zatanna and magic user addition

[XXKINGXX69]

If the volume for Justice League Dark isn't specified, its volume 1

Zatanna Abilities:

Our current justification for Ice Manipulation is attempting to freeze Dr Manhattan, but her freezing a tsunami that was going to cover a city in Justice League 2011 #17 is a better example
This is used for resurrection, but there are better examples of Zatanna herself doing it like when she revived Phantom Stranger when his heart stopped beating by giving him life and returning his soul to his body - The Phantom Stranger 2011 #8
Biological Manipulation: In the scan used for Organic Manipulation, she removed Eclipso's mouth, which I think fits biological manipulation more than organic
Fire Manipulation: Her profile has lighting a cigar as justification, but its good to add something that implies she can shoot it as well, like when her cousin used backwards magic to shoot blue fire - Raven: Daughter of Darkness #8
Fusionism: Merged with Upside Down Man in body and mind - Justice League Dark Vol 2 #27 and then entered his mind to attempt to control it and broke him from the inside after controlling his actions - Justice League Dark Vol 2 #28 though I can't remember if she was amped here
Immersion: In the aforementioned scan, she entered Upside Down Man's mind by merging with it. Used a spell that summoned a gate to the Hell that was part of Phantom Stranger's consciousness, though it took some time - Trinity of Sin: The Phantom Stranger #9. Entered a person's psyche to view their memories - Justice League Dark #31
Invisibility: When her magic power was amped by the Wild Area, made her team invisible - Justice League Dark #17
Acausality: Remains relatively unchanged from changes in history from things like Zero Hour and Flashpoint, which is true since her Pre Crisis origin was the same as her post crisis origin - The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained (this is a guidebook published by DC with help from various DC authors)
Portal Creation: Creates a portal to Dr Mist's location - Justice League Dark #12
With magic, can grant people resistance to Corruption: Protects herself and other from Pandora's box which corrupted the minds of Wonder Woman and Shazam - Justice League Dark #23
Platform Creation: Made a flying platform that the JLD can fly on - Justice League Dark #34

Stuff that applies to magic users in general:

Empowerment l and Statistics Amplification: Because the power of magic comes from belief, a magic user can believe that they are more powerful to make them stronger, which is how the JLD damaged Upside Down Man or blocked attacks from him, though Zatanna herself was getting stronger also because of Darkworld - Justice League Dark Vol 2 #26. The power of magic is from belief - JLD Vol 2 #12, Wonder Woman states magic is powered by belief - JLD Vol 2 #14
Supernatural Willpower: Magic users use belief and the will to shape reality around them - Justice League Dark Vol 2 #2. Magic users use sheer force of will to turn something from myth and dream into reality - Justice League Dark Vol 2 #25
Matter Manipulation on a quark level (for magic users that manipulate matter): Magic users shape reality through manipulating the quarks within atoms - Black Manta #1
Creation: Magic doesn't shape 1 form of energy to another like a Green Lantern, it creates - Justice League 2018 #42

Weakness: Because the power of magic comes from belief, a magic user would obviously be weaker if they don't believe enough. In the scans I posted for Fusionism, Upside Down Man grew weaker because she altered his mind to make him believe that his magic has a cost and he wasn't infinite

 

[Armorchompy]

If the volume for Justice League Dark isn't specified, its volume 1

Not actually the case, a lot are from JLD2 without specification.

Our current justification for Ice Manipulation is attempting to freeze Dr Manhattan, but her freezing a tsunami that was going to cover a city in Justice League 2011 #17 is a better example

Sure ig

This is used for resurrection, but there are better examples of Zatanna herself doing it like when she revived Phantom Stranger when his heart stopped beating by giving him life and returning his soul to his body - The Phantom Stranger 2011 #8

Not resurrection and soul manip respectively

Biological Manipulation: In the scan used for Organic Manipulation, she removed Eclipso's mouth, which I think fits biological manipulation more than organic

I guess

Fire Manipulation: Her profile has lighting a cigar as justification, but its good to add something that implies she can shoot it as well, like when her cousin used backwards magic to shoot blue fire - Raven: Daughter of Darkness #8

Is there any clear statement that Zach is < Zatanna? Can't be scaled otherwise.

