Yet Another GoW Question

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Currently, all instances of soul manipulation in God of War have the following properties. This applies to both the Greek and Norse games.

Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation & Memory Manipulation, Probability Manipulation & Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Souls are constructs of magic, composed of their form, the metaphysical nature of a being, their luck, their mind and their direction. Damaging souls can shatter and fragment their memories as a consequence.[16])

I won't contest the abilities themselves here, but it should be noted that the statements about the soul's nature only come from the Nordic pantheon. The Grecian pantheon has no such statements, so I would like to ask why souls from two vastly different cosmologies with different afterlives are being composited; The explanation page offers no explanation for this (odd, considering the name) and I've found no prior discussion on this topic.

 

[ShionAH]

I always wondered this, giving the entire verse and everything in it CM1 due to a single statement from Norses after life is crazy

 

[Deagonx]

giving the entire verse and everything in it CM1 due to a single statement from Norses after life is crazy

To be honest, CM1 is entirely nonsensical from the premise, too. Even as dubious as I felt the "gods are Type 1 concepts" stuff was, treating every single soul as a type 1 concept is indefensible, nothing in the scans even remotely supports it. But with the verse being as bad as it is hax wise, it doesn't come as a surprise.

 

[ShionAH]

To

True true also can I ask you something, Kratos has resistance to Sleep hax yet the profile acknowledge that he was affected by it. Am I missing some context?

"Was the only person in the world not to be immediately affected by Morpheus seizing power. However, with prolonged exposure to the fog, he eventually succumbed"

 

[Planck69]

This is said by a Celtic Faerie to a Jotunn and an Olympian and he makes no actual distinction whatsoever. This is just basic understanding of the scene.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also doesn't Kratos's soul operate this same way despite being from the Greek Pantheon? I do see the concern but based on what we know, I don't believe different Pantheons would cause any stark differences

 

[chosen]

I dissagree with planck, make Kratos comicvine level or i am hacking antvasima

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Kratos can die and he would go to Valhalla, his soul operates just fine in Norse.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is said by a Celtic Faerie to a Jotunn and an Olympian and he makes no actual distinction whatsoever. This is just basic understanding of the scene.

Yeah, he doesn't make any distinction because he doesn't need to. They're in the Nine Realms when he says this, why on earth would he be referring to souls from a world that literally does not exist anymore?

 

[Deagonx]

Kratos has resistance to Sleep hax yet the profile acknowledge that he was affected by it. Am I missing some context?

"Was the only person in the world not to be immediately affected by Morpheus seizing power. However, with prolonged exposure to the fog, he eventually succumbed"

No, Kratos just doesn't have such an ability. The scarce few other humans encountered during that period are not sleeping. Some gods are, but when you first return to the town and see Morpheus has taken over, the towns folk are being slaughtered by monsters, not falling asleep en masse. Nothing is said to suggest that Kratos remaining awake is surprising or due to an ability of his. It'll probably get removed at some point, but there's just so much to get through with this verse that it's hard to say when it'll happen.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

This is said by a Celtic Faerie to a Jotunn and an Olympian and he makes no actual distinction whatsoever. This is just basic understanding of the scene.

Kratos was born in the norse pantheon

 

[ShionAH]

It'll probably get removed at some point, but there's just so much to get through with this verse that it's hard to say when it'll happen.

Thanks for yoır answer, I’ll add that to my CRT

 

[Fixxed]

Yeah i agree with planck, and also there are no contradict proof. Unless of course you can show it operate differently in both land

We take the most simple understanding (occam razor) for not make any assumption that far from the context it self

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah i agree with planck, and also there are no contradict proof. Unless of course you can show it operate differently in both land

We take the most simple understanding (occam razor) for not make any assumption that far from the context it self

Occam's Razor in this case would be not assuming that two cosmologies with wildly different origins for everything somehow happen to have identical systems in place for their souls and afterlives. Like, if the magic page is to be believed, magic, souls, and lifeforce are the same, so souls only came into being when Chaos did (as Chaos is the primordial of life), but even though Chaos is strictly limited to the Greek pantheon, their creation of souls also somehow applied to the Norse pantheon as well? This is also excluding how the page also insinuates magic came before Chaos but jfc this is already enough of a clusterfuck as is so I'll save that for later

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, he doesn't make any distinction because he doesn't need to. They're in the Nine Realms when he says this, why on earth would he be referring to souls from a world that literally does not exist anymore?

