Wilson Fisk (Marvel Comics) upgrade ?

[ItalianGuy1234]

The profile for Kingpin lists him as "At least 9-A" based on his own feat of destroying a rock, however Fisk has feats that could place him at 8-C:

1) He was blatantly capable of matching and overpowering Captain America in Captain America vol.1 #147 with Cap very clearly being defeated until he got rescued by Falcon;


2) In Captain America vol.1 #347 Fisk fights and pretty easily defeats Red Skull in unharmed combat, not only does he defeat him but he also pretty casually threatens to crush his skull and kill him, this is notably impressive as Skull already possessed Captain America's body at this time;

So, based on the evidence presented Kingpin should deserve to be"At least 9-A likely 8-C" with Daredevil scaling to him since he can battle the Kingpin and has in fact beaten him more than once (on top of having traded blows with Captain America).

 

[Lonkitt]

Surprised no one's commented on this

 

[Coolboy6]

I agree. Why wasn’t he 8-C before lol?

 

[Confluctor]

Impress is gonna have a field day with this


Any other tier 8 feats for him?

 

[Lonkitt]

I agree. Why wasn’t he 8-C before lol?

Unlike a lot of Marvel Tier 8's, he doesn't get himself into too many situations where explosives or flammables are nearby

 

[The_Impress]

Red Skull's file's shit, so don't use him for rigid scaling. For all intents and purposes he may as well be 9-A in that scan.

And like, the Captain America scan you provide, literally the next scan has him getting his ass handed to him by Falcon.

At the end of the day however, dude's been a 9-A threat far more often than an 8-C threat.

Even between tier 8s I'd say he's more consistently High 8-C than he is 8-C, lol

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

@The_Impress Red Skull at that point had already been resurrected and been given the body of captain america, in fact the arc before this one is where he gets it if I am not mistaken, so by all accounts he should be 8-C in physicals.

So? For one, if you read the comic the only thing that happens is that Kingpin get's distracted right before he can finish off Cap and then Falcon and Cap proceed to restrain him for a bit until red skull shows up, at no point does Falcon trade blows or injure the Kingpin, the most scaling he could get is Class K since him and Cap manage to restrain him and secondly Falcon could just be "possibly 8-C" outright.

Kingpin's other feats are stomping the punisher, stomping daredevil (until the end of vol.1 where DD actually gets his first dub), he is consistently depicted as one of the strongest non superhumans in marvel comics and the only people who have legit beaten him in a physical fight are Spiderman and Daredevil (who has feats of trading blows with other 8-Cs like Wolverine, Black Panther, Taskmaster & Cap anyway even beating the former three), he has no anti feats whatsoever in this regard.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Impress is gonna have a field day with this


Any other tier 8 feats for him?

well, in his 2017 mini series he overpowered Tombstone very badly and with just one hand and in daredevil's 2019 run he was able to bash Hammerhead so hard he completely busted his face and beat him down, problem is both Tombstone and Hammerhead are High 8-C+ so I don't think that's usable.

 

[The_Impress]

@The_Impress Red Skull at that point had already been resurrected and been given the body of captain america, in fact the arc before this one is where he gets it if I am not mistaken, so by all accounts he should be 8-C in physicals.

My bad

So? For one, if you read the comic the only thing that happens is that Kingpin get's distracted right before he can finish off Cap and then Falcon and Cap proceed to restrain him for a bit

...are you now going to argue restraining Kingpin is actually completely irrelevant to physicals? Like I know we separate LS and AP, but it's still done with logic. You can't just get laughably unscaleable LS feats to your Attack Potency, unless it's a blatantly overtime restraint, this isn't, Falcon very quickly overpower and restrains Kingpin, and Cap contributes further.

until red skull shows up, at no point does Falcon trade blows or injure the Kingpin, the most scaling he could get is Class K since him and Cap manage to restrain him and secondly Falcon could just be "possibly 8-C" outright.

Yeah everyone who touches Kingpin is possibly 8-C outright., why even have 9-A anyways.

Can you rq just give me a list of folks you wanna upgrade in a single thread? Will be easier to keep track.