Fusionism: Merged with Upside Down Man in body and mind - Justice League Dark #27 and then entered his mind to attempt to control it and broke him from the inside after controlling his actions - Justice League Dark #28 though I can't remember if she was amped here

She was. Also not JLD Vol 1.

Immersion: In the aforementioned scan, she entered Upside Down Man's mind by merging with it. Used a spell that summoned a gate to the Hell that was part of Phantom Stranger's consciousness, though it took some time - Trinity of Sin: The Phantom Stranger #9. Entered a person's psyche to view their memories - Justice League Dark #31

Not immersion.

Invisibility: Made her team invisible though we didn't see how it happened, then instantly made them visible - Justice League Dark #9 When her magic power was amped by the Wild Area, made her team invisible - Justice League Dark #17

Scan is out of context, it's actually illusion creation. Wild area is an amp.

Acausality: Remains relatively unchanged from changes in history from things like Zero Hour and Flashpoint, which is true since her Pre Crisis origin was the same as her post crisis origin - The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained (this is a guidebook published by DC with help from various DC authors)

This is just a verse thing, not an actual power.

Portal Creation: Creates a portal to Dr Mist's location - Justice League Dark #12

I listed that as teleportation but yeah that should be added.

With magic, can grant people resistance to Corruption: Protects herself and other from Pandora's box which corrupted the minds of Wonder Woman and Shazam - Justice League Dark #23

I guess yeah

Dream manipulation: t

?

Platform Creation: Made a flying platform that the JLD can fly on - Justice League Dark #34

Sure

Reactive Power Level and Statistics Amplification: Because the power of magic comes from belief, a magic user can believe that they are more powerful to make them stronger, which is how the JLD damaged Upside Down Man or blocked attacks from him, though Zatanna herself was getting stronger also because of Darkworld - Justice League Dark Vol 2 #26

Not really, this is just generic stuff, half of these aren't even magic related, Bobo is literally just a chimpanzee physically. And no they were amped when they fought UDM, don't try to sneak "haha up to 1-A with willpower xd" into this.

Supernatural Willpower: Magic users use belief and the will to shape reality around them - Justice League Dark Vol 2 #2. Magic users use sheer force of will to turn something from myth and dream into reality - Justice League Dark Vol 2 #25
Matter Manipulation on a quark level (for magic users that manipulate matter): Magic users shape reality through manipulating the quarks within atoms - Black Manta #1

I guess yeah

Creation: Magic doesn't shape 1 form of energy to another like a Green Lantern, it creates - Justice League 2018 #42

Creation is not literal here given that Xanadu's pulling off a teleportation, it's just more of an explanation of its workings.

Weakness: Because the power of magic comes from belief, a magic user would obviously be weaker if they don't believe enough. In the scans I posted for Fusionism, Upside Down Man grew weaker because she altered his mind to make him believe that his magic has a cost and he wasn't infinite

eeeh

 

[XXKINGXX69]

For the illusion thing, are you saying they were disguised? She said "become visible"

Why is it not resurrection? Is it because he wasn't fully dead yet? She still did say she was giving life and returned phantom stranger's soul

There are characters with immersion for entering dreams, so I think entering someone's mind like that is immersion

Can you show me where its a verse thing and not power?

You used a scan of Zatanna's dad doing something for resurrection so I thought other backwards magic abilities would apply to her, and zachary is weak as hell, it would be weird for him to have spells that Zatanna doesn't

And I'm not saying they are 1-A with willpower, I know zatanna was amped which is why I didn't use anything for AP, but can you show me where everyone else was amped?


Why did you say Bobo is just a chimpanzee? It doesn't matter here, he's just talking about magic in general He slashed UDM in their first encounter and created Myrra and governs it with his sword

I don't know what happened with that dream manipulation stuff

 

[Armorchompy]

For the illusion thing, are you saying they were disguised? She said "become visible"

Literally look at the scan, they were not invisible but disguised.

Why is it not resurrection? Is it because he wasn't fully dead yet? She still did say she was giving life and returned phantom stranger's soul

It's literally just a heart massage, basic telekinesis. Not every single spell of Zatanna is literal. And yes, that is soul manip.

There are characters with immersion for entering dreams, so I think entering someone's mind like that is immersion

Well they're wrong. Immersion is entering fictional locations, look at the power page.

Can you show me where its a verse thing and not power?

Should be pretty obvious, a fuckton of characters were unchanged by flashpoint.

