Yor Briar vs Ken Masters

[Stillwinston]

Well been starting to watch spy x family, not bad figured I'd jump on the bandwagon and give this a try

• Speed is equalised
• Ken is 9-A
• Both are about 7 metres apart
• SBA otherwise

Thorn Princess: 0

Attack me if you dare: 4

Incon: 0

Yor Forger

Yor Forger, née Briar, is a 27-year-old municipal employee serving at Berlint City Hall. This role, however, merely serves as a facade to mask her true profession as the feared assassin, Thorn Princess. Beyond her deadly vocation, Yor's personal life intertwines with the covert operations of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Ken Masters

Ken (ケン or 拳 "Fist"), also known by his full name, Ken Masters (ケン・マスターズ Ken Masutāzu), is a video game character created by Capcom. He is one of the main protagonists of the Street Fighter series. Ken is also stated to be the second most popular character in the series, coming second to his...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

this seem interesting,following

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Following as well.

 

[SamanPatou]

First, how likely is Yor to try to kill Ryu? Because of current vs matches rules, stuff like Ryu's Satsui no Hado can't be restrained, as this version holds no control over it, meaning that if she wounds him badlt, or gets the upper hand while trying to kill him, Ryu is most likely going to snap and apstompblitz her.

 

[First_Witch]

Yor's entire concept of problem solving is the murdering the problem. She always goes for the kill

 

[SamanPatou]

Then I think this ends in a mismatch, 'cause unless she instantly murders him, Ryu's going to snap the moment she shows her true cards, unless he manages to take her down before she's able to do anything of that kind.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Who has the AP Advantage? I wanna say Ryu, but IDK

 

[Stillwinston]

Wait you can't restrict higher tier stuff anymore? Guess I could switch this to Ken or possibly Vega then?

 

[SamanPatou]

You can't restrict stuff the character can't hold back on their own.
For example, Goku's ssj forms can be restricted, as he decides whether or not turning them on, while Ryu's Satsui doesn't, as he doesn't hold control over it.

 

[Stillwinston]

I see, well swapped Ken in then I guess

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

You can't restrict stuff the character can't hold back on their own.
For example, Goku's ssj forms can be restricted, as he decides whether or not turning them on, while Ryu's Satsui doesn't, as he doesn't hold control over it.

Can you show me CRT for this?

 

[Jibz]

I thought restricting something instantly means it cant be added to the profile. Is this still the case?

 

[Stillwinston]

Usually if its something of a higher tier then the match is usually viable, if they're just their usual tier and listed as Higher with X thing then no from what I rememer Although apparently its been revised on the former that if the person in question can't control restricting it then no. Anyway we're derailing I swapped with Ken there

 

[The_Impress]

Can you show me CRT for this?

Here

 

[SamanPatou]

I have no knowledge of Yor, so I'll list what I think are Ken's advantages and then let SxF supporters reply.

First, as always, AP. Ken leads with a 4X advantage (with the possibility of using Damage Boost), upscaling from 0.1 ton while Yor scales to 0.025

Ken has a monstrous LS advantage, Class M vs Class 10 means he can restrain and crumple her with ease, push her away by a notable margin when she defends, and basically shove her around with throws and such whenever he manages to grab her.
And although Ken's fighting style isn't strictly focused on that, Ansatsuken has elements of judo and he himself uses a variety of throws. Also, he's still going to capitalize on it once he realizes that, because of simple logic.
Yor also seems to be somewhat fond of throws and submissions, at least from her P&A, but if she tries to do any of them, she'll fail badly, and they could even backfire on her.

Ken seems to be the most skilled of the two in pure martial arts, which doesn't mean combat in general, mind you, but it's still something.
Ken hasn't fought only in professional matches, he has had his fair shair of real battles, and isn't new to fighting assassins.
Ansatsuken is already an assassin art, and although him, Ryu and Gouken don't fight to kill, such knowledge is rooted in the very essence of the style itself.
He fought and defeated FANG, who's a master assassin and poison user who could have killed (or at the very very least incapacitated) him with just a graze of his nails.
He's also accostumed to fight/spar/train with the likes of Cammy, who uses extremely acrobatic military martial arts that were once based on assassination, and given the series Ken's in, and the amount of tournaments and adventures he went through, he might have stumbled upon some of the characters who are either assassins, use weapons or both, such as Geki, Vega, Eagle, Sodom, Birdie (who he has canonically fought), the Dolls etc...

