Yogiri's Death Manipulation Removal (technically an upgrade ig)

[SweetDao]

Me when I see the thread's title and want to be unique and goofy, so I bring up the name of the novel.

Anyway, it may look like a pretty impossible case, but those with a bit of savviness would understand everything at the end of this thread. However, everything must have a beginning, and while that beginning will be rather uninteresting for the knowledgeable one, I think it is important to do it so that everyone understand the postulate.

1. Yogiri's power in the present situation.

Let's begin by the most obvious one. Yogiri can kill entities. The people he wishes dead either die instantly or after a bit of time, it's up to him to decide. He can also only kill a portion of a being by making a conscious effort to do so.

It is not limited to only beings, it also includes object, physical phenomena or even abstract relationships.

There are a lot more specificities to it, such as the automatic aspect of his power, alongside the versatility of what he can "kill" but those are of little importance right now.

Due to all of this, we're indexing Yogiri's power as a "very versatile death manipulation" but that's wrong on many levels.

2. Yogiri's power as it should be.

First and foremost, what Yogiri does is erasing someone or something from the Ultimate Ensemble World. Factually. This alone should suffice proving his power isn't death manipulation, but I'm not finished with this, far from it.

Yogiri claimed, at one point, that "he decides what death is". However, this statement is frankly, in and on itself, pretty irrelevant since Yogiri himself doesn't know the extent and mechanism from his power. There is also this statement explaining that "what died and what phenomenon occurred all relied on Yogiri's perception" which is easily explainable by the fact he's quite literally a law of the Ultimate Ensemble World, it's end, and it's limit, a being that helps regulates it. Furthermore, since all the phenomenon shift on the "World" and said "World" can decide, to an absolute degree, how something should behave, it makes even more sense.

Anyway, let's go to the important bits.

When Yogiri's killed UEG, he erased something more important and fundamental than simply her body. This is proven by the fact her body simply fell on the ground after she died instead of just being erased like a normal EE would do. Anyone would, out of necessity, argue that what Yogiri "killed" (Erased) would therefore be something akin to a soul or a mind, which would, as a consequence, render the physical body unusable or, effectively, dead.

They would be right, only for one major details. Yogiri can kill objects without any soul or mind. That goes a long way to show that "killing" something not alive is clearly not "death manipulation" and what Yogiri's is actually doing is an erasure.

He could kill ice magic (or simply ice) but also the petal of a flower or even a lock. There are a lot more examples, but that's the gist of it. Similarly, when he killed the ears and eyes of a beastman, even regenerating them wouldn't bring back the senses connected to these organs. That clearly poses a problem to the theory of Yogiri's killing something akin to the "mind" or "soul" of something/someone. Especially in the case of the beastman, since that would mean he killed the "soul of the beastman ears" ? Yeah, no, that's not the right way to go.

At this point, we're kind of stuck, but don't worry, I have the perfect explanation.

3. Existence.

Raw: 「む。そうですね。いきなりすぎたかもしれません。そうですね。もっと基本的なところからにしましょう。まず大前提としてこの世の中にある全てのものが魔力を持っています。全ての根本なのです。全てのものはその在り方に応じた魔力の形を持っています。例えばこの机は、この机の形になるような魔力をもっているというわけです。これは細かく分割していってもその分割したパーツに応じて魔力を持つことになります。机を分解して、机の天板と足にわけてしまえば、机としての魔力はなくなりますが、天板としての魔力と、足としての魔力を持つことになります。まぁこのまま細かくわけていけば究極的には何もなくなってしまって、その存在そのものの魔力のみが在るということになっていき……」

Translation:

"Hmm. I see. Perhaps that was a bit too sudden. Alright, let's start with something more fundamental.

First and foremost, everything in this world possesses magical power. It is the foundation of all things. Every object has a form of magical power that corresponds to its existence.

