Zamasu (manga) Regenerationn

[PaChi2]

"No." is not a argument. He literally has the same powers and adaptability as Goku who learned the skill after seeing it once, and has stated he can wipe things from existence, so there is no reason to believe he can't use it to.

We gave him all of Goku's other moves even if he didn't use them so this should be no different, especially since he has seen it and implied he could do it when he said he can wipe things from existence.

You take things too literally and to the very extreme. It reminds me of pokemon and TLoZ.

An enraged Zamasu saying that he would wipe Goku and the universe from existencr doesnt imply by any means that its to be taken as literal EE. Especially when he never used any kind of form of EE.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that it seems safest to either change Zamasu's power to "possibly existence erasure", or to remove it then.

 

[Therefir]

Goku used the Hakai against Zamasu for the first time, unlike his other abilities.

 

[PaChi2]

It was a surprise, but like I said, after it is used on him it applies, since Goku learned it by seeing it once to. There is virtually no time lapse where Goku trains from when Goku saw it to when he uses it. He is just fighting Black and Zamasu after he sees it multiple times, and he didn't even want to use it either thinking he would never use it, further showing he pulled it out after seeing it once. Zamasu who has the same adaptability could logically do the same and has said he can wipe people and things from existance. We gave him all Goku's other moves even when he didn't see them, so this is a no brainer to give him one he saw and survived. Refusing to give him Hakai which he actually saw first hand, and accepting kaioken, solar flare etc. would be double standards.

Im fine with removing Solar flare, kaioken and the rest, just saying.

 

[SSJRyu1]

That's called a supporting point. Taken alone no, but the fact he has all Goku's abilities, we accept he likely has the ones he has not used, and has seen Hakai first hand, combined with the fact he is stated to be able to wipe things from existence all support that he can likely use Hakai. At worst you'd have to put "Possibly Existence Erasure" since it is more likely than not he has it after seeing it.

Anyway i've made my point. If you really have such a big issue with it I can stick a possibly in front of existence erasure, but I don't see any compelling evidence to deny him one of Goku's moves when he has seen it first hand, can learn it seeing it once just like Goku, has stated he can wipe things from existence and we already accept he can use all Goku's moves.

I will stick a possibly in front like for kaioken, solar flare etc. Going to sleep now, I think the profile changes are complete so the two can be locked.

 

[Therefir]

I'm quite certain that Zamasu was claiming that he could destroy an entire galaxy, because not even the GoDs have shown that amount of range with Hakai, and remember that he was surprised by Goku's Hakai shortly after.

 

[AguilaR101]

I don't think Black/Zamasu in the manga should be assumed to have any of Goku's abilties to begin with, unlike the anime there is not a single instance in the manga where we actually see Black using Goku's techniques ie: Instant Transmission, Kamehameha or even copying his basic fighting style. Unlike the Anime he did not get stronger by better understanding Goku's style, he got stronger by abusing Zenkai which is an ability any Saiyan body has.

The manga also makes a very explicit point about Black self-admitedly not being able to use Goku's abilities like he expected which further reinforces that point.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Yes, he said he would wipe them and the entire galaxy from existence. The main reason he has it listed as Possible EE though is that Goku learned it after just seeing it once despite never thinking he would ever use it, and not having any training in it, and Zamasu has Goku's potential and adaptability and has seen it first hand, not to mention he is an actual god, so logically he could also copy it after that just like Goku did. The possibly is there due to him not using the move directly like for kaioken. Solar flare etc. So it is a reasonable compromise.

 

[Therefir]

AguilaR101 is right, Black could barely use ssj after stealing Goku's body.

So basically, Ryu is saying that Zamasu have a skill that even Goku couldn't use until their final fight, and to say he could do it after seeing it is unfounded.

The ability should be deleted for now since you are the one who proposed it, an ability like the Hakai should be well discussed and agreed upon by several members.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Umm, that's not true. Black uses IT and Kamehameha in base, learns SSJ and SSJR (Blue equal) all in that short arc, if anything he learns the moves faster than Goku did.

https://imgur.com/a/3UWQ5DP

He definably learns Goku's moves. there is no reason to delete the move. Listing it as possibly EE is perfectly reasonable and a good compromise for people who want to low ball.