You used a scan of Zatanna's dad doing something for resurrection so I thought other backwards magic abilities would apply to her, and zachary is weak as hell, it would be weird for him to have spells that Zatanna doesn't

She literally does the thing in the resurrection feat, her father just takes the price. And it wouldn't surprise me if he was weaker, and what he does would probably apply to Zatanna, but I would want an actual statement.

And I'm not saying they are 1-A with willpower, I know zatanna was amped which is why I didn't use anything for AP, but can you show me where everyone else was amped?

The fact that Zatanna, the strongest on the team, is amped, and still is way weaker than UDM, would kinda imply that any other magician is amped by the place too if they can do anything.

Why did you say Bobo is just a chimpanzee? He slashed UDM in their first encounter

A chimpanzee with a magic sword, physically he's normal minus his intelligence, so him being included in the willpower statement kinda debunks the whole thing being an actual tangible amp isntead of generic magicky shit. (Not that UDM has any set durability, his avatars are glass cannons)

I don't know what happened with that dream manipulation stuff

ok.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Should be pretty obvious, a fuckton of characters were unchanged by flashpoint.
.

The fact that Zatanna, the strongest on the team, is amped, and still is way weaker than UDM, would kinda imply that any other magician is amped by the place too if they can do anything.

They were unchanged either due to not even being part of the universes manhattan affected or because they just simply resisted it, do you think Zatanna just wasn't in the universe during flashpoint?

The JLD had to weaken UDM to damage him, or they just could have grown stronger through belief, and Wonder Woman was stronger than Zatanna as she could do more damage to him

 

[Armorchompy]

They were unchanged either due to not even being part of the universes manhattan affected or because they just simply resisted it, do you think Zatanna just wasn't in the universe during flashpoint?

Surely you do realize that giving a fuckton of characters 1-A acausality just because DC chose to not include them in a retcon is stupid?

The JLD had to weaken UDM to damage him, or they just could have grown stronger through belief, and Wonder Woman was stronger than Zatanna as she could do more damage to him

... So, the fact that they're on the same level as Zatanna, who is normally stronger without them without the amp, tells us that they're amped. Again the willpower shit is the vaguest thing ever and half of the examples in it aren't related to power level, ain't gonna pass (and would be empowerment anyway, not RPL).

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Surely you do realize that giving a fuckton of characters 1-A acausality just because DC chose to not include them in a retcon is stupid?

... So, the fact that they're on the same level as Zatanna, who is normally stronger without them without the amp, tells us that they're amped. Again the willpower shit is the vaguest thing ever and half of the examples in it aren't related to power level, ain't gonna pass (and would be empowerment anyway, not RPL).

What other characters were also part of the universe Dr Manhattan changed and were unaffected by it?

Yeah, they amped themselves with belief, its not vague, if magic stems from belief then obviously believing in yourself would make you stronger. Batman also just says magic is powered by belief

And its reactive power level because the power is based on how much belief they have, they can even grow weaker with less belief

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Sure: Ice Manip, Bio Manip, Platform Creation, Portal Creation, Supernatural Willpower and Corruption Resistance w/ Magic. If their Magic is tied to their Belief the weakness proposal seems fine.

Entering Dreams is Dream Manipulation I’m p sure, and returning the Stranger’s soul to his body would be Soul Manip.

Can’t comment on the UDM stuff, haven’t read the storyline. Neutral on the Acausality.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Surely you do realize that giving a fuckton of characters 1-A acausality just because DC chose to not include them in a retcon is stupid?

... So, the fact that they're on the same level as Zatanna, who is normally stronger without them without the amp, tells us that they're amped. Again the willpower shit is the vaguest thing ever and half of the examples in it aren't related to power level, ain't gonna pass (and would be empowerment anyway, not RPL).

And does Zatanna learn new spells when she gets more magic power from the surroudnings?

 

[Armorchompy]

And does Zatanna learn new spells when she gets more magic power from the surroudnings?

No way to know if she's able to perform things she wouldn't or otherwise, hence we don't add.

What other characters were also part of the universe Dr Manhattan changed and were unaffected by it?

idk specifically

Yeah, they amped themselves with belief, its not vague, if magic stems from belief then obviously believing in yourself would make you stronger.

Literally not correct anyway, in the scan you presented only Zatanna actually talks about her power being increased, everyone else talks about how things have shaped in their favor.