For example, this desk possesses magical power that allows it to take the shape of a desk. Even if you break it down into smaller parts, each part will retain its own magical power accordingly. If you were to dismantle the desk and separate the tabletop from the legs, the desk itself would lose its magical power, but the tabletop and legs would then each have their own respective magical power.

If you were to keep breaking it down further and further, ultimately, nothing would remain—only the magical power of the very essence of its existence would be left..."

Magical power is the foundation of all things, it is what defines the existence of an object. Breaking down that object into separate parts would still contain the magical power to define itself as the new objects it has become.

Raw :

人間は魔力を使えないんですよね？　魔力はなんのためにあるんですか？」「そうだな。魔力と言ってしまうと特別な力だと思ってしまうかもしれないが、魔力はどんなものにでも存在するんだ。存在力とでも言えばいいのか。その存在をそうたらしめている本質の力とでもいうのか。アルくんにはアルくんをアルくんとして存在させるための魔力が、リーリアちゃんにもリーリアちゃんの魔力がある。さて、魔法を使えば魔力が失われる。その結果どうなるのか？　簡単に言えば薄くなる」

Translation :

"Humans can't use magic power, right? Then what is magic power for?"

"Well, that's a good question. When you hear 'magic power,' you might think of it as some kind of special ability, but in reality, magic power exists in everything. You could call it 'existence energy' or perhaps 'the essential force that defines something as what it is.'

Al-kun has the magic power that allows him to exist as Al-kun, and Lilia-chan has her own magic power as well.

Now, when magic is used, magic power is lost. And what happens as a result? Simply put, it becomes thinner."

It extends to individuals too, being "the essential force that defines something as what it is". Al possessing the magic power that defines him as "Al" and same with Lilia.

Raw :

「ふむ。アルくんの話が本当なら、元に戻るというのは骸に戻るということだが……そうだな。魔法の説明の時に言ったが、全てのものには魔力が存在する。それが存在を確定させているわけだが今のリーリアちゃんは『リーリアという存在』の魔力が失われた状態だな。そして『アルくんが操作するリーリアという存在』の魔力で生きていることになる。これを何とか『リーリアの存在』として定着させることができればあるいは……とは思うがその方法は見当もつかないな」

Translation :

"Hmm. If what Al-kun is saying is true, then 'returning to normal' would mean returning to a corpse...

Well, as I mentioned when explaining magic, everything possesses magical power, and that power is what defines its existence. Right now, Lilia-chan has lost the magical power that establishes her as 'the existence of Lilia.' Instead, she is alive through the magical power of 'Lilia as an existence controlled by Al-kun.'

If there were some way to firmly reestablish her as 'the existence of Lilia' once more, then perhaps... But I have no idea how that could be done."

Lilia, who died from a fall, lost her magical power, what defined her as Lilia upon her death. However, Al has the power of bringing back the dead, therefore, even if Lilia is still technically a corpse, she's now "an existence controlled by Al", replacing her original magical power.

TLDR : Magical power is what defines everything in existence, described as an essential force that defines everything, object or people alike. Dividing an object or a person into smaller parts would still make it so all the parts contain some magical power that defines it's existence.

4. Finality.
In simple terms, what Yogiri does is erasing the magical power of a being or an object, be it partially or completely. As a consequence, everything conditioned by that magical power would stop functioning and/or existing. Erasing the magical power of a person would result in said person losing its mind and life (physical body) without actually "directly" interfering with those two aspects.

To prove this, here's what Ultimate God explains to a new V-Road God:

Raw :

できないと思ってるのかって？ 思ってるよ。結果として君という存在が〝世界〟から排除されることになると思ってる。

MTL :

You’re asking if I think you can’t do it? Yeah, I do. I think, in the end, your existence will be erased from the "world".

Official translation (being shit again) :

I think you can’t? Of course. In the end you’ll be erased, just like everyone else.

The important part is the "君という存在" which from what I understood means "your existence" basically. Which again, makes sense with what I explained above.