Anybody would logically say there is at least a strong possibility he can use Hakai given the evidence, which is what possibly ratings are for. It really should not be completely deleted as it is worth mentioning.

Now I am actually going to sleep XD If somebody could lock the profiles as are that would be great.

 

[Therefir]

I'm pretty sure that originally he wasn't able to transform into ssj Rose, so giving him the Hakai, an ability that Goku couldn't use until his fight with Zamasu, is completely baseless.

 

[AguilaR101]

I stand corrected on IT and KHH. but SSJ and SSJR were things that he had trouble accessing and had to extensively abuse zenkai to achieve.

 

[SSJRyu1]

No, the fact he learned Rose and SSJ on the fly after seeing them just proves he can learn a move just from seeing it used even more. So it actually supports my point he would learn hakai from seeing it used just like Goku did from seeing Beerus use it once.

 

[Therefir]

Ssj and Hakai are not the same thing, giving him this ability because he could potentially do it is a bit silly if you think about it.

 

[AguilaR101]

He didn't learn them on the fly, he had already seen them in action via godtube long before he had access to the forms and he outright admitted he couldn't even transform into super saiyan at first.

 

[SSJRyu1]

They are not the same, but goku learns hakai by seeing it once, no training or multiple times seeing it, so logically Zamasu can do the same. The fact he can learn SSJ and even SSJB by seeing them even faster than Goku just supports his ability to learn moves like Goku, but even faster.

Anyway I understand since he didn't directly use it placing a possibly, but everybody must admit there is at least a good possibility he can do Hakai after seeing it, and that is what the "possibly" rating is made for, so I honestly think it is best to mention it as possibly since it is important and that is the most accurate rating to give it as it is a high possibility but not 100% confirmed.

Anyway g'night, im tired, id apprieciate it if somebody could lock the 2 profiles as is and we leave it at the currently agreed upon Possibly EE as that seems the best compromise and most accurate.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that it is best to remove the hakai/existence erasure for Zamasu then.

 

[PaChi2]

"Currently agreed upon"?

There was nearly to no discussion regarding the addition of Hakai. If anything, it should be removed. Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, that was my fault, as I mistook this as a small self-evident issue. Sorry.

 

[AKM sama]

Just because Goku pulled off a technique successfully for the first time after seeing it once, doesn't mean Zamasu also gets that technique. He has the potential, sure. But unless there is some evidence confirming he learned it, we can't add all the abilities to a character just because he has the potential to learn them.

I think SD might have something to say on how we should treat manga hakai because he participated in the previous CRT, so I'll message him.

 

[PaChi2]

Yeah, that was my fault, as I mistook this as a small self-evident issue. Sorry.

No probs, really. Its minor.

 

[Antvasima]

Has EE been removed from Zamasu?

 

[My_area]

As much as I like mid godly Merged Zamasu but Beerus statement of destroying soul isn't enough as Beerus is known for his bluffs

Its also strange for Beerus hakai to not kill Merged Zamasu when Goku imperfect hakai was able to do

 

[Warren_Valion]

As much as I like mid godly Merged Zamasu but Beerus statement of destroying soul isn't enough as Beerus is known for his bluffs
Its also strange for Beerus hakai to not kill Merged Zamasu when Goku imperfect hakai was able to do

When has Beerus ever bluffed anything?

And Goku's imperfect Hakai was working on Zamasu because Zamasu lacks resistance to EE, not because he can't regenerate from the damage. Especially since it was shown that he did regenerate from the damage.

 

[My_area]

Beerus is always a guys who overestimates himself and bluffs that he will kill even though he wont just like how he bluffs to Goku that he will kill him when he wont

Ok then how would Beerus hakai not kill him if its a EE then?Why Beerus said that he wont be able to erase Zamasu then?Beerus statement is creditable since he rarely says that he cant kill someone

 

[Warren_Valion]

Beerus is always a guys who overestimates himself and bluffs that he will kill even though he wont just like how he bluffs to Goku that he will kill him when he wont
Ok then how would Beerus hakai not kill him if its a EE then?Why Beerus said that he wont be able to erase Zamasu then?Beerus statement is creditable since he rarely says that he cant kill someone

Beerus wouldn't say he is incapable of killing Zamasu if he was actually capable of it, what is this logic? And Beerus doesn't bluff his own strength, he is very clear about where he stands in the hierarchy.

