Yogiri Ac4 Higher degree possibly 5????

[Ihsjihahxu]

As you know, Yogiri is the absolute law, that is death.

entirely imperceptible, and it knew no way of freeing itself from it. That
absolute absurdity somehow transcended cause and effect. Even going back
in time couldn’t overturn its fated end.
The Foundation Eater abandoned its human body. Leaving the emperor of
Arganda where it sat, it retreated to its original form beyond the Celestial
Foundation.

In Volume 3, it is explained that Yogiri's death transcends cause and effect.

From the beginning, it was supposed to be impossible to destroy Ishtar's body itself. The gods were protected by an eternal power. No attack should have been able to inflict even a scratch upon her. Yet, the Great Demon King flatly ignored this fact and delivered her strikes.

"That sort of thing is just a marking. Since the rules only said it 'cannot be destroyed', so there's no need for me to abide by them."

"It can't be...... the principles of the 'world' are absolute......"

"How should I express it......? It's impossible for you to beat me so long as you are trapped in that 'world'. I just don't think you can win against me, let alone a middle echelon of the Demon World, you know?"

Ishtar became speechless.

All phenomena are shifting on the "world".

For that reason, if something is recognized by the "world" as constant, there would be no method to reverse it. Such is the basic premise and the law of the "world".
Yet this Great Demon King was exercising her impact without the need of going through the "world".

The Demon King is Unbeatable

The true form of Yogiri is the law of death and existence, which is also the law of the Ensemble World.

it is it. It's probably been around since the very beginning of the Ensemble World. It's one of the rules governing the Ensemble World's creation and a being that helps regulate it. It's the Ensemble World's limit, its end, and a stopper for it.

From The Demon King is Unbeatable, it has been proven that the laws of the world are absolute and unchangeable, in accordance with the law of identity that A is A, and A cannot be anything else.

Yogiri’s true form is a being that transcends cause and effect, for his true form is the absolute and immutable law of Death itself., Moreover it is also the fundamental law that governs all existence the Ensemble World.
Thus, Yogiri’s very being is something that transcends causality and can never be changed

Acauality Type 4 Higher degree Possible 5???
And one layer of Law Manipulation

Agree : @SweetDao ( one layer of Law Mani)

Disagree : @SweetDao ( Ac4 Higher degree possibly 5)

Neutral:

 

[SweetDao]

I don't think the first scan is truly about him "being above cause and effect", it's more of a way to say that even turning back time wouldn't reset the fact that Yogiri wants you dead. In fact, the CFE tried to turn back time to "avoid" what triggered the "cause of his death in ten seconds", but it didn't work, because while time turned back within the CF, it didn't affect the Ensemble World as a whole.

It's a bit like what happened with Darian, Yogiri was "unable to perceive Darian" (due to the Pseudo-Timestop) yet, his "true form" could still do stuff to Darian.

I don't think you can get acausality, be it 4 or 5, because Yogiri doesn't operate on another system of causality or transcend the system of causality within the verse. At most, you could maybe argue for one layer of Law Manip perhaps ?

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

I don't think the first scan is truly about him "being above cause and effect", it's more of a way to say that even turning back time wouldn't reset the fact that Yogiri wants you dead. In fact, the CFE tried to turn back time to "avoid" what triggered the "cause of his death in ten seconds", but it didn't work

The CFE went back in time to a point before the cause of the effect was activated, in order to eliminate the cause and prevent the effect from occurring.
However, in the end, death still worked even without cause and effect, because it doesn’t operate under the system of causality to begin with
you understand that, right?
The CFE created the cause by wanting to kill Yogiri, which triggered the effect of death.
But then, the CFE chose to go back in time to a moment before the cause existed around 10 to 15 seconds earlier.
After going back, there should have been no cause, and without a cause, there should be no effect. Yet in the end, death still worked, because it does not function under cause and effect. Death itself operates beyond causality.

it didn't affect the Ensemble World as a whole.

In the part about Ensemble World, I just used the example that the law of the world is absolute and unchangeable.

 

[SweetDao]

The CFE went back in time to a point before the cause of the effect was activated, in order to eliminate the cause and prevent the effect from occurring.
However, in the end, death still worked even without cause and effect, because it doesn’t operate under the system of causality to begin with
you understand that, right?
The CFE created the cause by wanting to kill Yogiri, which triggered the effect of death.
But then, the CFE chose to go back in time to a moment before the cause existed around 10 to 15 seconds earlier.
After going back, there should have been no cause, and without a cause, there should be no effect. Yet in the end, death still worked, because it does not function under cause and effect. Death itself operates beyond causality.

