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Zeno and Super Shenron upgrades.

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TiltedFN

TiltedFN

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As you know, super shenron is rated 2-C for being able to restore all the universes that zeno erased in the tournament of power. And after looking further into super shenron statements, I think he should scale much higher than that. First off, we know that in the manga and the anime that super shenron is stated to have no limit on his power. And since we know that super shenron is capable of being able to wish back multiple 4d constructs that were erased out of existence, this should logically give super shenron Infinite 4d wish potential. Shenron at the very least should be able to create/destroy the entire cosmology which is accepted as 2-B at the moment. And should logically be able to create an Infinite amount of parallel timelines/universal spacetime continuums. I'm proposing 2-B, Likely 2-A (Being stated to be able to grant any wish, super shenron should hypothetically be capable of creating/destroying the entire cosmology or being able to create/destroy an infinite amount of parallel timelines/Universal spacetime continuums). At worst, if you guys really don't agree with it, a Possibly rating would also suffice.

Onto Zeno, now zeno is a little tricky here, we know he has statements of being the the most powerful and unbeatable no matter what, and this is after super shenron has already been revealed to us, and since i want zeno to scale, we run into some problems, if zeno is stronger than super shenron, this would logically mean a wish from super shenron to kill zeno would NOT kill him, making us question this limitless power from super shenron. We have some options here, option 1: Zeno gets no rating and stays the same, we would have to keep zeno the same and just say super shenron is more powerful than zeno for this to work, or option 2: Zeno gets a resistance to reality manipulation, wished from an omnipotent dragon not being able to affect him. This could also be a very likely interpretation is that wished just don't affect zeno, but this could still present some problems, like what if somebody wanted to wish zeno's reality manip resistance off of him? Would that work? Well, im not sure, because technically SS should have reality manip resistance negation being limitless and all, so that brings us off to the next choice, Option 3: Zeno's power is inaccessible to anybody else in the verse, what am i suggesting? Low 1-C, now before you all erupt into a burst of flames and lose your minds, hear me out.

This tier would make sense for zeno considering even a dragon with infinite 4d wish potential is still seen as below the mightiest in the multiverse, this would mean that zeno is Infinitely more powerful than super shenron. It wont let me come off of bold SMH. Anyways, super shenron paling in comparison to zeno should imply some sort of dimensional Gap in zenos AP right or some type of infinite distance? Since from my understanding (correct me if im wrong) being infinitely more powerful than a multi+ being would be low 1-C right?
Note 1:

Due to the fact that the distance between any given number of universes embedded in higher-dimensional / higher-order spaces is currently unknowable, it is impossible to quantify the numerical gap between each one of the subtiers in Tier 2. As such, it is not allowed to upgrade such a character based solely on multipliers. For example, someone twice as strong as a Low 2-C character would still be Low 2-C, and someone infinitely more powerful than a 2-C would not be 2-A. That is straight from the tiering system, and it does not say anything about 2-A and low 1-C differences, so forgive me if im not using these terms correctly. So my proposal would be Zeno, Low 1-C (being infinitely stronger than super shenron who logically can create/destroy an uncountably infinite amount of spacetime continuums/parallel timelines or universes) That is my proposal. But if you guys don't like that (which you probably won't) Then zeno would not scale from super shenron and would stay the same, i feel like zeno should still scale to the 2-B multiverse because we know he is powerful enough to reach into other timelines, stated to be able to destroy the world and all of existence if he wanted, so i can see a, zeno, possibly 2-B rating out of this, since he is aware of MW being the cosmology of dragon ball. Thank you for reading.

Agree: CryptoTheMayo (2-B), georredannea15

​




Neutral: Achintiya31, Omegabronic



Disagree: LyphyrTheRevanchist, StekFence










. . . .
 
Last edited:
Well for the third proposal, being infinitely above 2-A is still 2-A. It’s not even considered one more universe into 2-A. I also disagree with the notion of scaling SupaShenron via no limits, and then scaling Zeno via a limit on supashenron
 
I think Supa Shenron being 2-B as a possibly would be ok, since saying he has no limits is kinda vague, but I see where you are coming from
 
CryoTheMayo said:
I would agree with 2-B Zeno and Super Shenron by assuming any statements refer to the limits of the entire cosmology, which was 2-B last I heard. 2-A Wish Power for Super Shenron I'm neutral on.
Click to expand...
Fair, but wouldn't 2-A make more sense? If we scale on the limit to cosmology, then we could potentially make zeno and super shenron 2-B with no contradictions.
 