I could bring up the fact that UEG was also stated to have "erased the existence of someone", however, it's not as big of a deal as one could think. What UEG does is the opposite of what Yogiri's can do. Instead of being able to "directly kill the source", she kills what the source is linked to, making it disappear as a result. For a human being (that's not the case here), they can't do anything when they die and will inevitably lose their magical power, however, some people with a strong willpower like Momoko can maintain some degree of existence as a ghost after death.

However, Gods absolutely can't destroy completely another god. No one, except Yogiri and perhaps Paella, can do such a feat, and it's thanks to their special status (Yogiri being a rule of the verse and Paella being Paella).

To summarize the process:

Human : Body < Mind/Soul < Existence
Ghost/Divine Spirit : Spiritual Body < Mind/Soul < Existence
Gods : Body < Mind/Soul < Existence.

The bolded part is the exact aspect that, upon erasure or death, collapses the rest. As you can see, beside the case concerning a regular human, the rest is overall not worth mentioning. It is to be noted that Gods come back after death or erasure thanks to their soul/mind and not thanks to their existence. Strong enough Gods like UEG can however come back directly after the death of the body, compared to lower-level Gods.

Similarly, when UEG died, it was stated that she started losing "her sense of self":

Raw:

ＵＥＧは己の形を失い、自分が何者なのかもわからなくなり、やがて闇に消えていった。

Official Translation:

Losing her form, losing her sense of self, the UEG finally vanished into the empty blackness.

I could also mention the case with Hanakawa, but I think it's fine with just this.

I think that should be enough proof to show that what Yogiri is doing is more akin to an Unconventional Existence Erasure rather than Death Manipulation. Alternatively we could also call it "Magical Power Erasure" or whatever fits the bill.

Some people also explained to me that "Magical Power" could be some type of concepts, be it 2 or 1, I'm not too knowledgeable so I'll let people decide if it fits one or the other.

Agree : Dark_Soul20189 (Fundamental aspect but not quite CM, is fine with CM2), BestMGQScalerEver (fine with MP being CM1), Voidnether, BoastJr, Grabbing_dragon (fine with MP being CM2), Korf3ll, Ovy7, Ihsjihahxu (Fine with MP being CM2), TWILIGHT-OP (Fine with OP and CM2), ashen (Fine with OP and CM2), Ruphas_Mafahl123, The_golden_and_silver_house94, IvarUHQ, ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn, Kavliaris (fine with CM2), KingNanaya, sukuna171 (fine with EE), Robo432343, ActuallySpaceMan42 (Fine with EE and CM2), LiewtiStar, Theglassman12

Disagree :

Neutral : RitsuØ1

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

As we have discussed everything looks good, I agree.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Magic Power seems to blatantly be conceptual manipulation.

For example, this desk possesses magical power that allows it to take the shape of a desk. Even if you break it down into smaller parts, each part will retain its own magical power accordingly. If you were to dismantle the desk and separate the tabletop from the legs, the desk itself would lose its magical power, but the tabletop and legs would then each have their own respective magical power.

If you were to keep breaking it down further and further, ultimately, nothing would remain—only the magical power of the very essence of its existence would be left..."

This part leads me to think it could be type 1 since magical power can exist independently of what it makes up as well.

 

[Voidnether]

I agree with the thread since we had a discussion about this previously, still unsure about any forms of Conceptual Manipulation though since MP there is similar to a life force of someone — Erasing someone's existence means erasing one's life force, thus their mind, soul are erased while keeping the body intact (iirc). I don't see how this is conceptual in nature just because it makes up someone's existence.

 

[SweetDao]

I agree with the thread since we had a discussion about this previously, still unsure about any forms of Conceptual Manipulation though since MP there is similar to a life force of someone — Erasing someone's existence means erasing one's life force, thus their mind, soul are erased while keeping the body intact (iirc). I don't see how this is conceptual in nature just because it makes up someone's existence.