To add onto this, Mimir doesn't really know enough about Kratos' homeland to say with certainty that souls work the same over there. You can see that with his curiosity regarding the nature of Grecian magic (which is the same as the soul, according to the explanation page; For a guy who supposedly knows about Grecian souls, he doesn't seem to know an awful lot about something that's supposedly a synonym for them). He's saying this in broad terms because he's just assuming it all works the same, when we have no reason to believe that's true.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Occam's Razor in this case would be not assuming that two cosmologies with wildly different origins for everything somehow happen to have identical systems in place for their souls and afterlives. Like, if the magic page is to be believed, magic, souls, and lifeforce are the same, so souls only came into being when Chaos did (as Chaos is the primordial of life), but even though Chaos is strictly limited to the Greek pantheon, their creation of souls also somehow applied to the Norse pantheon as well? This is also excluding how the page also insinuates magic came before Chaos but jfc this is already enough of a clusterfuck as is so I'll save that for later

Surtr explains to us that the origin of Primordial elements doesn't matter, and indicates that they will work similarly if not identically. So one can see that they both have similar nature, and considering that life(and by extension magic and soul) are Primordial elements, they would be included.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

To add onto this, Mimir doesn't really know enough about Kratos' homeland to say with certainty that souls work the same over there. You can see that with his curiosity regarding the nature of Grecian magic (which is the same as the soul, according to the explanation page; For a guy who supposedly knows about Grecian souls, he doesn't seem to know an awful lot about something that's supposedly a synonym for them). He's saying this in broad terms because he's just assuming it all works the same, when we have no reason to believe that's true.

Mimir is from another pantheon himself, and came to the norse pantheon the same way Kratos did. He definitely is more knowledgeable than you paint him to be on how the overall verse and innerconnecting cosmologies between pantheons work. You just seem to be attempting to slander him as not being a valid source of information on the topic, which I hope isn't some grand attempt to denounce his statements on the souls altogether. His role primarily within the verse is being a legit mouthpiece.

 

[Deagonx]

I hope isn't some grand attempt to denounce his statements on the souls altogether.

Regardless of the validity of his statement, a great deal of it will change. The soul containing "luck" or having "luck" as one of it's constituent parts doesn't justify Probability Manip being given to anyone that does something soul or magic related, for instance. It's strange that it was ever characterized that way in the first place.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mimir is from another pantheon himself, and came to the norse pantheon the same way Kratos did. He definitely is more knowledgeable than you paint him to be on how the overall verse and innerconnecting cosmologies between pantheons work. You just seem to be attempting to slander him as not being a valid source of information on the topic, which I hope isn't some grand attempt to denounce his statements on the souls altogether.

So why doesn't he know how Grecian magic works? Like, if magic is truly, genuinely the same across pantheons, then why would he need to ask Kratos about Grecian magic instead of just going "been there, seen that, brother. It's all the same no matter where you go, you know?"? I'm not trying to discredit Mimir, but I also don't think we should assume every statement he makes applies to a dead world he has never visited and clearly has little knowledge on, let alone assume that those statements are accurate.

Surtr explains to us that the origin of Primordial elements doesn't matter, and indicates that they will work similarly if not identically. So one can see that they both have similar nature, and considering that life(and by extension magic and soul) are Primordial elements, they would be included.

One can substitute for the other, yeah. I don't think that justifies them being one and the same, though. Sometimes I use olive oil as a substitute for vegetable oil when I make food, but that doesn't mean olive oil and vegetable oil are identical to one another. Greek magic being able to kickstart Ragnarok doesn't really require it to be tied to the mind, or a person's luck, or their concepts, or what have you.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

So why doesn't he know how Grecian magic works? Like, if magic is truly, genuinely the same across pantheons, then why would he need to ask Kratos about Grecian magic instead of just going "been there, seen that, brother. It's all the same no matter where you go, you know?"? I'm not trying to discredit Mimir, but I also don't think we should assume every statement he makes applies to a dead world he has never visited and clearly has little knowledge on, let alone assume that those statements are accurate.

The only thing mimir didn't know was the complex consequences of a pantheon being erased because it had never happened before, nobody knows the consequences of a pantheon being nuked off the map. Mimir asking kratos to elaborate on his pantheon doesn't invalidate mimir having knowledge on it. Mimir knows all the Gods, he knows all the stories and legends, he knows the magic they wielded, he knows of kratos, his epithets, and his exploits. Obviously kratos is going to know more about his homeland being a first party witness to many things and being culturally raised there, becoming a God in that pantheon, and being the sole perpetrator of said pantheon being destroyed. Mimir is blatantly knowledgeable on all the pantheons in a general aspect and even an in more depth viewpoint as well, his journal writings in Ragnarok hammer this home when he speaks about artifacts from a vast array of different pantheons, his dialogue in 2018 in tyr's vault does also.