That would be the case if rewinding time affected everything, but since it was only effective within the CF, it doesn't hold much credit imo.

Also, I wonder if the "cause" was really just thinking of killing him or just the giga-blast he wanted to do from outside the CF tbf...

It still function under cause and effect, just that, from the point of view of the CFE, it didn't make any sense. Yogiri still said "die" and the CF still died ultimately.

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

That would be the case if rewinding time affected everything, but since it was only effective within the CF, it doesn't hold much credit imo.

Also, I wonder if the "cause" was really just thinking of killing him or just the giga-blast he wanted to do from outside the CF tbf...

It still function under cause and effect, just that, from the point of view of the CFE, it didn't make any sense. Yogiri still said "die" and the CF still died ultimately.

I don’t think it was still operating under cause and effect, because once the cause of the effect disappeared, the effect should have vanished as well.
Yet in the end, death continued to count down.
At that moment, when the CFE escaped into its true form and began devouring the world, Yogiri had to make a decision he had to kill himself.
Otherwise, he too would perish once the CFE consumed the Celestial Foundatio

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

you could maybe argue for one layer of Law Manip perhaps

I might add it in (and have already added it, would you agree for 1 layer of Law mani)?

 

[SweetDao]

I don’t think it was still operating under cause and effect, because once the cause of the effect disappeared, the effect should have vanished as well.
Yet in the end, death continued to count down.
At that moment, when the CFE escaped into its true form and began devouring the world, Yogiri had to make a decision he had to kill himself.
Otherwise, he too would perish once the CFE consumed the Celestial Foundatio

Well, here's the scene

1 : CFE sees Yogiri and imagines how he could kill him and Tomochika
2 : CFE realized he only had 10 seconds left to live
3 : CFE decides to rewind the time to before he thought of killing Yogiri so that the reason for "why he would die in ten seconds" disappears
4 : CFE rewind to 15 seconds (so 5 seconds before what caused his death in the following 10 seconds), but he still foresaw his death
5 : CFE doesn't know what to do anymore and leaves his avatar to regain his true form outside the CF
6 : CFE is angry and wants to blast away the CF
7 : At the same time that the countdown of "10 seconds" finishes, Yogiri says die and CFE dies instantly.

Imo, you can see the same in two different ways.

Option 1 : It was indeed the "thought" of killing Yogiri that triggered his death sentence (but that wouldn't explain why he still has "somehow 10 seconds" to live) since it weirdly coincides with the laser beam).
Option 2 : It was not necessarily the "thought' of killing Yogiri that triggered the death in the future, but more so the "will" to kill him, which (in the near future) would make him try to delete the CF with his laser.

Since we know that Yogiri's power isn't technically speaking "killing everything that harbors hostile intent" but more so "what makes him unable to live as a human", I would personally feel like the second option is more probable. Granted, the scene is quite confusing and oddly laid out. To continue arguing on that side, we know that when he was a child, he was caught in a fake world by the Fox Lady to avoid complications, and he didn't mind that treatment because it didn't affect his ability to live as a human.

 

[SweetDao]

I might add it in (and have already added it, would you agree for 1 layer of Law mani)?

I think it should be fine. We would need to lay out the reasoning, but I think it's doable yeah. I would need to check all the iterations of law manip in the verse to be sure, tho.

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

Well, here's the scene

1 : CFE sees Yogiri and imagines how he could kill him and Tomochika
2 : CFE realized he only had 10 seconds left to live
3 : CFE decides to rewind the time to before he thought of killing Yogiri so that the reason for "why he would die in ten seconds" disappears
4 : CFE rewind to 15 seconds (so 5 seconds before what caused his death in the following 10 seconds), but he still foresaw his death
5 : CFE doesn't know what to do anymore and leaves his avatar to regain his true form outside the CF
6 : CFE is angry and wants to blast away the CF
7 : At the same time that the countdown of "10 seconds" finishes, Yogiri says die and CFE dies instantly.

Imo, you can see the same in two different ways.

