Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,186
- 5,309
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Tiber Septim VS Sigmar Heldenhammer
- Thread starter Stefano4444
- Start date
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,186
- 5,309
- Thread starter
- #3
Bump
- 42,435
- 36,724
Shoulda called a Warhammer person for this
Tiber probably throws a High 1-A hax
if he can't... Sigmar just bonks him with his 1-A murder hammer known as Ghal Maraz. Tiber can't do much against a guy even more uninteractible than he.
Tiber probably throws a High 1-A hax
if he can't... Sigmar just bonks him with his 1-A murder hammer known as Ghal Maraz. Tiber can't do much against a guy even more uninteractible than he.
- 1,358
- 1,916
yeah i gotta agree, it all comes down to if Tiber can High 1-A Sigmar or not
- 9,887
- 3,582
Hmmm....
Tiber Septim (Or in the relevant key, TAL(OS)):
Low Outerverse level (Ascended to Godhood and mantled Lorkhan, taking his role as the Missing Ninth God of Change, and thus becoming one and the same as him[7])
Lorkhan?
Attack Potency: Low Outerverse level (Personifies the fundamental concept of space and limit that permeates and sustains the Aurbic World-Egg,[16] existing as "the skin of gold" that encloses all of its realms,[17][16] up to and including the Aetherius that encompasses[18] and exists in a "more real" state compared to the Mundus and the infinitely-dimensioned void of Oblivion[19]. The twin and mirror-brother of Aka[20][16])
Aka?
Low Outerverse level (Personifies the fundamental concept of time that permeates the entirety of the Aurbic World-Egg,[21] and which allowed the other Et'Ada to erupt into being and form their own identities[22][23][8] encompassing everything up to the Aetherius that encompasses[24] and exists in a "more real" state compared to the Mundus and the infinitely-dimensioned void of Oblivion.[25] The twin and mirror-brother of Lorkhan,[26][21])
After all, to decide a winner, first we need to decide CAN they win by checking capabilities, then WILL they win, by checking their in-character behaviour, AFAIK.
Tiber Septim (Or in the relevant key, TAL(OS)):
Low Outerverse level (Ascended to Godhood and mantled Lorkhan, taking his role as the Missing Ninth God of Change, and thus becoming one and the same as him[7])
Lorkhan?
Attack Potency: Low Outerverse level (Personifies the fundamental concept of space and limit that permeates and sustains the Aurbic World-Egg,[16] existing as "the skin of gold" that encloses all of its realms,[17][16] up to and including the Aetherius that encompasses[18] and exists in a "more real" state compared to the Mundus and the infinitely-dimensioned void of Oblivion[19]. The twin and mirror-brother of Aka[20][16])
Aka?
Low Outerverse level (Personifies the fundamental concept of time that permeates the entirety of the Aurbic World-Egg,[21] and which allowed the other Et'Ada to erupt into being and form their own identities[22][23][8] encompassing everything up to the Aetherius that encompasses[24] and exists in a "more real" state compared to the Mundus and the infinitely-dimensioned void of Oblivion.[25] The twin and mirror-brother of Lorkhan,[26][21])
So is it a question of who scales higher, or who lacks what Power/Ability/Resistance(s)?
After all, to decide a winner, first we need to decide CAN they win by checking capabilities, then WILL they win, by checking their in-character behaviour, AFAIK.
- 42,435
- 36,724
No you really don't get it
Ghal Maraz is solid 1-A in both the stuff it does and hax, Sigmar's primary method of fighting is to blast in close and bonk whatever is bothering him over the head or if he can't get close, by launching Ghal Maraz like a ******* meteor.
However, Sigmar is uninteractible in terms of other Low 1-As, so if Tiber tries anything less then a High 1-A hax, it will literally pass through Sigmar.
- 9,887
- 3,582
So it's a matter of who scales higher, sort of?
Need to get sufficiently high into High 1-A for hax, then?
- 42,435
- 36,724
Warhammer peaks at 1-A, which is where Ghal Maraz scales, if Tiber uses High 1-A hax, assuming he has it, it will beat Sigmar
But getting bonked with Ghal Maraz is not conducive for one's health. You can ask Nagash on that one
- 9,887
- 3,582
Well, looking at the justifications, TAL(OS) is Lorkhan, having Mantled him.
