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Yaldabaoth Revision/ Persona Standing

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You're trying to say that Yald is >/= Philemon without actual proof. Philemon onviously still exists. What you can't prove is if/how he interacted with Yaldabaoth. Regardless I'm gonna drop this anyway since Yald being Low 2-C by his own feat makes it irrelevant.

100% of "Philemon" being captured by Chronos was symbolism. It had further implications under the assumptio that the butterfly was Philemon, but in no way is this scene them "going out of their way to pose Chronos as a threat". The butterfly is not the focus of the game. It's mentioned in passing for an optional quest, and isn't inherently tied to the plot outside of this and the aforementioned symbolism. And again, even of we threw all reasonable doubt out the window, it's still an outlier without comparable feats.

Yeah. I agree Yaldabaoth should be Low 2-C, and there was actually supposed to be a major revision for Persona that fixed that among other things but it never came. For what it's worth if this thread is just to upgrade Yaldabaoth and P5 then I'm in full support.
 
"You're trying to say that Yald is >/= Philemon without actual proof. Philemon onviously still exists. What you can't prove is if/how he interacted with Yaldabaoth. Regardless I'm gonna drop this anyway since Yald being Low 2-C by his own feat makes it irrelevant."

Except no. I never said they had an interaction face to face. The interaction is Yaldabaoth entering Philemon's realm (fact) hogtying, and soul splitting the current staff (fact), sealing the velvet room under his control in Mementos (fact) and using it for his own devilish plan against humanity.

So once again, unless Philemon doesn't exist, he either didn't care (goes against his character), wasn't aware (highly unlikely), or was helpless to stop Yald (most likely).

"100% of "Philemon" being captured by Chronos was symbolism. It had further implications under the assumptio that the butterfly was Philemon, but in no way is this scene them "going out of their way to pose Chronos as a threat"."

What? This doesn't make sense and your conclusion is simply stated? What were they trying to portray with the symbolism? It is confirmed philemon...I went into this above, the only butterfly character that is blue in P3/4 is phil. This game directly involves those cast.

So tell me what the symbolism is supposed to represent, if not it being directly symbolical of philemon being trapped in Chronos realm, and unable to free himself.

"The butterfly is not the focus of the game. It's mentioned in passing for an optional quest, and isn't inherently tied to the plot outside of this and the aforementioned symbolism."

So what? How does that mitigate the scene itself? this is a complete non sequitur to my argument. The fact that a quest exist at all, and Atlus put these scenes at the beginning and end of the game is clearly representative of it's importance. Once again, what symbolism are you taking away from this other than the clear subtext?

It can't be an outlier because it's the first time Chronos is introduced, and thus given the first thing we see is him trapping Phil, and needing to be taken down by Sees and invest persona teams IN ADDITION to half of himself (also meaning half of him was all that's needed to trap Phil.), there is no prior precedence to evlaute him at and thus call an outlier. He's being introduced as stronger, and his feat is trapping Phil, and battling so many strong characters.

"Yeah. I agree Yaldabaoth should be Low 2-C, and there was actually supposed to be a major revision for Persona that fixed that among other things but it never came. For what it's worth if this thread is just to upgrade Yaldabaoth and P5 then I'm in full support."

Yeah that was the main point of this thread. We just got lost in a good debate, but most of those points were there to simply bolster the idea that Yald is 2-C, and dispel the notion that Phil and Nyar can't be surpassed and thus no one can past universal.

I appreciate your time and effort.
 
In all honesty, it was my fault we derailed from the thread topic and I'll apologize for that. I disagree with scaling Chronos to Philemon but that's a separate discussion that deserves its own thread.

Derailment aside, tier 2 Yaldabaoth has my support.
 
Matt and Dragon were the ones who frequent Persona the most and could perhaps help. I am sort of neutral, but ill probably default to what Matthew Schroeder thinks. Edit: I also could be wrong, but I think we had this discussion when someone made a blog post and the changes were never done. I think it was by Ultima Reality.
 
I'd rather not have someone vote who is going to sheep off of another tbh. Matt's been in here already so not sure if he cares one way or another. Don't know who Dragon is.
 