 

[Planck69]

Aetheric puts it best. Him being willing to ask a first party about his pantheon isn't a complete lack of knowledge on it. And even his fascination with Grecian magic came more from how the gods wielded it there in a unique manner compared to Norse, and he says as much.

 

[Fixxed]

Occam's Razor in this case would be not assuming that two cosmologies with wildly different origins for everything somehow happen to have identical systems in place for their souls and afterlives. Like, if the magic page is to be believed, magic, souls, and lifeforce are the same, so souls only came into being when Chaos did (as Chaos is the primordial of life), but even though Chaos is strictly limited to the Greek pantheon, their creation of souls also somehow applied to the Norse pantheon as well? This is also excluding how the page also insinuates magic came before Chaos but jfc this is already enough of a clusterfuck as is so I'll save that for later

Different origin not matter, if it same thing it still same thing regardless where it come from. If it operate the same way and we have other thing (primordial fire) for comparision that literally come from different place that being taken as the same thing in the verse, soul are same in any land are a simple understanding. You must give a proof for debunk that, not just give more asumption and understanding that will make it more far from the context than the simple one

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The only thing mimir didn't know was the complex consequences of a pantheon being erased because it had never happened before, nobody knows the consequences of a pantheon being nuked off the map. Mimir asking kratos to elaborate on his pantheon doesn't invalidate mimir having knowledge on it. Mimir knows all the Gods, he knows all the stories and legends, he knows the magic they wielded, he knows of kratos, his epithets, and his exploits. Obviously kratos is going to know more about his homeland being a first party witness to many things and being culturally raised there, becoming a God in that pantheon, and being the sole perpetrator of said pantheon being destroyed. Mimir is blatantly knowledgeable on all the pantheons in a general aspect and even an in more depth viewpoint as well, his journal writings in Ragnarok hammer this home when he speaks about artifacts from a vast array of different pantheons, his dialogue in 2018 in tyr's vault does also.

Yeah, he knows all the stories/legends/languages/magics of the Norse pantheon. Assuming his "smartest man alive" epithet applies to literally every single pantheon in the verse, many of which he's never visited and some of which no longer exist, is a massive NLF. As it stands, there's no reason to assume he'd understand the fundamental nature of the Greek cosmology, metaphysical aspects included; That's a far cry from just knowing who Kratos is and what he did. Like, I know who Joe Biden is, but that doesn't mean I know his blood type, the nuclear launch codes, and what he had for lunch yesterday.

Also, the Tyr's vault dialogue is literally just "yeah that's from a desert that has a lot of gods", which again is radically different from understanding the nature of fundamental forces of nature in that pantheon.

Different origin not matter, if it same thing it still same thing regardless where it come from. If it operate the same way and we have other thing (primordial fire) for comparision that literally come from different place that being taken as the same thing in the verse, soul are same in any land are a simple understanding. You must give a proof for debunk that, not just give more asumption and understanding that will make it more far from the context than the simple one

This is shifting the burden of proof. It's GoW supporters' jobs to substantiate the claims they make, and that includes souls being the same across pantheons. This is still ignoring blatant contradictions, like how Chaos (a Greek primordial) is somehow the origin of souls/magic, but magic in the Norse pantheon came from Ginnunganap. So did Chaos create the verse's souls, or did Ginnunganap? If souls in the Norse pantheon have their direction to the afterlife as a fundamental part of their being, then why does Hermes have to ferry souls into the Underworld? Shouldn't the soul's "direction" guide them there automatically, seeing as how that's how it works in the Nordic realms?

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Yeah, he knows all the stories/legends/languages/magics of the Norse pantheon. Assuming his "smartest man alive" epithet applies to literally every single pantheon in the verse, many of which he's never visited and some of which no longer exist, is a massive NLF. As it stands, there's no reason to assume he'd understand the fundamental nature of the Greek cosmology, metaphysical aspects included; That's a far cry from just knowing who Kratos is and what he did. Like, I know who Joe Biden is, but that doesn't mean I know his blood type, the nuclear launch codes, and what he had for lunch yesterday.

You're saying that Mimir is only knowledgeable about the norse pantheon then saying the only way he can be knowledgeable about other ones is if he knows the nuclear launch codes and what each God ate for lunch every day? Quite the correlation, but no nobody is proposing mimir is omnipotent. And yes, mimir does know legends and stories about pantheons outside of the norse one. This is self evident within basic interactions within the games, he knows about the tragedy of the theban king, he knows about the trojan horse, he knows about the 300 spartans and the hot gates. He knows about stage plays performed in greece. He knows about kratos in Playstation All Stars (even if this one was to poke fun) it showcases this is how the developers presented him. And as I mentioned before, mimir speaks in depth about artifacts found from other pantheons, the journal entires are from his Point of View.






