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Yhwach VS Sigmar
- Thread starter Sergeant_Hypocrite
- Start date
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Yeah it's significantly closer than his other keys, all Yhwach really has going for him is his 5-A AP, and like, he'll definitely kill Sigmar's avatar if he connects but...like, Sigmar will absolutely just either resurrect and heal that avatar or simply find another one and finish Yhwach off with any of his plethora of winning moves.
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What stops Yhawch from coming back through alternate fates?
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Would he be able to do that when the death he's trying to come back from is caused by someone who resists fate manip? Especially if his existence is erased?
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I don't see why not?
Yhwach's Resurrection is him using his Fate Manipulation on himself, not on another person.
Yhwach's Resurrection is him using his Fate Manipulation on himself, not on another person.
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Isn't that his type 8 immortality? if so Sigmar negs it.
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That's his type 4
He uses his fate hax on himself and resurrects
His type 8 is via all energy on the environment making him regen and making him stronger everytime he does come back
His other type 8 is via as long as someone shears for him he will become stronger and heal all injuries (this ability already comes with a cheerleader that can multiply basically)
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Okay well this is probably incon then if neither can put each other down. Can he use it to come back from BFR? cause Sigmar can BFR him to the Realm of Chaos.
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Yeah it's a strong BFR to considering once you're there you get instantly mindhaxed/have your mind shattered, basically incapping and bfring at the same time if you don't resist
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He has numerous methods of Dimensional Travel and Portal Creation.
So he should be able to yes.
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Yeah but he gets 5-D mind haxed at the same time so.
Edit: 5-D isn't accepted yet but he still gets mindhaxed.
Edit: 5-D isn't accepted yet but he still gets mindhaxed.
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Is it beyond 3-D or beyond a type 3 conceptual mindhax?
What would stop Yhwach from making the mindhax take his side and not affect him?
What would stop Yhwach from making the mindhax take his side and not affect him?
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Because it's a realm controlled by 2-B's. I dont think he can stop the Ream of Chaos from affecting him without resistance. He isn't even going to be able to see the possible fates of himself in the ROC or make sense of any of it anyway.
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A realm being controlled by a Tier 2 being =/= Tier 2 Mindhax or anything of the sort.
Until 5-D mindhax for the realm gets accepted, I would make the argument that Yhwach will null it, and teleport back.
Honestly, this feels inconclusive to me.
Until 5-D mindhax for the realm gets accepted, I would make the argument that Yhwach will null it, and teleport back.
Honestly, this feels inconclusive to me.
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Ywach doesn't have any feats of nulling the effects of an entire reality. Much less one where his mind is instantly shattered upon entry. Let alone the fact that the future and the past and the present are completely meaningless in the ROC.
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Especially if he drops him specifically in Tzeentch's Crystal Labyrinth where he even daemons who are resistant to the mindhax/madness of the RoC gets instantly mindhaxed, and unlike the rest of the realm of Chaos, we CAN directly scale it to Tier 2 considering it is quiet literally a facet of the Chaos God itself as it is simply a projection of it's will. Which is canonically where he usually sends people as both times he's done this, it's sent them straight to the Labyrinth.
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An ability is an ability - where it emanates from isn't relevant, nor is the dimension's sense of time, it's how that ability affects the person that matters - in this case mindhaxing him, but Yhwach's power makes it so other powers can't hurt or be used against him.
And making an argument based on the possibility of a character doing X thing specifically isn't definite.
Also, it doesn't matter if it's a superior level of mindhax, Yhwach's way of dealing with the mindhax wouldn't be from resisting it, it would be from negating it.
And again, that doesn't mean that the mindhax scales to Tier 2. Facets, portions, or projections of something don't equate to their full capabilities unless proven otherwise. If there is nothing proving Tier 2 mindhax currently, then my vote remains inconclusive.
And making an argument based on the possibility of a character doing X thing specifically isn't definite.
Also, it doesn't matter if it's a superior level of mindhax, Yhwach's way of dealing with the mindhax wouldn't be from resisting it, it would be from negating it.
And again, that doesn't mean that the mindhax scales to Tier 2. Facets, portions, or projections of something don't equate to their full capabilities unless proven otherwise. If there is nothing proving Tier 2 mindhax currently, then my vote remains inconclusive.
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It's not 'where it emanates from' thats the issue. It's the scale. He has no feats of negging abilities on this scale. Also the Realm of Chaos is almost entirely the construction of the Chaos Gods and their realms are literally extentions of themselves so it is tier 2 mindhax he has to neg. Ywach's powernull is only pseudo passive right? how does he decide a future where he negs the power if his mind is shattered? Has he even been able to negate passives before?
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Unless you can definitively prove that the Realm of Chaos' mindhax is 4-D or beyond, you don't have any feats of saying the ability is on such a scale.