Dr. whiteee said:
I'd rather not have someone vote who is going to sheep off of another tbh. Matt's been in here already so not sure if he cares one way or another. Don't know who Dragon is.
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Matt is the one by default in charge of SMT and Persona, so you have to bug him on his wall.

Dragonmasterxyz.

Admin. Post on their walls to comment here.
 
There is no conclusion yet, since they need other users/admins knowledble about the verse to give their opinion about the upgrade for Yaldabaoth and the EoG P5 cast to Low 2-C.
 
Does that mean at least low 2-C Ren Amamiya or even low 2-C Persona 5 main cast?

At least also help out on quantifying the P5 main cast speeds as well.

Very thanks.
 
The problem with this is two-three fold:

1. Scaling from Persona Q, a Spin-Off of questionable canon (No, a reddit post by an unknown Atlus USA Employee isn't enough)

2. Asserting that Chronos is stronger than Philemon simply because of the butterfly (Philemon's symbol) overlayed over Chronos' web.

3. Also asserting that Yaldabaoth is stronger than Philemon because Philemon didn't intervene.

Understand something, in the Persona Universe supernatural entities are born out of the collective unconscious of humanity. This includes gods like Izanami, Erebus, Yaldabaoth, Chronos, etc, and possibly Nyx too (If you disregard the ridiculous background story given in the guidebook which says that she's a giant alien that crashed onto Earth and became the moon).

Philemon, alongside Nyarlathotep, is the Collective Unconscious. They are each two halves of it. They control and embody it.

By definition it makes no sense for a being born out of the collective unconscious to be stronger than either of them.

Now, with all that out of the way, Yaldabaoth could be Low 2-C due to merging Reality and the Metaverse together, potentially.
 
I think that Matthew seems to make sense.
 
@Matthew Schroeder

> Who decides that? What makes you say "it isn't enough"? That seems like a blank assertation. Atlus pretty much confirmed that all of them are canon which is why they go through the trouble of "erasing the casts" memory, which is to explain why no one remembers anything. Otherwise if it didn't matter why explain that aspect away? They are clearly fitting them into canon. They even made sure to make Q2 happen before the events of the school festival in P5, so that they could explain why Akechi is apart of the team. Same with the fighting games. Simply asserting "they aren't canon" doesn't really counter any arguments.

> What is this? This isn't an argument? "Philemon's symbol" no, confirmed by ATLUS to actually be philemon. Even if we went with your arbitrary assumption, what would that mean in the context? We straight up see Chronos in a cutscene with Philemon trapped, which means it was confirmed to be happening in real time. What does that scene mean to you matthew? Why did Atlus put that scene in the game? I genuinly want to hear your explanation.

> This argument makes no sense and is attempting to bypass actual feats, by appealing to some work around answer. PHilemon and Nyx are two aspects of the collective unconscious. Just like Yaldabaoth is. Yaldabaoth is the thing's treasure, and mementos is blank stated to be the collective unconscious. Yaldabaoth rules over all of that and like other palace treasures, is responsible for sustaining it.

Philemon straight ups says that using the power of the collective unconscious will unlock the power that created the cosmos, implying he is not the same energy source. Philemon and Nyx are both born of the collective unconscious as well. PHilemon is literally the archetype of the watchful guardian, which is a construct like "the shadow" from Jungian psychology.

"I am Philemon, a dweller in the rift between consciousness and unconsciousness of all souls... I am you. You are me... I shall always watch over you from within. Farewell..."

Philemon is powerful because he is the aspect of the collective unconscious that guides humanity. I don't know where you are getting this Philemon and Nyar are half anf half each, that doesn't even make sense.

So you attempting to make this hierarchy argument doesn't work, especially in the case of Yaldabaoth who you have yet to address why Philemon being so much stronger, did nothing to Yald taking over the Velvet room from his possession, and the fact that Yaldabaoth is the collective unconscious treasure/ruler.

Your argument also would not work for any of the persona protagonist who reach a level comparable to Nyx and Philemon.

It wasn't just reality and the metaverse, but also the velvet room. Which also makes it a merging feat of 3 levels of existence.
 
Please dont reply to large blocks of text. Also, Atlus confirmed this? Source for this claim? Again, source for Atlus confirming this Philemon? All I am seeing here is sort of wishy washy statements without an inkling of proof.
 