Question, does Yor really use poison as standard equip? Her P&A only shows her talking about poisonous stuff she used in the past, but are they shown in the series, or they are simply mentioned as a relic of the past?

Range-wise, Ken's got somewhat of an advantage with his flashy, kick-based martial art that allows him to fight simply with his feet, and giving him an advantage against those who primarily use their arms. The hadokens also are the real deal here, they can be fired both from Ken's hands and feet, and have more than enough range, adding the fact that Ken has a lifetime of experience in using them. Yor doesn't have an answer to zoning.
Throwing her stilettos doesn't seem a good option for her, she'd just lose them, and the scans show a nobody dodging them, meaning Ken's should be able to dodge them as well, given his senses and experience against projectile users.

Ken's fire is also a thing, not only because fire, well, burns, but also because it can be trasmitted through the hadokens and Heat Rush imbues all of his contact techniques with flames.

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

For Now I'll vote for Ken for Sam's reasons

 

[Reploidnoridomix]

Question, does Yor really use poison as standard equip? Her P&A only shows her talking about poisonous stuff she used in the past, but are they shown in the series, or they are simply mentioned as a relic of the past?

from what i read in manga then no,she never use poison by the time the in the manga

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Here

Thanks.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also voting Ken via Sam's reasons.

 

[The_Impress]

Ye Ken FRA, although imo this is kinda super decisive.

Yor basically gets wrecked by any actual combatants imo

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Seems that way. What are her skill feats?

 

[Harith0cell]

Ken fra

 

[Stillwinston]

I'll try and dig thru some earlier threads for her when I'm off mobile, guess Ken is fuming cause his kids got taken off him lol

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump

Also, Ken's votes are 4, I haven't voted yet, I just expressed my thoughts, and I'll wait for possible rebuttals before casting a vote (although it doesn't invalidate other people's).

 

[First_Witch]

Ye Ken FRA, although imo this is kinda super decisive.

Yor basically gets wrecked by any actual combatants imo

I really hope you mean skill monster when you talk about "actual combatants", because Yor has far more direct combat feats than she has assassination feats.

Seems that way. What are her skill feats?

Really, most of it is already in her intellegence section, but to nutshell it:

• Yor has been an assassin since she was a small child.
• Garden Assassins are infamous for being able to singlehandily whipe out military troops, Yor is one of Gardens best assassins.
• High Pressure point skills
• Darn good Instinctive Reactions, allowing her to dodge near pointblank attacks
• Can pinpoint the exact location of another assassin by sensing his bloodlust through a huge crowd and knock him out with a thrown button
• And the best one last, solo an entire group of the continents best assassins, who were armed with guns, snipers, knives, swords etc etc, all skilled enough to completly erase their presence and ambush Yor.

I have no knowledge of Yor, so I'll list what I think are Ken's advantages and then let SxF supporters reply.

First, as always, AP. Ken leads with a 4X advantage (with the possibility of using Damage Boost), upscaling from 0.1 ton while Yor scales to 0.025

Ken has a monstrous LS advantage, Class M vs Class 10 means he can restrain and crumple her with ease, push her away by a notable margin when she defends, and basically shove her around with throws and such whenever he manages to grab her.
And although Ken's fighting style isn't strictly focused on that, Ansatsuken has elements of judo and he himself uses a variety of throws. Also, he's still going to capitalize on it once he realizes that, because of simple logic.
Yor also seems to be somewhat fond of throws and submissions, at least from her P&A, but if she tries to do any of them, she'll fail badly, and they could even backfire on her.

Objectivly correct, but I argue that she can elevate the difference slightly through Instinctive Reaction and Poison&Pressure Points. Both can feasibly kill each other in a couple hits.

Ken seems to be the most skilled of the two in pure martial arts, which doesn't mean combat in general, mind you, but it's still something.
Ken hasn't fought only in professional matches, he has had his fair shair of real battles, and isn't new to fighting assassins.
Ansatsuken is already an assassin art, and although him, Ryu and Gouken don't fight to kill, such knowledge is rooted in the very essence of the style itself.
He fought and defeated FANG, who's a master assassin and poison user who could have killed (or at the very very least incapacitated) him with just a graze of his nails.
He's also accostumed to fight/spar/train with the likes of Cammy, who uses extremely acrobatic military martial arts that were once based on assassination, and given the series Ken's in, and the amount of tournaments and adventures he went through, he might have stumbled upon some of the characters who are either assassins, use weapons or both, such as Geki, Vega, Eagle, Sodom, Birdie (who he has canonically fought), the Dolls etc...