A realm being created by a Chaos God and being apart of a Chaos god means nothing, dude. The entirety of creation in Dies Irae is the law of Mercurius. Hadou Gods embody their law and their law expands endlessly until everything is apart of themself as your stomach is apart of you. That doesn't mean that all of creation is High 1-A because it was created and is a part of a diety. The same thing can be said here for the Chaos Gods and the Realm of Chaos.
Do you have any proof of Tier 2 mindhax for Realm of Chaos? No? Then it will get nulled, and Yhwach will teleport back to a fight in which no one wins, leading to it remaining inconclusive.
Yhwach's Almighty possesses numerous powers, but you're wrong on one thing, he isn't deciding a future in which he negs the power. The Almighty allows Yhwach to see from the present into all distant futures, every power that he sees takes his side, being unable to hurt or be used to harm him in any way. His power null is literally as passive as sight.
The Almighty's ability to change futures is a different ability that The Almighty possesses and isn't related to his power null. It is also not a passive ability, but it is thought-based.
The Almighty is the greatest power in the series, and at the very least, the greatest Schriftt, which would mean it would be uncontestable by numerous other Schriftts which few grant numerous different passive abilities - like passive fear manipulation and probability manipulation from his underlings, for example.
So in a way, yes.
A realm being created by a Chaos God and being apart of a Chaos god means nothing, dude. The entirety of creation in Dies Irae is the law of Mercurius. Hadou Gods embody their law and their law expands endlessly until everything is apart of themself as your stomach is apart of you. That doesn't mean that all of creation is High 1-A because it was created and is a part of a diety. The same thing can be said here for the Chaos Gods and the Realm of Chaos.
Do you have any proof of Tier 2 mindhax for Realm of Chaos? No? Then it will get nulled, and Yhwach will teleport back to a fight in which no one wins, leading to it remaining inconclusive.
Yhwach's Almighty possesses numerous powers, but you're wrong on one thing, he isn't deciding a future in which he negs the power. The Almighty allows Yhwach to see from the present into all distant futures, every power that he sees takes his side, being unable to hurt or be used to harm him in any way. His power null is literally as passive as sight.
The Almighty's ability to change futures is a different ability that The Almighty possesses and isn't related to his power null. It is also not a passive ability, but it is thought-based.
The Almighty is the greatest power in the series, and at the very least, the greatest Schriftt, which would mean it would be uncontestable by numerous other Schriftts which few grant numerous different passive abilities - like passive fear manipulation and probability manipulation from his underlings, for example.
So in a way, yes.
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Tier 2 is just 4D
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Is anyone contesting that?
There is a reason why I am using the terms interchangeably.
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Dont think so, is just that I was confuse why everyone keep saying tier 2 when tier 2 is just 4D
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The Realm of Chaos is literally is an extension of their bodies as are all the Daemons, I truly dont see how you could argue that it doesn't scale to their full power, we literally give people tiers for creation why wouldnt we give people hax for creation?
(Scan showing their realms are just at the centre of their trueselves and extentions of their avatars) The passive Madness/mind hax of the Chaos Gods applies to their realms as well.
(Scan showing their realms are just at the centre of their trueselves and extentions of their avatars) The passive Madness/mind hax of the Chaos Gods applies to their realms as well.
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Cause the God in question is Tier 2, and the current argument is based on whether the mindhax of the realm scales to that god or not.
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Obviously, the Chaos God would get the hax ability of a realm he creates and is apart of him, no one is arguing that.
I am arguing that there is no proof that the level of mindhax that the realm emanates is equivalent to the Chaos God's level of existence.
Being part of a whole =/= the whole thing.
My Dies Irae example shows how this mindset is erroneous.
The creation is dependent on the creator, not the other way around. There is no reason to assume that the mindhax properties of the Realm of Chaos would scale to the Chaos God, it would be logical to assume the opposite, that the Chaos God would scale to and/or above what he has created or what is a part of himself.
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So then you're arguing he gets mind haxed by greater then 2-B mindhax? im confused lol. If the Madness hax of the ROC is induced by the literal bodies of the Chaos Gods how can you argue it doesn't scale to their avatars? (again the Fantasy Chaos gods don't have a profile yet) not to mention they have passive soul hax with a range as large as the ROC.
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How can you confused, I am speaking basic English.
Just because the Chaos God created a realm, or that the realm is a part of the Chaos God, does not mean the passive mindhax of that realm would scale from the Chaos God.
The Chaos God would scale to and likely above it himself, but the realm itself, without more definitive proof, wouldn't scale to the God - this isn't a revolving door, it doesn't go both ways.
I will create an analogy to better explain it:
For this analogy, consider that Water is the Realm of Chaos, and Milk is the Chaos God as I list a few facts below.