Matt directly referenced the confirmation. From an Atlust employee which Matt tries to attack by adding "US" employee as if that takes away from his credibility. It was info directly released to the public, but since the game wasn't established in U.S he didn't explain why it was canon at the time. But there are direct tie ins to Ultimax story resolutions which is also canon.

https://www.siliconera.com/2014/06/20/persona-q-shadow-labyrinths-story-canon/

I literally just further elaborated on in game steps Atlus takes to ensure it makes sense to fit into canon. I'm not sure where the "evidence" of it not being canon is either?

I posted the relevant link in this thread. Not sure how "Yeah Philemon is P3/P4 universe. He is the butterfly watching over them" is a "wishy washy" statement.

All of the spin off games are directly tied into the story timelines, and include information from other games as direct tie ins such as Makoto's return being explained in regards to ultimax. The persona Q manga adaptations are titled: Side: P3 and Side: P4 and reference them as side stories to the main canon which the original p3/p4 mangas were written.
 
Dr. whiteee said:
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It sort of does. A random employee can say "oh yeah, that is canon."

Well, doesn't mean he is the director or design time, which has the ultimate authority. Also, he states this as he can't 'comment why' it is canon.,

So not sure if I wanna take his claim seriously, call me incredulous, but I just don't believe a random guy saying it is without further proof.

I was referring to you not having proof until you commented.

If we trusted everything creators said, DMC will be Universal now js.

Also, you say "utlimax is canon?"

I am not gonna scroll up for that if you said it earlier, this thread is sort of long. My bad dude.

But I need a source of this too?

As for the representive claim, that can be defined as inconclusive.

Can you please link the sources for where it was stated this Philemon is the same one and how ultimax is canon?
 
Dude what are you talking about? An employee of a company, giving news to media outlets about a game he is localizing, is not going to lie.

It is quoted from a US Atlus employee. I don't care about fan speculation based off of being mad a game is canon. Unless you have info the quote is fake, you work for Atlus yourself, or any other informationr relevant, it really doesn't matter.

No. Do not try and confound this with nonsense logic. Universal Dante is not only debateable, but that's a whole different context. That is word of god without any corroborating feats.

This isn't remotely close. This is a statement about canonicity, which is obviously a meta concept outside of the game consistency. This is an employee introducing the game for the US Atlus company. Not sure at all how you are trying to compare the two.

Yes the spin off games are canon. Some like PQ have been stated to be canon, Atlus has told us when games aren't canon. Furthermore you are ignoring my arguments. Atlus ties them directly into the main canon storylines. Ultimax games are statred to occur a year after the events of the main game and have tie ins. The person casts has it's memory whiped to explain why they don't recall meeting eachother, Pq2 happens in a timeline directly made so it would make sense why Akechi is present in the PHantom Thieves prior to the events in P5 which would make that impossible.

If you aren't gonna read the thread ( and thus a culmination of my arguments), and just coattail of of matthew then I have no business discussing things with you. No offense.
 
Dr. whiteee said:
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Really? It was one of the arguments Matt himself used. Kamiya is unreliable.

Same with random atlus employee.

I just am asking for a source dude? How hard is it to link a source? And tying them into main canon storylines also need a source?

That isnt that hard dude.
 
Sins of man. I literally just explained to you how your argument is terrible. Nothing about your response countered my point, and idk why you referenced Matt. I do not ride him.

This is what you are apparently failing to comprehend...

> The statement is debatable in the first place. Which is why some people use it as evidence, so Idk why you are acting like everyone 100% takes it as non reliable.

> Two: The context are once again, completely different. Kamiya is making a statement about Dante's power level inside of his verse. The reason it isn't accepted largely, is due to no corroborating feats in the main storyline.

> We aren't talking about feats with persona...We are talking about it's canonicity or tie in into the direct storyline games....An employee at E3 gave away this information which is why he couldn't spoil it. This isn't a real human being talking about the theoretical power yield of a fictional character. It's an employee that is apart of the company, releasing info about a new game at a major gaming event.

You are committing a blatant equivocation fallacy and as I said earlier. Any official ATLUS member important enough to disclose info for the company at E3 >>>>>>>>>>>> Fan's whining. Stop acting like some janitor that worked at Atlus for a week is where the souce comes from. At least TRY to be objective.