Batman also just says magic is powered by belief

Scans?

And its reactive power level because the power is based on how much belief they have, they can even grow weaker with less belief

No, that is empowerment. RPL is your power growing to match an external source

 

[XXKINGXX69]

No way to know if she's able to perform things she wouldn't or otherwise, hence we don't add.

idk specifically

Literally not correct anyway, in the scan you presented only Zatanna actually talks about her power being increased, everyone else talks about how things have shaped in their favor.

Scans?

No, that is empowerment. RPL is your power growing to match an external source

I think you would need evidence that Zatanna just randomly learns new spells when she gets more power

idk specifically

Yeah, because there's very little people, I can't even remember them outside of Superman, but that's only because the Metaverse revolves around Superman. The ones who werent affected were because they weren't even in the universe Manhattan or The Flash changed, like Metron or Darkseid's Godhead, along with other people who aren't part of the Orrery. And the people who remember pre-flashpoint events only got it due to Convergence and Doomsday Clock. Basically, almost everyone was affected by it but regained their histories or memories, almost no one just wasn't affected by it unless they weren't part of the Orrery

Literally not correct anyway, in the scan you presented only Zatanna actually talks about her power being increased, everyone else talks about how things have shaped in their favor.

She states her power is increased while in Darkworld, while the others talk about how magic in general is just powered by belief and them believing that their power is absolute is what allows them to affect UDM, which is supported by the fact that when UDM had less belief, he was destroyed by Zatanna due to growing weaker. They didn't even say it just applied to UDM, he said it was just the fundamentals of magic.

Scans?

Here in JLD vol 2 #12, Batman states that the power of magic is from belief, and magic users are just doing things through sheer belief. In JLD Vol 2 #14, Wonder Woman also states that magic is powered by belief. So if anything, magic users just have statistics amplification and empowerment if they just believe in themselves enough.

And I crossed out some things you rejected in the OP

 

[Armorchompy]

I think you would need evidence that Zatanna just randomly learns new spells when she gets more power

I think you would need evidence she's able to perform all she does in an amped state. Her power is reality warping, becoming more powerful would possibly be capable of doing things she couldn't before.

Yeah, because there's very little people, I can't even remember them outside of Superman, but that's only because the Metaverse revolves around Superman. The ones who werent affected were because they weren't even in the universe Manhattan or The Flash changed, like Metron or Darkseid's Godhead, along with other people who aren't part of the Orrery. And the people who remember pre-flashpoint events only got it due to Convergence and Doomsday Clock. Basically, almost everyone was affected by it but regained their histories or memories, almost no one just wasn't affected by it unless they weren't part of the Orrery

Idk this stuff so well. @Confluctor is this correct?

Here in JLD vol 2 #12, Batman states that the power of magic is from belief, and magic users are just doing things through sheer belief. In JLD Vol 2 #14, Wonder Woman also states that magic is powered by belief. So if anything, magic users just have statistics amplification and empowerment if they just believe in themselves enough.

With that added, seems fine. Not to scale them to 1-A via willpower amps, that's just stupid.

 

[Confluctor]

Idk this stuff so well. @Confluctor is this correct?

Regarding Doomsday Clock; We never got a proper answer to what extent their histories were merged. For example, we know most of new 52 Superman lore is removed from existence and replaced by post crisis, but the others... They never really expanded too much on it, so hard to say.

Regarding Zero Hour; only certain characters and their history were actually retconed. Almost majority weren't retconed. They tried to recreate the universe almost exactly the way it was meant to be with extremely minor differences.

Regarding Convergence; not all of them regained their histories or memories, just some. Again, extremely limited number of people. And that was just to retcon cool shit into them. However, most got ignored by Rebirth.

Regarding the scan in the OP; we don't use handbooks, especially for an insanely op ability like this. Which is actually contradicted by canon material. Zatanna was most definitely affected by flashpoint and we saw that in the new 52 books. And she wasn't "affected" by zero hour because, newsflash, not many were, just very few were affected. And that was in a very limited way too.

Honestly I am very confused about the acausality argument. Like what bruh

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I think you would need evidence she's able to perform all she does in an amped state. Her power is reality warping, becoming more powerful would possibly be capable of doing things she couldn't before.

Idk this stuff so well. @Confluctor is this correct?