Are you ******* serious? Do you know what thread you are on?

It's because of Zamasu's immortality and Regenerationn preventing Beerus from finishing the job. Beerus can destroy Zamasu's body and soul easily, but if you can regenerate from having your body and soul destroyed, then it doesn't matter.

 

[My_area]

What?I never said that?Beerus stated he cant kill Zamasu because his hakai(Which in manga doesn't erase souls) cant kill Zamasu and Beerus statement is accepted because Beerus knows about his hakai and rarely says thing where he cant defeat someone

What does on being in content revision board has to do anything?I am not joking nor trolling

Its because of his immortality that Beerus hakai wont work then how was Goku attack working then?Zamasu needing to grab Mai shows that

And Prove that hakai in manga can erase souls except that one statement from Beerus who has no validity behind it

 

[Warren_Valion]

You said that Beerus always bluffs and overrates himself and stated that Beerus says he can kill stuff that he actually can't. He doesn't, this claim is preposterous and completely unfounded.

This is a CRT about Zamasu's Regenerationn getting upgraded. Use some common sense in figuring out how Zamasu was going to be able to survive Beerus's Hakai.

Zamasu's Immortality and Regenerationn stop Beerus's Hakai from killing him, not from affecting him. Zamasu doesn't have a resistance to EE, but he can regenerate the damage that Hakai does. That's why he would have Mid-Godly regen.

Beerus said he would destroy Frieza's soul. So unless you are saying every Ki attack can destroy souls, Occam's Razor points to it being the only attack in the series that was shown to destroy souls - Hakai.

Every other medium treats Hakai as EE, and this completely credible quote from Beerus which does have validity to it seems to infer the manga does as well.

 

[My_area]

If you see DBS anime and manga then you will see that Beerus is one of the overestimating type of guy who overestimates himself like Frieza

Like how?Just because you said common sense doesn't mean the problem is solved,Beerus who has far superior hakai said that he cant kill Zamasu but Goku with inferior hakai was able to?Care ti explain how?

Zamasu reaction and suddenly grabbing Mai seemed like that Zamasu would have died if Goku hakai continues which again is contradicting Beerus statement

You do know that Hakai is EE?

No but what proof do you have that hakai can destroy souls?I am waiting

Just because Anime treats it doesn't mean manga treats it as well unless you have solid proofs that hakai can erase souls in manga

Completely creditable source?Like how?Its just usual Beerus giving threat to Frieza and made it more frightening when including soul as well then again there is nothing in manga supporting it

 

[Warren_Valion]

*Snip*

I have read the manga and watch the anime, Beerus is like that at all.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself for you to understand perfect English, but I guess I will do it again.

Beerus couldn't kill Zamasu because of his immortality which would regenerate all of Beerus's attacks. Zamasu doesn't have a resistance to EE and can still be affected by Hakai. That's why he was still being erased, but Zamasu's Regenerationn would stop Hakai from killing him. Goku wasn't able to kill Zamasu with Hakai, he was able to effect Zamasu because Zamasu lacks any resistance to EE.

That is your own headcanon that is completely baseless. Zamasu could have grabbed Mai for a number of reasons, like I don't know, to get Goku to stop trying to erase him? Just because you can regenerate a wound doesn't mean obtaining that wound doesn't hurt.

You do know that the wiki considered the manga's Hakai to be matter destruction and not EE, right? Mainly because there was seemingly no quote about Hakai in the manga destroying souls - until now that is.

I already explained the proof. Every other version of the media considers Hakai to be EE, and now with this quote from Beerus saying he would destroy Frieza's soul, it would imply the manga does as well. Occam's Razor points to it being the only attack in the series that was shown to destroy souls - Hakai.