Yor herself has dealt with a variety of different enemies, from normal although gun wielding goons to the continents best assassins, who all had different weapons and fighting styles themselve. Gunslingers, Snipers, even a swordmaster, at the same time. Ken is most definitly not skilled enough to waltz her face off, thats for sure.

Question, does Yor really use poison as standard equip? Her P&A only shows her talking about poisonous stuff she used in the past, but are they shown in the series, or they are simply mentioned as a relic of the past?

I don't quite understand how you reached that conclusion. She literally says that her Needles are poisoned, no past tense there.

Range-wise, Ken's got somewhat of an advantage with his flashy, kick-based martial art that allows him to fight simply with his feet, and giving him an advantage against those who primarily use their arms. The hadokens also are the real deal here, they can be fired both from Ken's hands and feet, and have more than enough range, adding the fact that Ken has a lifetime of experience in using them. Yor doesn't have an answer to zoning.
Throwing her stilettos doesn't seem a good option for her, she'd just lose them, and the scans show a nobody dodging them, meaning Ken's should be able to dodge them as well, given his senses and experience against projectile users.

Yor uses tons of kicks too and I argue that legs aren't really outranging arms then said arms are carrying stabby things.

I don't understand what you mean by nobody, do you mean the one where she threw a fork? Because A. That person is no nobody, Its Yors brother and a member of the Secret Police and B. She did throw it to kill him, she threw it to warn him. In fact, he didn't react to the throw until it graced his cheek.

 

[First_Witch]

Oh and Yor has used any kind of throwing techniques exactly once in the entire series and that was against someone she didnt want to kill at all.

 

[SamanPatou]

Objectivly correct, but I argue that she can elevate the difference slightly through Instinctive Reaction and Poison&Pressure Points. Both can feasibly kill each other in a couple hits.

Her pressure points don't seem to be anything special tbh, having a general knowledge of the human body and knocking out someone who's already tied up and defenseless are pretty basic stuff, nothing Ken can't easily deal with, given the amount and type of people he fought, his own martial knowledge, mobility and senses. Ken's ability to set her on fire with many of his attacks seems to be much more dangerous, in terms of what happens to who gets touched by the other.
Her instinctive reaction also don't seem to be super special and and seem closer to general reactions and speed.

Yor herself has dealt with a variety of different enemies, from normal although gun wielding goons to the continents best assassins, who all had different weapons and fighting styles themselve. Gunslingers, Snipers, even a swordmaster, at the same time. Ken is most definitly not skilled enough to waltz her face off, thats for sure.

Not waltz her off, surely, but if the two end up throwing hands physically, she's got the short end of the stick.

I don't quite understand how you reached that conclusion. She literally says that her Needles are poisoned, no past tense there.

Does she refer to her stilettos or just some kind of other, not-notable needles? Because the scans show her talking about of bunch of weapons and poison she keeps stored away, and Reploid here above says she never used said poison in the series.

Yor uses tons of kicks too and I argue that legs aren't really outranging arms then said arms are carrying stabby things.

Technically yes, since she wields stilletos and not swords or other things, but him using kicks is just the least notable part of his range advantage.

I don't understand what you mean by nobody, do you mean the one where she threw a fork? Because A. That person is no nobody, Its Yors brother and a member of the Secret Police and B. She did throw it to kill him, she threw it to warn him. In fact, he didn't react to the throw until it graced his cheek.

My bad, I assumed he wasn't anyone notable, since her profile doesn't refer to him in any particular way. Still, I don't think it means it would be optimal for her to throw them, and neither that it would be difficult for Ken to dodge.

Oh and Yor has used any kind of throwing techniques exactly once in the entire series and that was against someone she didnt want to kill at all.

I went with what's written on her file, which puts some emphasis on her being knowledgeable in throws.