Option 1 : It was indeed the "thought" of killing Yogiri that triggered his death sentence (but that wouldn't explain why he still has "somehow 10 seconds" to live) since it weirdly coincides with the laser beam).
Option 2 : It was not necessarily the "thought' of killing Yogiri that triggered the death in the future, but more so the "will" to kill him, which (in the near future) would make him try to delete the CF with his laser.

Since we know that Yogiri's power isn't technically speaking "killing everything that harbors hostile intent" but more so "what makes him unable to live as a human", I would personally feel like the second option is more probable. Granted, the scene is quite confusing and oddly laid out. To continue arguing on that side, we know that when he was a child, he was caught in a fake world by the Fox Lady to avoid complications, and he didn't mind that treatment because it didn't affect his ability to live as a human.

So you mean you disagree, Right? Okay, I was just trying to see if it would work. I just happened to see other characters with similar cases.
It’s an absolute and unchangeable law.

This is my opinion
In your second option, it actually makes quite a bit of sense, but I don’t think it negates the idea of death existing outside cause and effect.

Ithink it works with both options, because the way Yogiri’s death initially functions is tied to imagination—how one would kill Yogiri—and fate starts counting down. After rewinding 15 seconds before the event that caused the effect, CFE realizes that he hasn’t escaped the fate of death.

“Absolute absurdity somehow transcended cause and effect. Even going back in time couldn’t overturn its fated end.”

Andonce he realizes that, he thinks that if he’s going to die anyway, he might as well destroy the world. That’s why he decides to consume the world. The fact that he thinks about annihilating Yogiri’s humanity is the reason Yogiri chooses to execute him himself.
I think it should be like this:
In the case of the first option, it works like this:
1 : CFE’s avatar intends to kill Yogiri.
2 : This creates a small “time frame of fate” that counts down.
3 : Even after rewinding time to before the event, the effect is gone but the fate of death still continues to count down.,

Then in the second option:
4 : CFE abandons his avatar and returns to his true form.
5 : He consumes the world.
6 : Yogiri then chooses to kill him himself.

---

In my view:
1 : Death creates a “small fate time frame” (the countdown) from thoughts, imagination, or anything not yet carried out.
2 : Death strikes immediately when someone is about to actually kill Yogiri like the true form case, or when trying to destroy human life.
Yogiri’s death should work this way. But it seems like I’ve forgotten something. If I remember what it is, I’ll add it.

Andregarding Law Mani at first, I didn’t even think about it, so I don’t know how to explain it yet.

 

[SweetDao]

So you mean you disagree, Right? Okay, I was just trying to see if it would work. I just happened to see other characters with similar cases.
It’s an absolute and unchangeable law.

This is my opinion
In your second option, it actually makes quite a bit of sense, but I don’t think it negates the idea of death existing outside cause and effect.

Ithink it works with both options, because the way Yogiri’s death initially functions is tied to imagination—how one would kill Yogiri—and fate starts counting down. After rewinding 15 seconds before the event that caused the effect, CFE realizes that he hasn’t escaped the fate of death.

Well, personally I feel like it's more so linked with the fact his law is impossible to counter and above the rest. Like, if the CFE fled to another universe he would've still got killed regardless, it's like a "lock-on" feature.

1 : CFE’s avatar intends to kill Yogiri.
2 : This creates a small “time frame of fate” that counts down.
3 : Even after rewinding time to before the event, the effect is gone but the fate of death still continues to count down.,

The issue here is that, from the perspective of his true form, he's unaffected by the rewind. If someone in another universe knows you did something, it's not because you rewind your own universe's time that it would make them forget what you did. So for a Law that is absolute and encompassing everything that exist, a mere time rewind of a single small world wouldn't affect it. (This is also why even Darian gets still "locked-on" by the true form despite changing timeline/going to the past).

1 : CFE’s avatar intends to kill Yogiri.
2 : This creates a small “time frame of fate” that counts down.
3 : Even after rewinding time to before the event, the effect is gone but the fate of death still continues to count down.,

The issue with this is that we know that the "moment he dies" is when Yogiri actively kills him moments before he unleashes his laser beam, so it would mean Yogiri only "killed him" due to that specific attack.

4 : CFE abandons his avatar and returns to his true form.
5 : He consumes the world.
6 : Yogiri then chooses to kill him himself.

Personally, this option makes more sense. I think that since the CFE is capable of meddling with time (seeing the future, rewinding past...) he foresaw his death due to his choice of killing Yogiri (which ends up with his true form trying to blow away the CF). What killed him isn't necessarily the "killing intent" he had, but specifically the wish to cause trouble to Yogiri (and the acts that follows). If I'm not wrong, there is one or more instances in the novel of characters giving up on damaging Yogiri and not getting killed despite their initial behavior being "harmful" to him.