Unless you want to say that regular old Ki attacks affect the soul.

Beerus never does any of the shit that you say. He doesn't bluff and he doesn't kid about his own power. He has never ever insinuated that he would do something that he couldn't do. If said he would destroy Frieza soul, then he would destroy it.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Warren makes sense.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Warren is right. Hakai should stay treated as EE fra. Two things.

1. Zamasu still should be listed as possibly having EE since he copied all Goku's other attacks just by seeing them like IT, kamehmaeha, SSJ, SSJB etc., has Goku's body and mimicry skills, and Goku showed that he can copy Hakai just by seeing it once, so Zamasu can likely do the same after seeing it. Literally the "possibly" rating is made for cases like this where it is a high probability, but not 100% confirmed. It is an ability worth mentioning on the profile as it is an important one.

2. Goku (chou) profile should be locked again now as it doesn't need any more revision right now.

 

[Antvasima]

I will lock the profile.

 

[My_area]

@ Warren

You are seriously telling me that Beerus doesn't mock or overestimates himself at all?*Sigh*

Isn't Hakai EE here?Its even listed as one in Existence erasure

Point but Zamasu reaction and him suddenly grabbing Mai seemed like that he was stopping it or otherwise he would die but good point

That Beerus statement has no validity and just because he said doesn't mean he can do it like the overconfident guy Beerus is,its just like accepting outliner statement with no proof

Its implying which still isn't accurate and it would just be assumption which would defeat the point of this wiki which is to accurately index characters,then again give me proof that manga hakai can erase souls since except pointing it as Occam's Razor

No I didn't mean that just that there is lack of proofs that manga Beerus hakai can do that

Beerus threatened to kill Goku twice,guess what happened?He is still alive,He called himself strongest person in the Universe just like Frieza and Buu and him bluffing to Frieza about soul doesn't mean he can because it would kill Frieza if it really did and they would need a 10th member since Frieza isn't there and they were running out of time

If majority agrees to mid godly Merged Zamasu its fine but I am against it specially when there is no proof of Beerus statement nor any proof that Beerus can be taken as reliable person unless he credits someone power which is rare

So I ask again bring me the proof that hakai can destroy souls in manga

 

[Antvasima]

I will unsubscribe to this thread now, but I think that it would be better to close it.

 

[My_area]

If majority agrees then oh well sure but I disagree because there isn't solid proofs for Zamasu Mid godly Regenerationn but I guess my opinion doesn't matter because I am new here

 

[SomebodyData]

So what's the argument that hakai has soul destroying properties?

 

[Hykuu]

that it's literally erased a soul?

 

[Warren_Valion]

So what's the argument that hakai has soul destroying properties?

Beerus stated that he would destroy Frieza's soul.

There are numerous possible solutions to what he meant by it:

• Beerus can destroy souls with a manga-exclusive technique that we've never seen, and that has not been hinted at all. [Possible but unlikely]
• Ki or God Ki, in general, can affect the soul, and that's how Beerus would have gone through with his threat. [Something which I don't believe has any proof in the series as a whole]
• Beerus is bluffing himself. [Unlikely and out-of-character]
• Beerus used Hakai and/or God of Destruction Ki which has the same erasing properties as Hakai. [Further explanation below]

Using Occam's razor, the most likely assumption on how he would be able to do such a thing is the last one - with Hakai, the ability that is treated as EE in every other form of the series, except the manga because it lacked statements on Hakai having soul destroying properties - until now that is.

And since Beerus said he wouldn't be able to kill Zamasu because of his immortality/Regenerationn, it would mean a substantial upgrade to manga Zamasu's Regenerationn.


Or at least that's what I understand of the argument.

 

[My_area]

So what's the argument that hakai has soul destroying properties?

Thats my point as well,As hakai was never shown to destroy a soul in manga so we cant just assume it can just because Beerus said it as a threat and anime hakai can erase soula while we all know that anime and manga is differemt

If you are talking about anime then its on Arale episode where Beerus uses hakai to erase a ghost which means it can affect Souls as well