While Water comprises 87% of Milk, however, that does not mean that water is equal to Milk, and you would not say in real life that water and milk are the same thing, right? They are two different beverages.
Water is in Milk, but Milk isn't Water or in Water. You can't scale the same level of abilities that Milk has to Water, but you can scale the same, or possibly beyond, level of abilities that Water has to Milk, since it is a part of a greater whole.
Do you see what I am saying here?
Just because the Realm of Chaos is a part of the Chaos God and is created by them, that does not mean that its level of mindhax scales to the Chaos Gods' level of existence which would make it 4-D. And thus, without any proof of 4-D or greater mindhax, the conclusion would be that the mindhax is only 3-D, which Yhwach can null, and then thus - this fight is inconclusive because neither party can put the other down permanently.
Just because the Chaos God created a realm, or that the realm is a part of the Chaos God, does not mean the passive mindhax of that realm would scale from the Chaos God.
The Chaos God would scale to and likely above it himself, but the realm itself, without more definitive proof, wouldn't scale to the God - this isn't a revolving door, it doesn't go both ways.
I will create an analogy to better explain it:
For this analogy, consider that Water is the Realm of Chaos, and Milk is the Chaos God as I list a few facts below.
While Water comprises 87% of Milk, however, that does not mean that water is equal to Milk, and you would not say in real life that water and milk are the same thing, right? They are two different beverages.
Water is in Milk, but Milk isn't Water or in Water. You can't scale the same level of abilities that Milk has to Water, but you can scale the same, or possibly beyond, level of abilities that Water has to Milk, since it is a part of a greater whole.
Do you see what I am saying here?
Just because the Realm of Chaos is a part of the Chaos God and is created by them, that does not mean that its level of mindhax scales to the Chaos Gods' level of existence which would make it 4-D. And thus, without any proof of 4-D or greater mindhax, the conclusion would be that the mindhax is only 3-D, which Yhwach can null, and then thus - this fight is inconclusive because neither party can put the other down permanently.
Oliver_de_jesus
He/Him- 24,548
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In this continuity, RoC isn't separated from the normal universe? (I don't know anything about fantasy, only the basics of WH40K)
Unless I forgotten something, Yhwach does not have the ability to travel through separate universes, only dimensions that are in the same universe, (although I may be wrong since I have only seen the manga a couple of times and then dropped a year ago)
Unless I forgotten something, Yhwach does not have the ability to travel through separate universes, only dimensions that are in the same universe, (although I may be wrong since I have only seen the manga a couple of times and then dropped a year ago)
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It's a seperate universe yes, as for Yhwach's limits on travelling, I'm just as fuzzy
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Hueco Mundo, The World of the Living, and the Soul Society are all separated space-times that are traversed through the void that exist around all of them together like the Dangai or Gargantua.
They aren't connected to one another like, let's say, the Soul King's Palace and the Soul Society are, which is a dimension that is inside of another dimension, for instance.
They aren't connected to one another like, let's say, the Soul King's Palace and the Soul Society are, which is a dimension that is inside of another dimension, for instance.
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'Just because the Chaos God created a realm, or that the realm is a part of the Chaos God, does not mean the passive mindhax of that realm would scale from the Chaos God.
The Chaos God would scale to and likely above it himself, but the realm itself, without more definitive proof, wouldn't scale to the God - this isn't a revolving door, it doesn't go both ways.'
It's not as simple as that their Realms are 'Created' by them or that they is a 'part' of them. The spaces in the ROC are literally their body, even if you disagree with mind hax scaling to their true selves their type 3 madness hax clearly does as you are perceiving a part of their literal body and it's driving you mad.
The Chaos God would scale to and likely above it himself, but the realm itself, without more definitive proof, wouldn't scale to the God - this isn't a revolving door, it doesn't go both ways.'
It's not as simple as that their Realms are 'Created' by them or that they is a 'part' of them. The spaces in the ROC are literally their body, even if you disagree with mind hax scaling to their true selves their type 3 madness hax clearly does as you are perceiving a part of their literal body and it's driving you mad.
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Whatever, I don't care about this enough to argue this for this long.
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https://vsbattles.com/threads/i-revise-a-verse-nobody-cares-about.109794/#post-3433664 thread to upgrade ROC to baseline 5-D. I agree with you Warren that it's probably incon.
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ROC is now 5-D so Ywach probably loses now.
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Yhwach already gets stomped, even before your crt exists.
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It was incon till then actually.
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How was it incon while Sigmar does have more winning condition? Yhwach's dimension travel is only 2-C range and he would be easily trapped in the Chaos Realm which contains countless universe.
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Not really, he just chooses a fate where he finds the right way out.
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How does that BFR work? does he just magically appear there? or portal is opened?
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He opens a portal made out of Azyr on Ywach's location and then seals it shut. (Ywach can't null this because he can't interact with it and Sigmar resists powernull)