I think the biggest "argument" for it, is the fact that even if you remove everything that compose an object, for example a table, the magical power of its existence would still remain as the "fundamental aspect" defining it as such. That's what MGQscaler pointed out.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I agree with the thread since we had a discussion about this previously, still unsure about any forms of Conceptual Manipulation though since MP there is similar to a life force of someone — Erasing someone's existence means erasing one's life force, thus their mind, soul are erased while keeping the body intact (iirc). I don't see how this is conceptual in nature just because it makes up someone's existence.

"Well, that's a good question. When you hear 'magic power,' you might think of it as some kind of special ability, but in reality, magic power exists in everything. You could call it 'existence energy' or perhaps 'the essential force that defines something as what it is.'

This part is pretty much undeniably CM. It's 100% defining what a concept actually is.

 

[Voidnether]

I think the biggest "argument" for it, is the fact that even if you remove everything that compose an object, for example a table, the magical power of its existence would still remain as the "fundamental aspect" defining it as such. That's what MGQscaler pointed out.

I see it as immortality ngl, no matter how much it's skinned off — As long as it's not related to magical power then they're still able to maintain their existence.

 

[SweetDao]

I see it as immortality ngl, no matter how much it's skinned off — As long as it's not related to magical power then they're still able to maintain their existence.

Yes, but an object only has two aspect. The physical one (atoms, components, ...) and the Magical one. If you remove EVERYTHING from the physical aspect, the only thing that would remain will be the magical aspect of their existence. This is like a character getting wiped from reality, but still existing as its conceptual self and thus can come back/ressurect or some things.

 

[BoastJr]

This part is pretty much undeniably CM. It's pretty much 100% defining what a concept actually is.

I seen enough. Goku is Better

Snip

I agree (I maybe ddm coded)

 

[Voidnether]

Yes, but an object only has two aspect. The physical one (atoms, components, ...) and the Magical one. If you remove EVERYTHING from the physical aspect, the only thing that would remain will be the magical aspect of their existence. This is like a character getting wiped from reality, but still existing as its conceptual self and thus can come back/ressurect or some things.

Yeah, that's just incorporeality assuming their existence "could" exist even if all of their physical aspects are removed — I was inclined to say this fits atleast low-godly regeneration but that's definitely not the case since there's no implication that their physical aspects could regenerate as long as their magical power is intact, that aside however: CM1 here is only valid if those same "physical aspects" are treated as the one that makes up reality themselves (that's consisted of metaphysical aspects, obviously) and when they're removed — MP still exists, that would be sufficient but if it's not like that then I'm unsure. You could try with a possibly rating for it but I doubt it ngl..

 

[SweetDao]

Yeah, that's just incorporeality assuming their existence "could" exist even if all of their physical aspects are removed — I was inclined to say this fits atleast low-godly regeneration but that's definitely not the case since there's no implication that their physical aspects could regenerate as long as their magical power is intact, that aside however: CM1 here is only valid if those same "physical aspects" are treated as the one that makes up reality themselves (that's consisted of metaphysical aspects, obviously) and when they're removed — MP still exists, that would be sufficient but if it's not like that then I'm unsure. You could try with a possibly rating for it but I doubt it ngl..

I'll see what others have to say

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Don't think there's anything else to call it but conceptual manipulation. Especially how it's even 1:1 with the wikipedia page for essence.

This is infinitely more straightforward than something just being called a concept without elaboration on what a concept is in the verse.

 

[Voidnether]

Don't think there's anything else to call it but conceptual manipulation. Especially how it's even 1:1 with the wikipedia page for essence.

This is infinitely more straightforward than something just being called a concept without elaboration on what a concept is in the verse.