 

[First_Witch]

She... Is that scan not on her profile? She subconsciously pressurepointed a raging cow whitout even knowing its anatomy. It really dosnt have to be special in order to be a factor lol.

What do you mean her IR is closer to general reactions and speed, She didnt even realised she was being attacked by her own chief until she dodged it, her attention was literally away from the attack, its a textbook example of IR. Furthermore you shoudnt forget that the attack was pointblank while she was grinning at flowers like an goof and still managed to dodge that.

In a skill comparason sure, but in an actual fight? Yor clearly has the ability advantage and Kens skill is not enough to ignore that.

Her daggers were never officially named in the series if i remember correctly. Additionally, the poison chapter is one of the first few chapters and they always tend to be inconsistent with their exact terminology. Needles is an abt term for what she uses and she has never used anything other than her 2 daggers, so the implication here is clear.

Thats because there was never a moment where a character was hit by her daggers and went "Oh no, her weapons are poisoned ded". In fact, not a single character survived Yor when she went after them with her weapons. She oneshots everyone with them. Granted Its mostly because she stabs them in vital areas, but there was never a moment that suggested her weapons to be clean.

Yor is a darn good thrower though. The button one is still there, and she nearly nailed a sniper with her throwing weapons, only dodging the attack because her knive had to fly at least a couple dozens meters and the sniper being a continent renowned assassin in all. Shes not a sitting duck without them and its not impossible for her to hit hard throws.

And thats okay, im clarifying here. She probably uses throws to neutralize nonmurdertargets, which Ken isnt so its not going to matter.

On a important note, does Ken have anything that allows him to detect poison? Because his experience against poison users dosnt help much if he dosnt even know that hes squaring up against one

 

[SamanPatou]

She... Is that scan not on her profile? She subconsciously pressurepointed a raging cow whitout even knowing its anatomy. It really dosnt have to be special in order to be a factor lol.

I mean, pressure pointing a cow doesn't mean she can do the same to a human, or with the exact precision in a fight.

What do you mean her IR is closer to general reactions and speed, She didnt even realised she was being attacked by her own chief until she dodged it, her attention was literally away from the attack, its a textbook example of IR. Furthermore you shoudnt forget that the attack was pointblank while she was grinning at flowers like an goof and still managed to dodge that.

Dodging a point-blank attack is less impressive of your speed and reactions are far superior to the attacker's, which I can't tell in this case, but my point is that there's only one showing and the profile doesn't specify its consistency.
I'm not negating her doing that, but at the same time it doesn't seem a factor that grants her a huge attack.

In a skill comparason sure, but in an actual fight? Yor clearly has the ability advantage and Kens skill is not enough to ignore that.

As I said earlier, Ken's not inexperienced when it comes to actual fights. He crossed path with people who didn't fight fair multiple times, his career wasn't only based on professional tournaments. As a fighting game the details are unclear, but the whole plot of the Alpha series is that him and others are journeying the world and opposing Shadaloo and other fighters who don't care about the life of the opponent, and even in professional tournaments, we've got plenty of people who use weapons, shoot fire and electricity and perform maneuvers that would be forbidden in real life. On top of that, Gouken, Ken's master, comes from a tradition of assassins, since their fighting style was based on that (and Akuma practices the most ruthless version of it), he surely has taught Ken about real battles, and the times he was a student are far behind, Ken's got plenty of other experience against all sorts of opponents.
This isn't a case of a real pugilist champion who needs to be careful against a mugger with a knife because that's how the real world works. Ken is also very battle-savvy and can invent new techniques and strategies when facing opponents who can counter him (sourced in his intelligence section).

Yor is a darn good thrower though. The button one is still there, and she nearly nailed a sniper with her throwing weapons, only dodging the attack because her knive had to fly at least a couple dozens meters and the sniper being a continent renowned assassin in all. Shes not a sitting duck without them and its not impossible for her to hit hard throws.

Without them she's going to be in major trouble, tho, because she'd be limited to her physicals, which are lower than Ken's in both potency and LS, and in martial skill alone she seemingly doesn't match Ken.
An exchange of physical blows if definitely going to be bad, the stats difference means she's going to take damage and lose balance even if she blocks, as Ken's attacks hit quite harder than that her dura, would push her much more than she can withstand and can transmits fire all over her body.