StekFence said:
Well for the third proposal, being infinitely above 2-A is still 2-A. It’s not even considered one more universe into 2-A. I also disagree with the notion of scaling SupaShenron via no limits, and then scaling Zeno via a limit on supashenron
Click to expand...
So you can be infinitely more powerful than someone in 2-A? If that is the case then cant zeno be stronger than super shenron without there being contradictions?
 
Neutral, but just to point out that this "1: Zeno gets no rating and stays the same, we would have to keep zeno the same and just say super shenron is more powerful than zeno for this to work" would be the only option that would make sense, since zeno having super resistance to wish shenron stuff would also contradict him having not limits

As i said tho, neutral i am
 
I disagree with Resistance to Reality Manipulation. Not only changes in present causes existence of parallel Zeno, it was probably frieza's motive to win and wish for sdb and become the supreme ruler.
rest of the stuff i am neutral
 
Aachintya31 said:
I disagree with Resistance to Reality Manipulation. Not only changes in present causes existence of parallel Zeno, it was probably frieza's motive to win and wish for sdb and become the supreme ruler.
rest of the stuff i am neutral
Click to expand...
Fair enough on the reality manip, but i as implying a resistance to wish granting, like not being able to kill him if somebody wished for it, or wished for greater power than him, but i see where you are coming from.
 
omegabronic said:
Neutral, but just to point out that this "1: Zeno gets no rating and stays the same, we would have to keep zeno the same and just say super shenron is more powerful than zeno for this to work" would be the only option that would make sense, since zeno having super resistance to wish shenron stuff would also contradict him having not limits

As i said tho, neutral i am
Click to expand...
Well that is an option, thats why i pointed at that zeno could be infinity stronger than shenron, hence why zeno is just seen as this God who absolutely nobody is above in raw power. But this could also mean just with his existence erasure, but shenron has reality manip via wish granting, they arent really one in the same, so that could add more merit that if we scale shenron to the cosmology, zeno would also be able to destroy the cosmology via EE, with SS being able to recreate/destroy it also.
 
I agreed with 2-B but I have no idea where 2-A comes from. I disagree that it should destroy infinite timelines. ( Btw being infinitely stronger than 2-A would still be 2-A.)
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Isn't this a no limits fallacy? scratches head
Click to expand...
I mean not really? I feel like scaling super shenron to the cosmology is not bad, this isn't really nlf, I'm proposing 1-A SS or anything lmao. Its stated many times he has no limit, so a possibly or likely 2-B rating, maybe even 2-A is justified, more towards 2-B tho. And the gods are aware of parallel timelines
 
TiltedFN said:
As you know, super shenron is rated 2-C for being able to restore all the universes that zeno erased in the tournament of power. And after looking further into super shenron statements, I think he should scale much higher than that. First off, we know that in the manga and the anime that super shenron is stated to have no limit on his power. And since we know that super shenron is capable of being able to wish back multiple 4d constructs that were erased out of existence, this should logically give super shenron Infinite 4d wish potential. Shenron at the very least should be able to create/destroy the entire cosmology which is accepted as 2-B at the moment. And should logically be able to create an Infinite amount of parallel timelines/universal spacetime continuums. I'm proposing 2-B, Likely 2-A (Being stated to be able to grant any wish, super shenron should hypothetically be capable of creating/destroying the entire cosmology or being able to create/destroy an infinite amount of parallel timelines/Universal spacetime continuums). At worst, if you guys really don't agree with it, a Possibly rating would also suffice.

Onto Zeno, now zeno is a little tricky here, we know he has statements of being the the most powerful and unbeatable no matter what, and this is after super shenron has already been revealed to us, and since i want zeno to scale, we run into some problems, if zeno is stronger than super shenron, this would logically mean a wish from super shenron to kill zeno would NOT kill him, making us question this limitless power from super shenron. We have some options here, option 1: Zeno gets no rating and stays the same, we would have to keep zeno the same and just say super shenron is more powerful than zeno for this to work, or option 2: Zeno gets a resistance to reality manipulation, wished from an omnipotent dragon not being able to affect him. This could also be a very likely interpretation is that wished just don't affect zeno, but this could still present some problems, like what if somebody wanted to wish zeno's reality manip resistance off of him? Would that work? Well, im not sure, because technically SS should have reality manip resistance negation being limitless and all, so that brings us off to the next choice, Option 3: Zeno's power is inaccessible to anybody else in the verse, what am i suggesting? Low 1-C, now before you all erupt into a burst of flames and lose your minds, hear me out.