I could see Type 2 (or Type 3 if they just make up someone's existence, instead of being related to reality themselves), but Type 1 definitely isn't except if those physical aspects are already Type 2 in the first place then that could work.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I could see Type 2, but Type 1 definitely isn't except if those physical aspects are already Type 2 in the first place then that could work.

I mean still seems to be type 1 since magic power remains. The whole table analogy isn't saying the very concept of table is gone if you deconstruct it but instead it loses the magic power of a table because it can no longer be defined as a table (ceases to fall under the concept but the concept itself doesnt cease), with magic power (concept-stuff) in it's purest being independent from whatever it makes up.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Agree with everything, and CM 1 as well, since the concept page only states that concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern. Basically, they only need to be independent of their particulars to qualify as CM 1.

Don't think there's anything else to call it but conceptual manipulation. Especially how it's even 1:1 with the wikipedia page for essence.

This is infinitely more straightforward than something just being called a concept without elaboration on what a concept is in the verse.

It goes both ways, but mostly, it is the essence that would not qualify as a concept 99% of the time without the context of behaving like universals.

 

[SweetDao]

Agree with everything, and CM 1 as well, since the concept page only states that concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern. Basically, they only need to be independent of their particulars to qualify as CM 1.

Wouldn't that pose a problem if a human dies (from a fall for example) and their mind/soul + MP goes away with it?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Wouldn't that pose a problem if a human dies (from a fall for example) and their mind/soul + MP goes away with it?

from examples it seems to be established that magic power still exists regardless but the altered thing would no longer fall under the category of what makes it the thing so it ends up a completely different being "losing" the magic power of that category.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I will say this, It definitely is not Type 1 CM.

 

[Voidnether]

I mean still seems to be type 1 since magic power remains. The whole table analogy isn't saying the very concept of table is gone if you deconstruct it but instead it loses the magic power of a table because it can no longer be defined as a table, with magic power (concept-stuff) in it's purest being independent from whatever it makes up.

That's just the highest interpretation, ngl.
(Type 1 works, really if they're truly independent from whatever it makes up and it is not limited to existence).

Agree with everything, and CM 1 as well, since the concept page only states that concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern. Basically, they only need to be independent of their particulars to qualify as CM 1.

I see concepts that are completely independent there as in, if there's CM2 and this particular concept is independent from it, then that's CM1 (Hence why, the "part" of reality, if it's reality themselves then that would mean that they're completely independent from metaphysical aspects, too).

It goes both ways, but mostly, it is the essence that would not qualify as a concept 99% of the time without the context of behaving like universals.

Tbh, in this case I think you could see the merit for Type 3 at the least.

 

[Korf3ll]

I agree with this CRT

 

[SweetDao]

from examples it seems to be established that magic power still exists regardless but the altered thing would no longer fall under the category of what makes it the thing so it ends up a completely different being "losing" the magic power of that category.

In the case of Lila, it completely disappeared.

Well, as I mentioned when explaining magic, everything possesses magical power, and that power is what defines its existence. Right now, Lilia-chan has lost the magical power that establishes her as 'the existence of Lilia.' Instead, she is alive through the magical power of 'Lilia as an existence controlled by Al-kun.

She was completely dead before Al decided to resurrect her due to his magic. As explained, she had NO magical power anymore, but now she's sustained thanks to the link she has with Al.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

In the case of Lila, it completely disappeared.

She was completely dead before Al decided to resurrect her due to his magic. As explained, she had NO magical power anymore, but now she's sustained thanks to the link she has with Al.

Ok but it doesn't conflict with this where the raw magic power exists regardless even if it's no longer part of a beings existence.

"Hmm. I see. Perhaps that was a bit too sudden. Alright, let's start with something more fundamental.

First and foremost, everything in this world possesses magical power. It is the foundation of all things. Every object has a form of magical power that corresponds to its existence.

For example, this desk possesses magical power that allows it to take the shape of a desk. Even if you break it down into smaller parts, each part will retain its own magical power accordingly. If you were to dismantle the desk and separate the tabletop from the legs, the desk itself would lose its magical power, but the tabletop and legs would then each have their own respective magical power.