With that added, seems fine. Not to scale them to 1-A via willpower amps, that's just stupid.

They could probably be 1-A or 4-B more consistently for all I know, I'm only fpcusing on reading Zatanna's appearances, don't know much about Constantine which is why I won't ask for 1-A upgrade

Regarding Doomsday Clock; We never got a proper answer to what extent their histories were merged. For example, we know most of new 52 Superman lore is removed from existence and replaced by post crisis, but the others... They never really expanded too much on it, so hard to say.

Regarding Zero Hour; only certain characters and their history were actually retconed. Almost majority weren't retconed. They tried to recreate the universe almost exactly the way it was meant to be with extremely minor differences.

Regarding Convergence; not all of them regained their histories or memories, just some. Again, extremely limited number of people. And that was just to retcon cool shit into them. However, most got ignored by Rebirth.

Regarding the scan in the OP; we don't use handbooks, especially for an insanely op ability like this. Which is actually contradicted by canon material. Zatanna was most definitely affected by flashpoint and we saw that in the new 52 books. And she wasn't "affected" by zero hour because, newsflash, not many were, just very few were affected. And that was in a very limited way too.

Honestly I am very confused about the acausality argument. Like what bruh

What I'm saying is that not many characters were not outside of the orrery of worlds and were unaffected by Flashpoint

And can you tell me which issues Zatanna was shown to be affected by Flashpoint? I read her appearances chronologically, and I didn't see anything like that at all. In fact, they never even changed her origin story which is even more evidence to support this, as almost everyone else had their origins changed while they never even showed a different origin story for her. And Hellblazer just continued after flashpoint

Most people were affected to a very minor extent by Zero Hour too

 

[Confluctor]

What I'm saying is that not many characters were not outside of the orrery of worlds and were unaffected by Flashpoint

You can say that all you want, but initially everyone was affected. It wasn't until later retcons where it was revealed their true forms weren't affected.

And can you tell me which issues Zatanna was shown to be affected by Flashpoint? I read her appearances chronologically, and I didn't see anything like that at all. In fact, they never even changed her origin story which is even more evidence to support this, as almost everyone else had their origins changed while they never even showed a different origin story for her. And Hellblazer just continued after flashpoint

And so did green lantern, and batman. But they were still affected, yet not at the same time. Not because they have some amazing abilities but because of the incompetence of editors in charge. Similarly to pre crisis where GLs didn't get rebooted - their history and shit was the same - but technically, they did get rebooted.

Most people were affected to a very minor extent by Zero Hour too

No, very few were.

But I am interested to see the list of people that were affected according to you and how exactly were they affected.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

You can say that all you want, but initially everyone was affected. It wasn't until later retcons where it was revealed their true forms weren't affected.

And so did green lantern, and batman. But they were still affected, yet not at the same time. Not because they have some amazing abilities but because of the incompetence of editors in charge. Similarly to pre crisis where GLs didn't get rebooted - their history and shit was the same - but technically, they did get rebooted.


No, very few were.

But I am interested to see the list of people that were affected according to you and how exactly were they affected.

You can say that all you want, but initially everyone was affected. It wasn't until later retcons where it was revealed their true forms weren't affected.

What true forms? Darkseid is the only one who uses avatars, albeit rarely, they mostly does decrease their size

And so did green lantern, and batman. But they were still affected, yet not at the same time.

Hal and Batman have origin stories in New 52, and again, what implies Zatanna was affected much by Flashpoint?

 

[Confluctor]

What true forms? Darkseid is the only one who uses avatars, albeit rarely, they mostly does decrease their size

Tbf only darkseid is the relevant one according to DC - despite being the worst of them. But in any case, I haven't been keeping up with wondy stuff so not sure. But all of those 6D beings were affected too. Orion, darkseid, Zeus, Ares, etc, etc.

Hal and Batman have origin stories in New 52, and again, what implies Zatanna was affected much by Flashpoint?

Pretty sure there are quite a few difference, I will relook.

But what makes you think just because they weren't ****** by a company wide event gives them acausality? Do you not see how faulty that reasoning is. Just for the sake of wanking, you are leaving out irl context.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Pretty sure there are quite a few difference, I will relook.

But what makes you think just because they weren't ****** by a company wide event gives them acausality? Do you not see how faulty that reasoning is. Just for the sake of wanking, you are leaving out irl context.

