyperbolic without feats to support it. This ain't Undertale, Maou Gaukin or Kirby where the infinite power stuff is supported from the ACTUAL feats on the cosmiology, this is extrapolating it to the highest possible interpretation.

Zeno never affected multiple timelines, and he's implied heavily that he's in charge of only the 12 universes, not all the multiverse, otherwise Angels would be worried of the Zenos of other timelines too.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well, he doesn't necessarily need to have done it to climb with something, this is easily circumvented by manipulating reality, he can fulfill any wish without exception, there is no limit to what he cannot, the work makes it very clear that, if Zen' ō wishing he would destroy all cosmology that will happen anyway, he has the means to do that and has shown a certain ease in restoring all Universes and including all structures the way they are, you can't disagree just because he didn't show it, but he can and is a possibility here, unless you have a good argument why he can't I suggest taking a closer look at this, I see Super Sheron being 2-B easily, I don't see mistakes in that, there's less that has evidence to disagree with this, if not then I think I should stay neutral until another employee agrees to this.

About Zen'ō he does not scale with Super Sheron, but with Zen'ō himself, where he has two quotes of erasing everything, not only planets, Universes, Galaxies, and even referring to worlds in Zen'ō's quote (which he's shown erasing in the future arc) he's been shown to easily erase a timeline, I don't see why Zen'ō is limited to just 2-C, he scales with the entire multiverse it's quoted that he's supreme god of the entire multiverse, no there is no one above him according to work and we see that, he easily erased a 4D structure with greater ease. Today I want to see all the evidence for DB characters not to scale with all cosmology, not least because the arguments are weak here.

"Ah, but we don't see Zen'ō erasing all cosmology"

Is it really necessary to have shown? Several times we've seen characters scale with their cosmology without having a single Universal or Multiversal feat.

Extrapolations on top of extrapolations.

Zen'ō may be king of everything, but that "everything" is only shown to be the collective 12 to 18 universes. That's the only thing elaborated, that's the only thing we've seen him erase (and reasonable to conclude he can affect the totality, specially thanks to the Goku Black saga). Everything else are logical leaps strictly unsupported.

I will not go back and forth from here. Given my stance and will wait for more staff opinions, but will be moderating the thread.

 

[LordTracer]

Hard disagree for the same reasons as Lephyr.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Infinite/Boundless power is always hyperbolic without feats to support it. This ain't Undertale, Maou Gaukin or Kirby where the infinite power stuff is supported from the ACTUAL feats on the cosmiology, this is extrapolating it to the highest possible interpretation.

Zeno never affected multiple timelines, and he's implied heavily that he's in charge of only the 12 universes, not all the multiverse, otherwise Angels would be worried of the Zenos of other timelines too.

Why are you using verses from third parties? Don't bring anything but DB on here, it's derailing with OP, you can't disprove something that's mentioned multiple times and without any contradictions.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Myguy

This is an official warning now to not post unnecessary bs. Go to the discussion thread to meme around.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Why are you using verses from third parties? Don't bring anything but DB on here, it's derailing with OP, you can't disprove something that's mentioned multiple times and without any contradictions.

I can. They showcased to scale to the cosmology. Zeno not, only an hyperbolic statement.

 

[Quantu]

Why are you using verses from third parties? Don't bring anything but DB on here, it's derailing with OP, you can't disprove something that's mentioned multiple times and without any contradictions.

You can't use contextual "no limit/can do anything" statements as primary evidence to upgrade characters to a level beyond anything feat wise in the verse.

 

[StekFence]

no there is no one above him according to work and we see that, he easily erased a 4D structure with greater ease.

If no one is above him, then Zeno is > Super Shenron, and thus super Shenron has limits. If super Shenron has limits, how could you possibly scale him off a statement of no limits? This is a big contradiction. It would imply that Super Shenrons statement is a hyperbole, because it’s not true.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I can. They showcased to scale to the cosmology. Zeno not, only an hyperbolic statement.

Could you prove that it is a hyperbole? I only see quoting other verses to help you with something, if it were really hyperbole it wouldn't be being repeated a lot of times and supporting it in guides.

 

[StekFence]

It’s a hyperbole because Zeno is above him, meaning he has a limit, meaning statements that he has no limits are either misinformed or not literal

 

[Myguy]

Ye sure

But before i go, just wanna say i changed my mind

Fat chance that the no limits statements is a hyperbole

 

[StrymULTRA]

Could you prove that it is a hyperbole? I only see quoting other verses to help you with something, if it were really hyperbole it wouldn't be being repeated a lot of times and supporting it in guides.

It's hyperbole if nothing supports it. Zeno never showcased to affect other timelines, so he can't.

Can you understand this now in the good way or should I do the same as I did with the AE Zamasu downgrade?

 

[TiltedFN]

@LephyrTheRevanchist you can just close this, I already see where this is going to go.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@LephyrTheRevanchist you can just close this, I already see where this is going to go.

Closing per OPs request

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know this thread was already closed, but I am quite skeptical about this. We don't really assume they can extend to all those time rings and what not.