On a important note, does Ken have anything that allows him to detect poison? Because his experience against poison users dosnt help much if he dosnt even know that hes squaring up against one

No, but she also didn't know who FANG was when they fought, he hadn't even heard of him before, and still managed to defeat him without being grazed, since a single scratch from his nails either kills you or knocks you out instantly if you resist his poison (obv there are characters in fiction which higher resistance, but I talk about in-verse standards).
And even then, Ken has no reason to lower his guard against an armed opponent, poison or not poison, and he's going to instantly recognize Yor as a killer, and would fight accordingly.
With his mobility, acrobatics and projectiles, Ken shouldn't be in disadvantage at all, and he's got plenty of experience against people who could use ranged attacks.
We don't know if he'd do it, but he could very well start zoning Yor out, and she'd have no answer to that, also because some of Ken's hadokens would light her up like a torch; sure, she can dodge and try to get close, but they seem to be pretty much even in acrobatics and mobility, and Ken's the one who's experienced in fighting with projectiles and facing people who have to circumvent the problem if they don't have anything to throw back.

 

[First_Witch]

I argue a raging cow is far more difficult than a human but thats irrelevant, because she can and has pressurepointed active combatants midfight.

The one she dodged was, again, the chief of Garden and the one who trained Yor in combat iirc. Most definitly not a low level mook. The profile dosn't show consistency because Yor has like 1 in depht combat scene in the entire series. Yor performed her feat against the one character that can arguably kill her.

See, i never implied that at all. I even agree that Ken edges out in skill. What i am saying though, is that Kens skill edge is not enough to matter. Ken fought against a variety of opponents with different weapons and fighting styles? Awesome, Yor did the same. Ken has fought since he was little? Cool, Yor did the same. Ken has keenly honed battlesenses that allow him perceive his enemies even in extreme situation? Great, Yor can too. The difference between them is not big enough that it would nullify every other advantage Yor has.

Having the ranged option to oneshot your opponent with poison is better than not having it. Point being is that Yor can put up a fight in ranged combat if push come to shove

Is FANG's profile outdated? If not then how is this a argument in a speed equal match? Ken is violently faster than FANG going by their profiles, so its no wonder Ken can dodge his attacks perfectly

 

[SamanPatou]

I argue a raging cow is far more difficult than a human but thats irrelevant, because she can and has pressurepointed active combatants midfight.

It's more about knowledge of the human body, for how impressive KOing a cow is, it doesn't mean you can do that in the same way to a human, let alone someone expert in combat.

See, i never implied that at all. I even agree that Ken edges out in skill. What i am saying though, is that Kens skill edge is not enough to matter. Ken fought against a variety of opponents with different weapons and fighting styles? Awesome, Yor did the same. Ken has fought since he was little? Cool, Yor did the same. Ken has keenly honed battlesenses that allow him perceive his enemies even in extreme situation? Great, Yor can too. The difference between them is not big enough that it would nullify every other advantage Yor has.

Alright then, on that I agree.

Having the ranged option to oneshot your opponent with poison is better than not having it. Point being is that Yor can put up a fight in ranged combat if push come to shove.

Well, she's got only two tries, and I doubt she'd even want to lose her stilettos, unless she's really desperate, and the odds of hitting Ken aren't that great, given his agility, senses and experience against projectile users, let alone he can counter a thrown object with his Hadoken.
On the other hand, Ken can keep shooting at her repeteadly for quite awhile.

Is FANG's profile outdated? If not then how is this a argument in a speed equal match? Ken is violently faster than FANG going by their profiles, so its no wonder Ken can dodge his attacks perfectly

It isn't about speed, but more on skill and experience. Ken's faster, yes, but like Ryu he enjoys fighting and learns something from every battle, we can't be sure how much he held back for the pure joy of the fight, but I'd argue he didn't go for a pure speedstomp blitz.

 

[First_Witch]

Alright sure, I can see the logic behind that, but again, Yor has pressurepointed another assassin in head on combat, who was part of the whole "Best Assassins of the continent" group, so that argument is mood.

You tried to discredit Yor's IR via speed though. Moreover, you may argue that Ken didnt speedblitz FANG into oblivion, but you can't argue that Ken's reaction speed dropped to the same level. Even if Ken fought at FANGS speed, he would still view him in slowmotion by virtue of being capable of fighting speed multiple dozen times higher than your opponent. Im sorry but this is simply not a valid skill feat unless Ken can't selfperception manip himself down to FANGs level.