This single image is the only time in the games where mimir is at a total loss about something from another pantheon. He even flippantly remarks about how this is the first time and that it is unlikely to happen again.

 

[Fixxed]

This is shifting the burden of proof. It's GoW supporters' jobs to substantiate the claims they make, and that includes souls being the same across pantheons. This is still ignoring blatant contradictions, like how Chaos (a Greek primordial) is somehow the origin of souls/magic, but magic in the Norse pantheon came from Ginnunganap. So did Chaos create the verse's souls, or did Ginnunganap? If souls in the Norse pantheon have their direction to the afterlife as a fundamental part of their being, then why does Hermes have to ferry souls into the Underworld? Shouldn't the soul's "direction" guide them there automatically, seeing as how that's how it works in the Nordic realms?

The supporter only follow the basic logic of the context, mimit dont makes a distinction between kratos and atreus soul

Contradict?? How can came from different origin being a contradiction?
When kratos death i dont see hermes doing his job, his soul automatically go to underworld. And the "direction" more like a "ticket for enter" the afterlife because if you not have it you are denied by afterlife

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Contradict?? How can came from different origin being a contradiction?

Because they can't both be true at the same time? Like, either Ginnunganap created everybody's souls, or Chaos did. They can't both be responsible at the same time, just like I can't say "I posted this thread, but Deagonx also posted this thread". How would that even work? Are Chaos and Ginnunganap the same? Did Chaos create Ginnunganap? You can't really reconcile two different origins across two different pantheons like this, and you haven't really tried, either.

When kratos death i dont see hermes doing his job, his soul automatically go to underworld. And the "direction" more like a "ticket for enter" the afterlife because if you not have it you are denied by afterlife

That doesn't really change the fact that that's how it's supposed to work in Greek myth. Are you suggesting that Hermes ferrying the dead is wrong?

 

[Georredannea15]

Also doesn't Kratos's soul operate this same way despite being from the Greek Pantheon? I do see the concern but based on what we know, I don't believe different Pantheons would cause any stark differences

The fact that Kratos' soul even effected from Norse magic is actually good evidence for this, so abilities can be added across both pantheons

 

[Georredannea15]

Surtr explains to us that the origin of Primordial elements doesn't matter, and indicates that they will work similarly if not identically. So one can see that they both have similar nature, and considering that life(and by extension magic and soul) are Primordial elements, they would be included.

A small note, when we went to Surtr and when he saw BoC, he said that it could work with primordial force even though he had this magic from a different realm, and it worked.

 

[Fixxed]

Because they can't both be true at the same time? Like, either Ginnunganap created everybody's souls, or Chaos did. They can't both be responsible at the same time, just like I can't say "I posted this thread, but Deagonx also posted this thread". How would that even work? Are Chaos and Ginnunganap the same? Did Chaos create Ginnunganap? You can't really reconcile two different origins across two different pantheons like this, and you haven't really tried, either.

The problem just the origin not the thing that came from that origin. In greek land everything come from chaos and in norse everything come from ginnunganap, if different origin mean different things entirely then everything must be different in both land. If apple is fruit in greek, it is not a fruit in norse anymore?? If gravity pull you to the ground in greek, are it was push you in norse?? It not make sense if different origin mean different thing

That doesn't really change the fact that that's how it's supposed to work in Greek myth. Are you suggesting that Hermes ferrying the dead is wrong?

Then how can it not work like that on kratos??

No, what i really want to say the soul can reach the afterlife by it self, but almost all the time hermes guide them

 

[Robo432343]

You're saying that Mimir is only knowledgeable about the norse pantheon then saying the only way he can be knowledgeable about other ones is if he knows the nuclear launch codes and what each God ate for lunch every day? Quite the correlation, but no nobody is proposing mimir is omnipotent. And yes, mimir does know legends and stories about pantheons outside of the norse one. This is self evident within basic interactions within the games, he knows about the tragedy of the theban king, he knows about the trojan horse, he knows about the 300 spartans and the hot gates. He knows about stage plays performed in greece. He knows about kratos in Playstation All Stars (even if this one was to poke fun) it showcases this is how the developers presented him. And as I mentioned before, mimir speaks in depth about artifacts found from other pantheons, the journal entires are from his Point of View.






This single image is the only time in the games where mimir is at a total loss about something from another pantheon. He even flippantly remarks about how this is the first time and that it is unlikely to happen again.

this.