This tier would make sense for zeno considering even a dragon with infinite 4d wish potential is still seen as below the mightiest in the multiverse, this would mean that zeno is Infinitely more powerful than super shenron. It wont let me come off of bold SMH. Anyways, super shenron paling in comparison to zeno should imply some sort of dimensional Gap in zenos AP right or some type of infinite distance? Since from my understanding (correct me if im wrong) being infinitely more powerful than a multi+ being would be low 1-C right?
Note 1:

Due to the fact that the distance between any given number of universes embedded in higher-dimensional / higher-order spaces is currently unknowable, it is impossible to quantify the numerical gap between each one of the subtiers in Tier 2. As such, it is not allowed to upgrade such a character based solely on multipliers. For example, someone twice as strong as a Low 2-C character would still be Low 2-C, and someone infinitely more powerful than a 2-C would not be 2-A. That is straight from the tiering system, and it does not say anything about 2-A and low 1-C differences, so forgive me if im not using these terms correctly. So my proposal would be Zeno, Low 1-C (being infinitely stronger than super shenron who logically can create/destroy an uncountably infinite amount of spacetime continuums/parallel timelines or universes) That is my proposal. But if you guys don't like that (which you probably won't) Then zeno would not scale from super shenron and would stay the same, i feel like zeno should still scale to the 2-B multiverse because we know he is powerful enough to reach into other timelines, stated to be able to destroy the world and all of existence if he wanted, so i can see a, zeno, possibly 2-B rating out of this, since he is aware of MW being the cosmology of dragon ball. Thank you for reading.

Agree:



Neutral:



Disagree:






. . . .
Click to expand...

Dude, paste the tags
 
TiltedFN said:
why do you think 2-B is a logical jump
Click to expand...
Because the dragon has no 2-B feats. Simple as that.

The property of granting any wish does not inherently means he could restore 2-B amounts of universes, specially when they only talk about constantly of the collective 12 to 18 (which already paints a clear picture of the kinds of scale those "any wishes" would entail).

Based on a statement that doesn't properly elaborate you want to then go to the highest interpretation, and that simply doesn't fly with me.
 
Actually, I change my mind on Supa Shenron being possibly 2-B, the whole thing hinges on the premise of him having no limits, when he has a limit in relation to zeno.
 
StekFence said:
Actually, I change my mind on Supa Shenron being possibly 2-B, the whole thing hinges on the premise of him having no limits, when he has a limit in relation to zeno.
Click to expand...
well we could fix that by just saying either super shenron being above zeno, or zeno scaling to 2-B
 
StekFence said:
Actually, I change my mind on Supa Shenron being possibly 2-B, the whole thing hinges on the premise of him having no limits, when he has a limit in relation to zeno.
Click to expand...
This too. That's another jump.

You either accept the dragon is beyond Zeno, which means there's nothing to scale. Or you accept Zeno is superior, and being someone that also does not have any 2-B feat, there's nothing at all.

Simply doesn't work.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Because the dragon has no 2-B feats. Simple as that.

The property of granting any wish does not inherently means he could restore 2-B amounts of universes, specially when they only talk about constantly of the collective 12 to 18 (which already paints a clear picture of the kinds of scale those "any wishes" would entail).

Based on a statement that doesn't properly elaborate you want to then go to the highest interpretation, and that simply doesn't fly with me.
Click to expand...
Why does it matter if he doesn't have any 2-B feats, so do you think he wouldn't be able to bring back more amounts of universes than he already has? I mean even zeno himself said it can do literally anything, so we don't actually know if SS would scale above zeno or not
 
TiltedFN said:
Why does it matter if he doesn't have any 2-B feats, so do you think he wouldn't be able to bring back more amounts of universes than he already has?
Click to expand...
Without feats or a clear statement? Damn straight. That's how it is.

Edit: The bolded is also an insane problem, ngl. You want to scale without proper feats or clear statements. That by itself is grounds to just close this imo.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Without feats or a clear statement? Damn straight. That's how it is.
Click to expand...
But we already know that the zeno's said it can do anything, yet and one of them erased an entire timeline and reached into another, why is it so bad to assume that one of the zenos could scale to the cosmology? At least a 'possibly 2-B rating' for zeno or SS
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Without feats or a clear statement? Damn straight. That's how it is.

Edit: The bolded is also an insane problem, ngl. You want to scale without proper feats or clear statements. That by itself is grounds to just close this imo.
Click to expand...
i think there is a decent amount of evidence that zeno could just scale to everything, and still saying super shenron can do 'anything'
 
TiltedFN said:
But we already know that the zeno's said it can do anything, yet and one of them erased an entire timeline and reached into another, why is it so bad to assume that one of the zenos could scale to the cosmology? At least a 'possibly 2-B rating' for zeno or SS
Click to expand...
You said it. It's an assumption, an unsupported one at that.

There's not even room for possibly.
 
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