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

Well, personally I feel like it's more so linked with the fact his law is impossible to counter and above the rest. Like, if the CFE fled to another universe he would've still got killed regardless, it's like a "lock-on" feature.

The issue here is that, from the perspective of his true form, he's unaffected by the rewind. If someone in another universe knows you did something, it's not because you rewind your own universe's time that it would make them forget what you did. So for a Law that is absolute and encompassing everything that exist, a mere time rewind of a single small world wouldn't affect it. (This is also why even Darian gets still "locked-on" by the true form despite changing timeline/going to the past).



The issue with this is that we know that the "moment he dies" is when Yogiri actively kills him moments before he unleashes his laser beam, so it would mean Yogiri only "killed him" due to that specific attack.



Personally, this option makes more sense. I think that since the CFE is capable of meddling with time (seeing the future, rewinding past...) he foresaw his death due to his choice of killing Yogiri (which ends up with his true form trying to blow away the CF). What killed him isn't necessarily the "killing intent" he had, but specifically the wish to cause trouble to Yogiri (and the acts that follows). If I'm not wrong, there is one or more instances in the novel of characters giving up on damaging Yogiri and not getting killed despite their initial behavior being "harmful" to him.

Okay, I have no reason to argue anymore. This thread is just my attempt to reason this out, but it's a bit too vague.

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

Well, personally I feel like it's more so linked with the fact his law is impossible to counter and above the rest

But gods of laws of the Ensemble World exist, they cannot be changed.

But I'm just saying this, nothing special.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

As you know, Yogiri is the absolute law, that is death.

In Volume 3, it is explained that Yogiri's death transcends cause and effect.

I don't think this refers to transcending cause and effect entirely as a concept, but rather to the idea that even going back in time doesn’t negate what he does in the future. It’s like, even after rewinding time, you would still be affected by causes that yet to happen in the future. That alone wouldn’t qualify as acausality; it might be just 4D range instead Imo.

But after seeing @SweetDao's post, I think the second option makes more sense.

The Demon King is Unbeatable

The true form of Yogiri is the law of death and existence, which is also the law of the Ensemble World.

This seems more like layers. Yogiri is the ultimate law , absolute and unchangeable, something no one can defy. It appears to be a higher form of law that even law manipulators can’t affect or defy. Yeah, I share the same opinion as Dao.

So yeah, I disagree overall, but I agree with the idea of 1-layer law manipulation.

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

If I'm not wrong, there is one or more instances in the novel of characters giving up on damaging Yogiri and not getting killed despite their initial behavior being "harmful" to him.

I think it depends more on the status of the person. For example, in Volume 15, it is said that the real body visited the world, and in that world, a fair number of gods died.

In Volume 11, ueg just by thinking of killing Yogiri, her death was determined. Even though she tried to change the cause of it by not thinking of killing, her status as the God of Ensemble made her still a threat to Yogiri.

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

I don't think this refers to transcending cause and effect entirely as a concept, but rather to the idea that even going back in time doesn’t negate what he does in the future. It’s like, even after rewinding time, you would still be affected by causes that yet to happen in the future. That alone wouldn’t qualify as acausality; it might be just 4D range instead Imo.

As I said, the CFE itself has gone back in time to eliminate the cause of his death, so without cause there is no effect. Ultimately, death still counts down.

Because he is a time-taker and knows the cause, when he knows the cause of his death, he goes back in time.

He himself thought the same thing, that if he went back, it would destroy the future cause he was going to do, so it would no longer have an effect.

Five seconds left. There was nothing beyond that point. Time would end after only five more seconds. So the Foundation Eater went backwards. If it was only a matter of seconds, reversing time wasn't especially challenging. Fifteen seconds now remained. Despite moving backwards ten seconds, nothing had been altered, which was strange. It had recognized that it was going to die ten seconds before it was to happen, so if something had occurred at that moment to bring about its death, returning to a moment before that should have, logically speaking, freed it from that fate. But the approaching end still loomed.

Finally. it still works without cause and effect. Logically, when one goes back to a point where there is no cause, there is no effect. In this case, he knows and goes back to prevent the cause from happening (he goes back even before there is a cause).
But with his status as a god, that is the status that Yogiri thought that leaving it as it is might still be a problem.