The source is literally in this thread. Why should I spend the minutes searching that up when you can literally scroll up?

I am not about to explain all the tie ins between multiple dozen to hundred hour games further than I ALREADY EXPLAINED to you. Which for whatever reason you continue to ignore as well.

Essentially what I am getting is you didn't read the thread, have no context as to what's being talked about, and simply agreed with Matthew (after once again reading nothing else) and simply agreed with him, which is why you are here now asking for sources which have already been posted, and general persona knowledge.
 
The summary given for PQ when Atlus released details about the team and story

"In the rural town area of Yasoinaba, it is the final day of the culture festival at Yasogami High School. But when the toll of a bell suddenly rings, those with the ability to use a Persona are summoned to another world. In this realm—the spitting image of Yasogami High School—an ominous clock tower appears. Inside the school, the cast meets Zen and Rei, a boy and girl whose memories have been snatched away. When the bell tolls, the curtain opens on a new battle for the Persona cast."
Read more at https://gematsu.com/2013/12/persona...story-characters-detailed#9rlJQ0iqVfJ52ifv.99

Clearly a direct tie in the events of Persona 4, and clearly referncing the same cast.

Dancing All night?

The summer after the solving the Yasoinaba case, Rise returned to the city to continue her idol career. But at the time she arrived, a strange urban legend was catching on in the city. At midnight, when you open a certain website, a strange video will play. Those who view the video are taken to "The Other Side," never to awaken again. With this, the main characters are taken away to that world and discover it is called the "Mayonaka Stage," and that the junior idol group members at Rise's office "Kanamin Kitchen" are being held captive there. "We can't just let this be! We've got to help!" Persona 4 protagonist Yu Narukami puts out an SOS to his Investigation Team allies. Together, you'll invade the Mayonaka Stage and rescue the junior idols.
Read more at https://gematsu.com/2013/12/persona...story-characters-detailed#digJL8QDLrzxRMMY.99

Direct story tie in? Check. Direct reference to P4 protagonist? Check.

The same thing hapens with PQ2

Add that in with Atlus US conformation.

Add that to persona magazine feb 2015 edition official timeline
 
Dr. whiteee said:
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I like how you link the sources for someone else and not for me.

Well, regarding the above. I am sort of neutral.

I am fine with it, I guess.

Ask Matt.

Also, I didn't use an equivocation fallacy. I just said, and I still am correct:

"Kamiya is unreliable."

Yeah, and I proved you wrong. One of the things we used to downgrade DMC was that Kamiya is unrealiable as a 'word of god'.

I still sort of think the same with random atlus employee, but I guess the sources seem to imply some mind wiping, so I am unsure what to think.
 
Neutral about what? That is atlus literally telling you it takes place in the same timeline, and even showing us via a gift wrapped timeline of how they interact?

No you didn't. You just keep repeating yourself. Word of God in regards to feats isn't accepted because Feats > everything (and like I said it's debatable). Canonicity is not at all similar hence your fallacy. If someone with the authority to make the claim (word of god), claims that X is canon. It's canon by literal definition lmao.

Kamiya being unreliable about his verses power in comparison to feats present in the video games, has no correlation to a Company executive making claims as at the biggest video game presentation in the world. The executive is being tasked to represent the game. They obviously have knowledge given they are officially responsible for localization.

Their is no "unreliable" baseline to compare, unless you believe that the person made it up (despite the clear evidence above) or that Atlus in Japan didn't communicate anything to the staff, sent them to E3 and allowed them localization.
 
Also in regards to scaling for low 2-C stuff, it would only apply to Yald and Satanael Joker. Potentially ultimate persona's of each arcana for Joker, but meh. Everything prior to Satanael is pretty much a joke, and when Yald gets serious (you essentially fight the weapons) he one shots everyone.

Seperate Point: Palace 1 Rem and the bunch should be Moon level for keeping one bound in his palace. Kamoshida palace contains one (which also implies it has a sun, but I'm willing to accept it being some cogntive moon that shine on its own).
 
Also, Dr. whiteee tone down the hostility please. People will be much more likely to listen to you that way.
 
I honestly tuned out cuz of this guy. Glad it isnt just me. Im unfollowing this thread. Change if you want, I dont care. As long as Matt is okay with it, I dont care anymore.
 
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