Kingpin's other feats are stomping the punisher,

...yes because Kingpin laughably outskills Punisher

His "stomps" against Punisher all feel blatantly skill/battle strategy-based, and any upscale in strength is implied to be relatively minor at best, to what you're suggesting.

stomping daredevil (until the end of vol.1 where DD actually gets his first dub),

Do these fights just not exist now?

he is consistently depicted as one of the strongest non superhumans in marvel comics

This is just factually incorrect, mind you

Daredevil (who has feats of trading blows with other 8-Cs like Wolverine, Black Panther, Taskmaster & Cap anyway even beating the former three)

Unless you're planning on making a Daredevil upgrade, irrelevant shit

Daredevil doesn't fight any of the other characters as many times as he does Kingpin regardless.

he has no anti feats whatsoever in this regard.

Getting his ass handed to him by Daredevil, the three times alone I listed, are enough antifeats.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

@The_Impress

So you concede on the red skull fight.

No, what I am saying is the following: we can backscale falcon to class k for restraining kingpin and "a possibly higher / 8-C" for effectively restraing Fisk with the aid of captain america or just rate him at classs k but not scale his attack potency to 8-C, it's weird but this is fiction so something like this could happen.

I already said who should be scaled up: Daredevil who would get "At least 9-A likely 8-C" since he has battled and defeated the Kingpin more than once.

Fisk and Castle have fought about three times, one battle was off screen and we didn't see how it went down however the other two blatantly shown frank being easily overpowered by Fisk, him failing to even draw blood with punches and kicks and Fisk also having better quick thinking and strategy despite Frank having prep and weapons, legit the only time he even injures Kingpin is when he kicks a combat knife in his chest and Wilson just walks it off and proceeds to whoop Castle.

I already said DD scales to Fisk at least by the end of vol.1 which ends with issue #380, the first fight you posted is directly taken from the final issue of the first daredevil series, at this point Daredevil is clearly in his prime, the second link is taken from the fall of the kingpin series, for context Fisk was on the verge of having a mental breakdown because he could have lost all of his criminal empire, which actually ends up happening because of Daredevil, Kingpin didn't really lose this fight with Matt physically, but metaphorically, all it shows in this scuffle is that there's relativity between the two in terms of stats, the third fight you posted is from the bendis run so it's way after volume 1 with Daredevil at this point having improved across many arcs.

Yes, Daredevil is also being upgraded here, he very relevant just like the "shit" I said is actually far from being unimportant since I am explaining why losing to Devil isn't an anti feat, you can keep being snarky and ignorant or you can actually listen to what I bring to the table.

Kingpin fighting Daredevil more times than he fights Cap is due to Fisk being involved with other settings like Hell's Kitchen compared to Cap who is inda global, for that matter this wiki scales other people to 8-c despite having never fought US Agent, this isn't a good argument: we have two blantant 8-C tier feats for Fisk.

You need to explain why Daredevil is anti feat when Daredevil himself has traded blows with Captain America who verbatim states he wasn't holding back, has feats of fighting evenly sometimes outright beating 8-Cs like Black Panther, Wolverine ,Taskmaster,Winter Soldier etc.

 

[Lonkitt]

Should we get some more input from supporters?

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Should we get some more input from supporters?

Yes.

 

[The_Impress]

@The_Impress

So you concede on the red skull fight.

Concession that Red Skull was 8-C during it, yeah.

No, what I am saying is the following: we can backscale falcon to class k for restraining kingpin and "a possibly higher / 8-C" for effectively restraing Fisk with the aid of captain america or just rate him at classs k but not scale his attack potency to 8-C, it's weird but this is fiction so something like this could happen.

...it CAN happen, but unless there are mechanics present, we'll not treat it AS happening.

I already said who should be scaled up: Daredevil who would get "At least 9-A likely 8-C" since he has battled and defeated the Kingpin more than once.

Daredevil like, genuinely has far more antifeats than Kingpin mate, if this is your argument. I want you to realize this, because now we're no longer discussing just him.

Fisk and Castle have fought about three times, one battle was off screen and we didn't see how it went down however the other two blatantly shown frank being easily overpowered by Fisk, him failing to even draw blood with punches and kicks and Fisk also having better quick thinking and strategy despite Frank having prep and weapons, legit the only time he even injures Kingpin is when he kicks a combat knife in his chest and Wilson just walks it off and proceeds to whoop Castle.