I think I already explained it.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

As I said, the CFE itself has gone back in time to eliminate the cause of his death, so without cause there is no effect. Ultimately, death still counts down.

Because he is a time-taker and knows the cause, when he knows the cause of his death, he goes back in time.

He himself thought the same thing, that if he went back, it would destroy the future cause he was going to do, so it would no longer have an effect.


Finally. it still works without cause and effect. Logically, when one goes back to a point where there is no cause, there is no effect. In this case, he knows and goes back to prevent the cause from happening (he goes back even before there is a cause).
But with his status as a god, that is the status that Yogiri thought that leaving it as it is might still be a problem.

I think I already explained it.

I don’t know what you’re adding, since nothing new is introduced nor does it contradict what I said. Anyway, at most, this would give Yogiri causality manipulation, not acausality.

 

[SweetDao]

I think it depends more on the status of the person. For example, in Volume 15, it is said that the real body visited the world, and in that world, a fair number of gods died.

Yeah, obviously, gods like Malnarilna, Mitsuki, UEG, and other random gods.

In Volume 11, ueg just by thinking of killing Yogiri, her death was determined. Even though she tried to change the cause of it by not thinking of killing, her status as the God of Ensemble made her still a threat to Yogiri.

Yes and we know why. Gods can't stop their thinking/will when they decided something. It was explained by Kouryuu moments before UEG death. She can't just "I don't want to kill him anymore".

 

[Ihsjihahxu]

don’t

As I said, I have said it before, and I do not see anything that Yogiri Causality mani

He didn't even destroy cause and effect, his death just didn't work on the system of cause and effect.
CFE makes the cause exist, and death is the effect. Since CFE goes back in time to make the cause of the effect nonexistent, then the effect of death should stop counting down.
But What we get is that when there is no cause, death still works, which shows that death does not actually work on a system of cause and effect.

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

As I said, I have said it before, and I do not see anything that Yogiri Causality mani

He didn't even destroy cause and effect, his death just didn't work on the system of cause and effect.
CFE makes the cause exist, and death is the effect. Since CFE goes back in time to make the cause of the effect nonexistent, then the effect of death should stop counting down.
But What we get is that when there is no cause, death still works, which shows that death does not actually work on a system of cause and effect.

Again , nothing is contradicted. Ignoring the relation between cause and effect (so that even if the cause is erased from the past, the effect still remains.) Destroying the effect of a cause, reverting the effect, or manipulating or creating the effect of a cause to make it greater than it should’ve been, making impossibile possible etc. All of these are part of causality manipulation.

And as I said, I think @SweetDao second option makes sense here.

 

[New2scale]

Again , nothing is contradicted. Ignoring the relation between cause and effect (so that even if the cause is erased from the past, the effect still remains.) Destroying the effect of a cause, reverting the effect, or manipulating or creating the effect of a cause to make it greater than it should’ve been, making impossibile possible etc. All of these are part of causality manipulation.

And as I said, I think @SweetDao second option makes sense here.

hmmm, what is causality manipulation? like reality manipulation? so Yogiri negates casuality or reality manipulation effects you mean?

 

[AstraphelNoctis4]

hmmm, what is causality manipulation? like reality manipulation? so Yogiri negates casuality or reality manipulation effects you mean?

Well...

Personally, this option makes more sense. I think that since the CFE is capable of meddling with time (seeing the future, rewinding past...) he foresaw his death due to his choice of killing Yogiri (which ends up with his true form trying to blow away the CF). What killed him isn't necessarily the "killing intent" he had, but specifically the wish to cause trouble to Yogiri (and the acts that follows). If I'm not wrong, there is one or more instances in the novel of characters giving up on damaging Yogiri and not getting killed despite their initial behavior being "harmful" to him.

 

[New2scale]

Well...

Ah okay, i remember that Yogiri didn't stop his auto mass killing protection ability (setting self imposed limitations) at that time. Yogiri decides what he thinks is harmful and decides whether he wants to take damage from it or not. He isn't necessarily limited in the amount of ways to deal with causality or reality manipulation. Rather he just doesn't care enough to go through the hassle of figuring out exactly what to pinpoint to save or delete most of the times. There's a bunch of arguements on this discussion. What was the main arguement about? AC4? Acasuality stuff? i'm looking these terms up atm lol.