From the tabbers for TAL(OS)'s Powers & Abilities:
All previous powers on an unfathomably greater scale, in addition to all of Lorkhan's abilities, as Talos is the same being as him.
From Lorkhan's P&A:
Tier: Low 1-A | High 1-A
Key: The Aurbis | Unbound Et'Ada
High Outerverse level (In their original states, the Et'Ada were entities that partook in the primordial interplay between Anu and Padomay, existing as sparks of divinity directly descended from their first interaction, before everything else came to existence, and being the primal state of being which Ruling Kings of the Aurbis return to through their attainment of CHIM[21])
I don't remember the exact details, but the summary on Lorkhan's page gives some context:
Lorkhan (Doom-Drum) is the Missing God of Change and the Mutant of Space. He is the Soul of Sithis, and the opposite counterpart to the Dragon God of Time, Aka, the Soul of Anui-El. Their simultaneous birth were what allowed the Et'Ada to crystallize and erupt from ineffability into being, allowing them to recognize themselves as individual entities, and together give order and shape to the cacophony of the primordial chaos, creating existence: The Aurbis.
Lorkhan grew watching the Aurbis of the Et'Ada shape itself and take form as its creators destroyed each other and interfered with each other's creations, and as a padomaic being driven by change, he grew equally delighted and tired with the whole of existence, wanting all of it and none of it at the same time. And consumed by his desire for it, Lorkhan traveled to the Void beyond the Aurbis, and wandering through its deepest reaches, he turned back and saw the Wheel of all existence sideways as a Tower, as the shape of the True Name of God - "I" - That was the first word Lorkhan ever uttered, and one that came with Enlightenment: Existence was as a prison, a lightless cave of suffering in which transcendence could never be achieved, as the Et'Ada were infinite and ineffable, unable to ponder and reflect about their own insignificance within the bounds of the Dream of God.
Inspired by his grand epiphany, Lorkhan conceived of a plan to create The Mortal Plane, Mundus, a terrain and endeavor that would act as a pathway for the last Subgradient of all AE, and a testing ground for ascendance where the Original Spirits would be snatched away from their once unlimited selves and become vastly weakened, thus allowing them to undergo self-reflection and enlightenment, the secret syllable of royalty, CHIM.
Lorkhan grew watching the Aurbis of the Et'Ada shape itself and take form as its creators destroyed each other and interfered with each other's creations, and as a padomaic being driven by change, he grew equally delighted and tired with the whole of existence, wanting all of it and none of it at the same time. And consumed by his desire for it, Lorkhan traveled to the Void beyond the Aurbis, and wandering through its deepest reaches, he turned back and saw the Wheel of all existence sideways as a Tower, as the shape of the True Name of God - "I" - That was the first word Lorkhan ever uttered, and one that came with Enlightenment: Existence was as a prison, a lightless cave of suffering in which transcendence could never be achieved, as the Et'Ada were infinite and ineffable, unable to ponder and reflect about their own insignificance within the bounds of the Dream of God.
Inspired by his grand epiphany, Lorkhan conceived of a plan to create The Mortal Plane, Mundus, a terrain and endeavor that would act as a pathway for the last Subgradient of all AE, and a testing ground for ascendance where the Original Spirits would be snatched away from their once unlimited selves and become vastly weakened, thus allowing them to undergo self-reflection and enlightenment, the secret syllable of royalty, CHIM.
Put briefly, The Aurbis is all existence, & the Et'ada... well, assuming this justification refers to the same Unbound Et'Ada that predated the formation of The Aurbis:
High Outerverse level (In their original states, the Et'Ada were entities that partook in the primordial interplay between Anu and Padomay, existing as sparks of divinity directly descended from their first interaction, before everything else came to existence, and being the primal state of being which Ruling Kings of the Aurbis return to through their attainment of CHIM[21])
Ruling Kings of the Aurbis link to Vivec & Talos, respectively.
So I suppose if TALOS achieved CHIM...?