And not in a SINGLE way that implied "TIERS APART" upscale, only implication derived is, Kingpin is stronger by a slight bit (already listed), and more importantly, far more skilled.

I already said DD scales to Fisk at least by the end of vol.1 which ends with issue #380, the first fight you posted is directly taken from the final issue of the first daredevil series, at this point Daredevil is clearly in his prime

...Daredevil has no prime.

the second link is taken from the fall of the kingpin series, for context Fisk was on the verge of having a mental breakdown because he could have lost all of his criminal empire, which actually ends up happening because of Daredevil, Kingpin didn't really lose this fight with Matt physically

Blood drawn disagrees.

the third fight you posted is from the bendis run so it's way after volume 1 with Daredevil at this point having improved across many arcs

Refer to prior post, Daredevil has no notable strength evolution. You have to prove this explicitly.

We're not inventing mechanics because you feel so.

Kingpin fighting Daredevil more times than he fights Cap is due to Fisk being involved with other settings like Hell's Kitchen compared to Cap who is inda global

Irrelevant point

For that matter this wiki scales other people to 8-c despite having never fought US Agent, this isn't a good argument: we have two blantant 8-C tier feats for Fisk.

...yes because they're more consistently fighting 8-Cs who directly scale to US Agent, rather than 9-As. That's the issue with Kingpin, he constantly fights a 9-A relatively even, and his feats with the rest are only implying irrelevant upscale in the grand scheme of things.

You need to explain why Daredevil is anti feat when Daredevil himself has traded blows with Captain America who verbatim states he wasn't holding back, has feats of fighting evenly sometimes outright beating 8-Cs like Black Panther, Wolverine ,Taskmaster,Winter Soldier etc.

Because Daredevil chainscales to every ******* 9-A on site, almost all of them capable of lethally harming Daredevil.

Find alternative scalings for every character listed, and the people who scale to them, or don't propose this revision, if it is legit this is a ridiculously underprepared revision, not everyone can be "Possibly" a different tier, and Daredevil isn't a fraction special.

Why the absolute hell are you stopping at 8-C, even? You YOURSELF state Kingpin has two different feats of being hit by High 8-C+s

@Antvasima @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Tllmbrg @Confluctor

 

[Confluctor]

I think his current rating is more than fine tbh. The at least bit already takes cares of it

 

[Antvasima]

The Kingpin legitimately overpowered the Red Skull when the latter was equal in raw power to Captain America, and I think that he has also occasionally been treated as a genuine threat to Spider-Man as well, yes. However, it might cause too great inconsistencies with other characters to rank him as 8-C. "Everybody can fight everybody" in Marvel Comics after all. Impress probably knows the structure for our Marvel scaling system better than I do nowadays. Maybe "At least 9-A, possibly/likely 8-C" would be more workable?

Btw: Did anybody read the Red Skull's "soap" comment above? He is so thoroughly vile that even the Kingpin, who I think that Frank Miller has depicted as systematically selling hard drugs to children, finds him nauseating.

 

[Eficiente]

On Spider-Man, he should have either a lower tier or be noted to work on lower levels of the same tier most of the time due to holding back, here's him stomping Kingpin when not holding back, no Spanish needed to understand it, and one would think that that makes no sense as Kingpin is constantly portrayed as a thread to Spider-Man and even being able to kill him in 1 blow when angry (The channel is beyond questionable but watching the video at 2x speed is a good list of Kingpin's combat record), but no Spider-Man would apperently risk his own life in battle w/ lower power rather than not holding back, which is consistent to when Dr. Octopus possessed his body and noted that he was always holding back to not grievously harm anyone, despite Octopus and Spider-Man's long history together.

The latter video above does imply Kingpin having some Rage Power that amps him, so idk, maybe something can be worked with that.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think @The_Impress ?

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

The entire purpose of this thread is to revise Kingpin's tier from at least 9-A likely 8-C since he has very clear cut feats of him operating at this level, I am not saying we should scale him to Hammerhead, Tombstone or Spiderman because that's clearly not the level Fisk operates at, consistently. He is a human in terms of inverse showings, a very powerful and strong human at that but clearly not on the same level of Luke Cage or Spiderman.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if he already has "At least 9-A" (with an implied "possibly 8-C") as a tier, I don't really mind his current statistics.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

I'd say "likely 8-C" is better since he has more than one feat on this level, Daredevil is quite literally the only street tier who has beaten the kingpin in a physical confrontation so far and his most recent runs show that he is clearly at a level above Punisher, Bullseye, Crossbones etc. when he isn't holding back.