If you were to keep breaking it down further and further, ultimately, nothing would remain—only the magical power of the very essence of its existence would be left..."

 

[SweetDao]

Ok but it doesn't conflict with this where the raw magic power exists regardless even if it's no longer part of a beings existence.

Yeah, unless the person die ig? Or maybe that only works regarding object? I suppose the death of the body and the mind makes the MP disappear as a result, EVEN IF OTHERWISE the MP would still retain its existence? Weird. Unless you're arguing just that the magical power that was "attached" to a person just goes away upon death, but still technically exist somewhere. (Not dumb at all, but I'm not terribly convinced either, it would explain some stuff thought)

 

[Ovy7]

The OP seems fine.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Yeah, unless the person die ig? Or maybe that only works regarding object? I suppose the death of the body and the mind makes the MP disappear as a result, EVEN IF OTHERWISE the MP would still retain its existence? Weird. Unless you're arguing just that the magical power that was "attached" to a person just goes away upon death, but still technically exist somewhere. (Not dumb at all, but I'm not terribly convinced either, it would explain some stuff thought)

It does seem pretty clear with the example I gave above. Like the verse very explicitly establishes what magic power being "lost" means. It just means it could no longer be defined as that thing thus no longer having the magical power of that thing, but magical power itself still persisting even if there's nothing.

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

I agree with Cm2

Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.

As we can see

For example, this desk possesses magical power that allows it to take the shape of a desk. Even if you break it down into smaller parts, each part will retain its own magical power accordingly. If you were to dismantle the desk and separate the tabletop from the legs, the desk itself would lose its magical power, but the tabletop and legs would then each have their own respective magical power.

If you were to keep breaking it down further and further, ultimately, nothing would remain—only the magical power of the very essence of its existence would be left..."

Desk = concept, Tabletop and legs = object of desk

1.The desk exists because its components (tabletop + legs) come together to form it.

If the components are separated, the desk as a "desk" loses its magical power, but the individual parts still retain their own magical power.

This matches the description of Dependent Concepts, which states that “if all objects of a concept are destroyed, the concept itself will cease to exist, but it can be restored by recreating the objects.”

And

2. If the desk is broken down further and further, eventually, nothing will remain except for "the magical power of the very essence of its existence."

This resembles the case where destroying all objects of a concept leads to the disappearance of the concept itself.

That's Cm2

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

I am going to be honest here. I fully believe it's a metaphysical aspect, but I don't think it fits any of the currently existing ones perfectly. Basically, I see it as life essence or "chi," but it would still be within the range of the current description of CM 2 from my understanding to treat it as such.

 

[TWILIGHT-OP]

Op looks good and fine with Type 2.

 

[ashen]

Magical power is the foundation of all things, it is what defines the existence of an object. Breaking down that object into separate parts would still contain the magical power to define itself as the new objects it has become.

It extends to individuals too, being "the essential force that defines something as what it is". Al possessing the magic power that defines him as "Al" and same with Lilia.

Lilia, who died from a fall, lost her magical power, what defined her as Lilia upon her death. However, Al has the power of bringing back the dead, therefore, even if Lilia is still technically a corpse, she's now "an existence controlled by Al", replacing her original magical power.

TLDR : Magical power is what defines everything in existence, described as an essential force that defines everything, object or people alike. Dividing an object or a person into smaller parts would still make it so all the parts contain some magical power that defines it's existence.

For those scans only, it seems pretty clear the MP (magical power) is at least some sort of metaphysical aspect.
We can even think that it could be some sort of type 1 concept due to the fact that even when you break down a table until Nothing remains :

Translation:

"Hmm. I see. Perhaps that was a bit too sudden. Alright, let's start with something more fundamental.