Pretty sure there are quite a few difference, I will relook.

Ok, but in the meantime can you tell me if you agree with the other stuff in the OP? I crossed out the ones Armorchompy disagreed with because I agree with him now, and tell me if you think Zatanna gains new abilities with a vague "more magic power amp" (obviously the potency of the hax would be unquantifiable for her base), because that one needs more staff input

But what makes you think just because they weren't ****** by a company wide event gives them acausality? Do you not see how faulty that reasoning is. Just for the sake of wanking, you are leaving out irl context.

The reason why I say that is because the only way to be unaffected by Flashpoint I've seen is just not being in the universe, or some Superman shenanigans Doctor Manhattan talked about

 

[Confluctor]

The reason why I say that is because the only way to be unaffected by Flashpoint I've seen is just not being in the universe, or some Superman shenanigans Doctor Manhattan talked about

Literally everything was affected by flashpoint until a later retcon - which is still shaky more or less. Heck, even the other higher cosmic beings were 100% affected at first.

Even GL and Batman, whose stories continued were affected by Flashpoint and created an incoherent mess of their lore and continuity.

 

[Armorchompy]

They could probably be 1-A or 4-B more consistently for all I know, I'm only fpcusing on reading Zatanna's appearances, don't know much about Constantine which is why I won't ask for 1-A upgrade

He's usually fodder to just about any magician he fights, to give context.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

He's usually fodder to just about any magician he fights, to give context.

Is harming someone enough to make them yelp in pain with an energy blast a feat you can use to scale him to that character?

 

[Armorchompy]

Is harming someone enough to make them yelp in pain with an energy blast a feat you can use to scale him to that character?

depending on context

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Literally everything was affected by flashpoint until a later retcon - which is still shaky more or less. Heck, even the other higher cosmic beings were 100% affected at first.

Still waiting for this explanation and the comic that showed Zatanna was affected

 

[Confluctor]

Just read the comic yourself, both pre and post, and then use comic scans - actual scans instead of using a guidebook and your headcanon - to give her tier 1 acausality. Waiting for that evidence.

 

[Armorchompy]

I can confirm she was affected, she's way more mopey and depressed before Rebirth.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I can confirm she was affected, she's way more mopey and depressed before Rebirth.

How does that mean she was affected by it, that's just her character being slightly different. And can you tell me which comics youre referring to so I know what you're talking about?

Just read the comic yourself, both pre and post, and then use comic scans - actual scans instead of using a guidebook and your headcanon - to give her tier 1 acausality. Waiting for that evidence.

What comic? And telling me to "just read the comic" isn't evidence. And can you tell me what you think of the other stuff Armorchompy agreed and disagreed with, I crossed out the ones he disagreed with

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Literally everything was affected by flashpoint until a later retcon - which is still shaky more or less. Heck, even the other higher cosmic beings were 100% affected at first.

Even GL and Batman, whose stories continued were affected by Flashpoint and created an incoherent mess of their lore and continuity.

And should there be another thread for if cosmic beings weren't affected?

 

[Armorchompy]

How does that mean she was affected by it, that's just her character being slightly different.

How do you suggest she just changed like that

And can you tell me which comics youre referring to so I know what you're talking about?

JLD vol 1 vs 2

 

[Confluctor]

What comic? And telling me to "just read the comic" isn't evidence

It's up to you to prove it, which you can't.

And should there be another thread for if cosmic beings weren't affected?

?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

It's up to you to prove it, which you can't.

I used a guidebook statement for the main argument, then you said it was headcanon and contradicted by the comics, and I asked you to prove it, but you asked me to prove they weren't affected when I already did with that guidebook. Guidebooks alone are fine if not contradicted, and I explained why having acausality is fine because Zatanna wasn't changed by something which affected the history of others, and its most likely not a verse thing because people only get unaffected if they're in the sphere of the gods

?

Like a thread for whether or not gods were affected by Flashpoint. Like why would Metron even before convergence be unaffected but other gods are?

 

[Confluctor]

Guidebooks alone are fine if not contradicted, and I explained why having acausality is fine because Zatanna wasn't changed by something which affected

Why don't you prove she wasn't affected in any way at all. Go on.

Like why would Metron even before convergence be unaffected but other gods are?

This is not from JL7, can you find the right source?