 

[The_Impress]

I don't mind possibly 8-C if Italian can provide another scan of Kingpin fighting 8-Cs.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Sure, in Black Panther #528 Fisk engages T'Challa in a fight, we clearly see that Kingpin is holding a pretty blatant advantage in a physical fight and it is only through equipment that BP manages to snatch a win, he was clearly on the back foot until that moment.



Speaking of fighting 8-Cs Daredevil has a clear cut feat of fighting Shuri and holding the advantage throughout their duel.

 

[The_Impress]

K, you can use the Red Skull and Black Panther feat, for a Possibly 8-C

Also a note should be put up for the scaling relevance of the 8-C, which is next to none.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation. That is probably fine then.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

alright, I am glad we came to an agreement gentlemen.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem, but as Impress said, a footnote in his page regarding scaling is probably appropriate.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

@Antvasima So, who is going to do this ?
And shouldn't we cite the sources and the comics for these fights ?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know who is going to do this. Volunteers are appreciated.

References in the wiki pages are preferable, yes.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

@The_Impress can you apply the changes ?

 

[The_Impress]

Why can't you :v

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

I would do that myself, just tell me what I have to edit @The_Impress

 

[The_Impress]

Ratings + Your Scans + References for each scan you list.

I'll add the note myself later down the line

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to apply what was accepted here please?

 

[M3X_2.0]

One of the justifications is the Black Panther fight. T'Challa retired himself from being Black Panther and by consequence the king of Wakanda. He has no BP powers anymore. The point of T'Challa going to Hell's Kitchen is basically what I said, powerless and he ain't king anymore. No powers. It's a small arc called Black Panter: The man without fear and it covers issue 513 to 523 from Black Panther v1 and it goes on until 530ish or something.

And I'm pretty sure upscaling Fisk above a powerless T'Challa is wrong. We don't even rate him while powerless (rare for his character).

 

[LordTracer]

One of the justifications is the Black Panther fight. T'Challa retired himself from being Black Panther and by consequence the king of Wakanda. He has no BP powers anymore. The point of T'Challa going to Hell's Kitchen is basically what I said, powerless and he ain't king anymore. No powers. It's a small arc called Black Panter: The man without fear and it covers issue 513 to 523 from Black Panther v1 and it goes on until 530ish or something.

And I'm pretty sure upscaling Fisk above a powerless T'Challa is wrong. We don't even rate him while powerless (rare for his character).

This makes sense to me.

Also shouldn’t Fisk be “possibly 9-A+“ instead of “possibly 8-C” anyways? He scales to Red Skull in Cap’s body, and Cap is 9-A+.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Unless I'm missing something, Cap Vol 1 Issue 347 has nothing to do with Fisk.

 

[Antvasima]

One of the justifications is the Black Panther fight. T'Challa retired himself from being Black Panther and by consequence the king of Wakanda. He has no BP powers anymore. The point of T'Challa going to Hell's Kitchen is basically what I said, powerless and he ain't king anymore. No powers. It's a small arc called Black Panter: The man without fear and it covers issue 513 to 523 from Black Panther v1 and it goes on until 530ish or something.

And I'm pretty sure upscaling Fisk above a powerless T'Challa is wrong. We don't even rate him while powerless (rare for his character).

Okay. The Black Panther scaling should be removed then.

This makes sense to me.

Also shouldn’t Fisk be “possibly 9-A+“ instead of “possibly 8-C” anyways? He scales to Red Skull in Cap’s body, and Cap is 9-A+.

If Captain America is 9-A+, that is what the Kingpin should scale to, yes.

 

[The_Impress]

Unless I'm missing something, Cap Vol 1 Issue 347 has nothing to do with Fisk.

...?

 

[M3X_2.0]

...?

Source for the feat is wrong. I went to readcomics searching the issue and all I find was Cap being mind controlled during 347.

 

[Rez]

Source for the feat is wrong. I went to readcomics searching the issue and all I find was Cap being mind controlled during 347.

378 is the correct source