- 42,435
- 36,724
That doesn't tell me if Tiber has any High 1-A hax in this key
If he doesn't, he gets bonked, if he does, he needs to use it before he gets bonked
If he doesn't, he gets bonked, if he does, he needs to use it before he gets bonked
- 9,887
- 3,582
His base (Hjalti), which is Tier 6:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Martial Arts, Weapon Mastery, Acausality (Type 4. As a Shezarrine, Hjalti is fully unaffected by the Dragon Breaks, being capable of existing normally even within severe ones such as the Middle Dawn,[1] which affected the whole of Mundus and was described as a full return to the non-linearity of the Dawn Era), Limited Sound Manipulation and Information Manipulation (Through the Thu'um, which allows him to alter, and add to, the Song of the Aurbis itself to a limited capacity in order to achieve a variety of effects. Although the Shouts that Hjalti had access to are unknown), Resistance to Spatial Manipulation, Time Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Mathematics Manipulation and Physics Manipulation (As mentioned beforehand, he, much like all other Shezarrines, was unaffected by the Middle Dawn, which was caused by the Mundus being detached from the Aurbis itself[2] and returned to the chaos of the Dawn Era, the state prior to the Aedra stabilizing the world into existence through the concepts they personify)
Tiber Septim:
All Former Powers on a far higher scale, as well as Longevity (Stretched his natural lifespan through the use of magic) and Supernatural Willpower (Having become a Ruling King in his lifetime, Tiber was an individual with enough willpower and sense of self to assert his own individuality even when assaulted, through all his senses, with the boundless nature of the Godhead and his place within it,[3] keeping his own sanity and existence intact despite the sheer existential terror that comes with this realization)
The Supernatural Willpower likely relates to his capacity to achieve CHIM.
That said, his AP section & P&A don't suggest -At least, to my understanding- that he has High 1-A hax (Which would be achieved through CHIM.) useable in his Low 1-A Key.
Perhaps I'm ignorant of something that may tip the scales, but by my understanding, if Talos cannot use CHIM, there is no chance against Sigmar.
- 7,288
- 2,035
I don’t know why people keep assuming this. The only High 1-A thing from the characters that aren’t High 1-A is prisoner stuff. Elder scroll low 1-As, 1-As, and High 1-As aren’t smurfs.
- 9,887
- 3,582
There is Lorkhan's powers, which he has in this key, but IDK if Low 1-A's P&A are relevant here.
What that has includes:
Causality Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation (His "birth" marked the creation of the concept of space, much like his brother and counterpart, Aka, formed the concept of time), Cosmic Awareness, Matter Manipulation, Higher-Dimensional Manipulation, Creation, Reality Warping, Life and Death Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Social Influencing, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1. Immensely above minor gods such as the Ideal Masters, who are stated to live in a platonic ideal of their own making beyond the Mundus,[11] and his own existence sustains and defines that of the aforementioned Gods and their concepts alongside his brother, Aka), Law Manipulation and Physics Manipulation, Existence Erasure (The Et'Ada are stated to be capable of submitting othe spirits to "sithite erasure."[9]), Soul Manipulation, Sound Manipulation and Information Manipulation (The entirety of the Aurbis is, in fact, a song,[12] and entities with divine power are capable of manipulating the underlying tones of existence by acknowledging that principle, shaping reality through the manipulation of stories and archetypes,[13] making myth[14] and metaphor[15] manifest), Large Size (Type 11)
But I'm not sure such applies for TAL(OS).
What that has includes:
Causality Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation (His "birth" marked the creation of the concept of space, much like his brother and counterpart, Aka, formed the concept of time), Cosmic Awareness, Matter Manipulation, Higher-Dimensional Manipulation, Creation, Reality Warping, Life and Death Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Social Influencing, Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1. Immensely above minor gods such as the Ideal Masters, who are stated to live in a platonic ideal of their own making beyond the Mundus,[11] and his own existence sustains and defines that of the aforementioned Gods and their concepts alongside his brother, Aka), Law Manipulation and Physics Manipulation, Existence Erasure (The Et'Ada are stated to be capable of submitting othe spirits to "sithite erasure."[9]), Soul Manipulation, Sound Manipulation and Information Manipulation (The entirety of the Aurbis is, in fact, a song,[12] and entities with divine power are capable of manipulating the underlying tones of existence by acknowledging that principle, shaping reality through the manipulation of stories and archetypes,[13] making myth[14] and metaphor[15] manifest), Large Size (Type 11)
Yeah, IIRC, there's stuff like The Nerevarine, who is a Prisoner, where their default is to take all possible actions at once & thus automatically win if they have a win condition or something like that.
But I'm not sure such applies for TAL(OS).
- 9,887
- 3,582
My apologies for any bother.