 

[First_Witch]

Like, all in all I don't think Ken is just negating Yor's stuff like that.

Both basically oneshot each other (Ken via AP and combos, Yor via Poison or Pressurepoints)

Both are hard to hit (Ken via skill, Yor via IR)

And both are mobilie close quarter combatants.

I think this is a firm incon

 

[Armorchompy]

Instinctive Reaction doesn't necessarily seem that strong to me, it's just reacting to attacks a little bit quicker which isn't enough vs a skill disadvantage. Is there even a statement on the strength of the poison? It can't be necessarily assumed to be immediately lethal otherwise.

Even if that were the case, I just see Ken landing a KO shot more often, he's got a huge AP advantage so securing a win won't be difficult, he's got a larger and more versatile variety of techniques, better ranged combat and a skill advantage. It's pretty close, but I think he's got better advantages.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I think I'll go Incon FRA based on the arguments everyone had so far.

 

[SamanPatou]

Snip

I wasn't triying to discredit Yor's IR, but just saying it doesn't seem something that carries a whole battle, surely a useful factor, but not like the spider-sense or ultra instinct.

I think this is a firm incon

I think Ken has some more chances to win, because Yor's screwed if she loses her weapons in any way, either because of a hard hit, because of getting blocked and disarmed or just being set on fire.
She's still got her pressure points, yes, but at that point it's a h2h confrontation, and it would be kinda difficult for her to keep up and be the one to land the most effective blow.

 

[First_Witch]

... It absolutly is when said skill difference isnt large enough in the first place. Ken is no skill god and Yor is no amateur.

The Poison is potent enough to kill Elephants.

Like the entire winning argument hinges on Ken outskilling an skilled opponent with IR based on feats that are literally within Yors ballpark. If Ken were skilled to the point that he would toy with Yor then sure, that woudnt be a debate at that point. But that is simply not the case with what i am being provided with.

Like, lets not forget that Yor has undoubtly the far more reliable kill option in melee here, because Ken needs a good hit on Yor to Daigo her to death while Yor literally needs to scratch him with her weapons only.

@SamanPatou
And I never argued that? Im not saying that Yor is going Ultra Instinct on Kens ass, I'm saying that it gives her the same dodge capalities of Ken through skill, ESPECIALLY, in speed equal.

Sure, assuming that Yor would allow that to happen while Ken cleanly evades the other weapon without getting hit.

 

[SamanPatou]

Alright, then Incon's reasonable and I also vote that.

 

[Armorchompy]

The only feat of that instinctive reaction is dodging a straightforward attack with a slight movement, hell it might not even be IR, she could have sensed the air movement or caught the movement with the corner of her eye, I really don't think it's impressive enough to matter in an actual fight outside of dodging one or two hits.

Regardless, incon's fine enough.

 

[First_Witch]

The only feat of that instinctive reaction is dodging a straightforward attack with a slight movement, hell it might not even be IR, she could have sensed the air movement or caught the movement with the corner of her eye, I really don't think it's impressive enough to matter in an actual fight outside of dodging one or two hits.

Okay no, this is getting ridiculous. Are you really insinuating now that her textbook example of IR is invalid because it dosn't look impressive? The entire scan line fulfills our definition of IR to a T:
Her attention was literally somewhere else. Shopkeeper (Who is, for the third time, the chief of Garden. Hes one of the few characters that could actually murder Yor in a straight up fight) shifted her attention somewhere to something else before he attacked her. Her Attention was contextually and visually somewhere else, right before the attack could connect with her face. You can't, in good faith argue that there is enough time to make the conscious decision to dodge in that situation.
Shopkeeper literally says that she dodges that thanks to her instincs, while Yor clearly states that the attack suprised her. Its blatant, like how is this even argueable.

But the thing that annoys me the most and I'm really sorry that it does, is this opening line, like how does this knock on the effectivness of her IR? It dosn't matter how the attack comes in if you don't see the attack coming in the first place. Heck, thrusts are far harder to perceive than swings in the first place. And slight movement? is her IR now worse because she isn't doing flips or spins? Is it suddenly less impressive for a character to do proper dodges now?

Im sorry, I really am, for sounding so rambly right now, but this is just nitpicky