First and foremost, everything in this world possesses magical power. It is the foundation of all things. Every object has a form of magical power that corresponds to its existence.

For example, this desk possesses magical power that allows it to take the shape of a desk. Even if you break it down into smaller parts, each part will retain its own magical power accordingly. If you were to dismantle the desk and separate the tabletop from the legs, the desk itself would lose its magical power, but the tabletop and legs would then each have their own respective magical power.

If you were to keep breaking it down further and further, ultimately, nothing would remain—only the magical power of the very essence of its existence would be left..."

however if I remember correctly MP could be affected by the « perception » of someone exemple : the simple fact of recognizing an attacks as powerful will make it more powerful.

this would actually pose problems with it being a Type 1 concept knowing that the soul, is the source of consciousness is also technically an « object » of MP as proven above by @SweetDao scans.

So since the act of recognition come from consciousness at the very base who is the soul, that would mean MP is getting affected by one of its object.

So it would most likely be type 2 concept UNTIL we prove that the very act of recognition is originating from pure MP itself rather than the consciousness/soul.

Ps : I assumed that the act of recognition come from the soul since it is consciousness by definition, and as far as I am aware you need a form of consciousness to recognize something as « powerful ». If there is other scans saying consciousness actually emerges from MP directly it could be a type 1.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Damn Dao, Damn....ngl, when you want something out, you are very vehemential about it, you don't stop till you get the deired result.
Ngl, normally I would disagree with removing Death manipulation completely (The verse itself and the hax are called Instant Death).

But the arguments here are compelling.

Btw, I agree with CM type 2

 

[SweetDao]

Damn Dao, Damn....ngl, when you want something out, you are very vehemential about it, you don't stop till you get the deired result.

I'm sorry pookie... I'll do good next time

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I'm sorry pookie... I'll do good next time

You better do my guy, you better do...

Nah, jk. The CRT is fine and I agree, altho the thing being cm type 1 or 2 seems to be the only contentious thing here ig

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Change my vote to CM 2, since only one scan supports CM 1, while there are many others that speak against it.

Wouldn't that pose a problem if a human dies (from a fall for example) and their mind/soul + MP goes away with it?

LMAO

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Agreed ,neutral on CM

 

[IvarUHQ]

Very good works I agree!

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I have a question, couldn't he still qualify for Death Manipulation and Existence Erasure via Concept Manipulation?

I don't know anything about Instant Death, so I could be wrong, but I read the OP, and I thought of this.

 

[SweetDao]

I have a question, couldn't he still qualify for Death Manipulation and Existence Erasure via Concept Manipulation?

Well, existence erasure is a given (although whatever the naming will be, ultimately, it's an EE) but I don't think Death Manipulation would be a thing. If you erase the concept of someone, hence making them die, you wouldn't get "death manipulation" because of the consequences of your EE, you know?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Well, existence erasure is a given (although whatever the naming will be, ultimately, it's an EE) but I don't think Death Manipulation would be a thing. If you erase the concept of someone, hence making them die, you wouldn't get "death manipulation" because of the consequences of your EE, you know?

Some of the quotes still kind of sound like Death Manipulation to me, but fair enough.

 

[Kavliaris]

It is not limited to only beings, it also includes object, physical phenomena or even abstract relationships.

He could kill ice magic (or simply ice) but also the petal of a flower or even a lock. There are a lot more examples, but that's the gist of it. Similarly, when he killed the ears and eyes of a beastman, even regenerating them wouldn't bring back the senses connected to these organs. That clearly poses a problem to the theory of Yogiri's killing something akin to the "mind" or "soul" of something/someone. Especially in the case of the beastman, since that would mean he killed the "soul of the beastman ears" ? Yeah, no, that's not the right way to go.

if it include object, force, function and abstract relationship
Concept type 2 seems justified

 

[RitsuØ1]

Instant Death
No Death Manipulation

Hmm… Sus. Either way, I am neutral.