Also, would you say that it's worth any interested to consider this material regarding Elder Scrolls Prisoners?:
The Elder Scrolls: Metaphysics & Philosophy
Hello again, everyone. Hope you're doing well. In my latest Elder Scrolls Blog, where I talked about the setting's general cosmology and lore, I promised that there would eventually be a follow-up blog, where I would discuss the truly complicated, metaphysical concepts featured in the series...
vsbattles.fandom.com
Sotha Sil's dialogue in Elder Scrolls Online is likely the most straightforward indication that the Prisoner is a Cosmic Constant who holds great power, with the Clockwork God even stating that the Prisoner is free from deterministic fate and causality, thus being capable of making their own choices.
- 42,435
- 36,724
Well. I guess Sigmar bonks him then, cause Sigmar is apsolutely a smurf, he's not a major one all things considered, this isn't Nagash, but he Ghal Maraz is all the smurfery he needs in a straight up fight, seeing as he resists everything under the sun
- 9,887
- 3,582
Incidentally, the Nerevarine's current profile lists them as
Tier: Low 2-C | Likely High 1-B
Keys: Base | Piloting Akulakhan (Landfall)
...despite being a Prisoner. Yet they're not even Low 1-A.
Is that something to be changed later?
Nonetheless, thank you very much for your information providing in this thread, & sorry for how I may have bothered you.
- 7,288
- 2,035
Prisoners don’t have offense hax, in a way, from being prisoners and it’s not anything tierable. Pretty much they just have a nature that has them do everything (and resist time stop inexplicably shown in oblivion and online). So technically it is offense because you can’t really stop them from attacking you in every way possible, but none of the attacks are 1-A Smurf (they maybe a bit smurfy with artifacts from Daedra and gods though).
- 42,435
- 36,724
How high into 1-A?
- 9,887
- 3,582
So, when you said "The only High 1-A thing from the characters that aren’t High 1-A is prisoner stuff", you meant more in terms of Range or Dimensionality, rather than offensive potency or Speed?
- 7,288
- 2,035
No clue, depends on if Gods keep the same superiority they have to Daedra since I heard Oblivion has a good arguement for tier 1-A, but that was a bit ago so it maybe low 1-A now since it think that took over new 1-As previous baseline near the end of the revision.
- 7,288
- 2,035
I meant in terms of offense. No tier 1-A has Smurf offense, they do got monsterous range though currently (maybe will be downgraded but for now they do).
- 9,887
- 3,582
Thank you very much again.
Incidentally, any idea of how CHIM should be, & if it'll be changed at all?
LazerDim8000
Username Only- 589
- 108
I don't care about this match but can you stop spreading misinformation? Talos is literally lorkhan in his low 1a key. Take a look at his durability and range before claiming no one is a smurf. He has a high 1a essence and all gods have access to sithis erasure, but his profile is outdated anyway. Elder scrolls low 1a is based on aetherius, a place that’s said to be more real than even oblivion and contains numerous realms that would likely be uncountable-infinite layers into 1a going by the new system.
LazerDim8000
Username Only- 589
- 108
LazerDim8000
Username Only- 589
- 108
??? You’re referring to a different existence of lorkhan. tiber septim having mantled lorkhan, made him become whole again. That was literally lorkhan’s plan from the start: to respawn himself and achieve what other gods could not.
LazerDim8000
Username Only- 589
- 108
Do you think lorkhan was forcibly ambushed and had his heart destroyed? Or was it because he willingly gave up himself for judgment ? Everything was planned. Tiber Septim/new lorkhan is on a different level.
LazerDim8000
Username Only- 589
- 108
Dying in the sense of having his parts spread out across existence by auriel, not just anyone. It still left him with possible avatars that roamed about mundus. Septim is on a different level because immediately after mantling Lorkhan, he achieved CHIM. His low 1a state/key, if ever reached, was very brief. Anyways I’d rather not delay this thread
- 7,288
- 2,035
You are missing what I am getting at. For a match with a low 1-A currently, low 1-As can harm and, in all the ways that matter, kill Talos and Lokhran right now. His overall true self will remain but the one in this match will absolutely die. Then the different level doesn’t matter, we aren’t using CHIM.
- 42,435
- 36,724
Nor will we ever be unless Warhammer gets some fucky statements sometime in the next couple years
- 101
- 107
Not necessarily….
Similar threads
