Will vs waine

[Spinoirr]

Both are 8-A and speed is =

will:

waine:

 

[Moritzva]

Oh lordy.

How does the Shield work?

 

[Smashtwig]

Seems to be able to reflect attacks and/or nullify magic attacks

 

[Spinoirr]

Yeah thats what it does

 

[Smashtwig]

643 Tons (Will) vs 517 Tons (Waine) when I followed the links, considering that his shield attacks are way more powerful than his normal attacks, AP should be pretty even if not in Waine's favor, not that it'll matter much

 

[Moritzva]

So it reflects magic attacks, huh?

AP obviously goes to Waine, while speed goes to Will. Durability goes to Waine, but Will has much better regen and can spam shields.

Will has a bit of a conundrum. He's at at least a x2 AP disadvantage, likely higher with the shield. He's an incredibly potent fighter, and will likely attempt to make the best of it all. To start the battle, he would employ self buffs and debuff Waine's speed. He'll launch some offensive attacks, which will be reflected. Will will realize he'll have to figure out ways to get around to shield. He'll use AoE attacks, considering the shield is small, to bypass and slowly chip Waine down. If Waine gets close, Will can catch him by surprise with surprisingly high skill in melee combat, plenty of melee spells, and Soulblade. Vote Will Hohenzollern.

By the way: Will downscales pretty heavy from 643 tons. However, he has one hell of a range advantage and has plenty more versatility, plus often surprises enemies. (Enemies rarely expect the priestly, ranged mage to be adept and powerful in melee combat.)

 

[Smashtwig]

But if I recall, Waine has melee skill too. He can probably just run forwards with his shield to protect himself to drastically decrease the damage he takes. The melee spells and Soulblade can be blocked/nulled with the shield, if Waine gets close I think Will's in some big trouble, since he seems to be damaging in small chips, while all Waine has to do is get in say, 5 or so hits with his shield. This leaves Will in much more constant danger and pressure than Waine is. Not saying that it wouldn't be hard with the versatility and range.

Also, if I recall Waine's regen is just as good as Will's unless I am mistaken (EDIT: I WAS). Speaking of that, if all Waine is going to deal with is some chip damage, I doubt that isn't something Waine's Regen won't be able to deal with and kind of heal up pretty fast, and if it doesn't it at least gives Waine (along with his shield) a lot of time to get in and be very scary up close. Yes Will would have some more speed on his side, but their skill should be equal enough to the point where Waine can possibly power through attacks to get very significant blows in, as supposed to Will's minimal chip damage, which can possibly be Regened off. I'd say Waine gots this, and it's probably gonna be a bit difficult to change my mind with how little abilities these two have

 

[Moritzva]

Surprisingly, I think Will has the experience and intelligence advantage, even at close range. As well, Will has both amps and debuffs, so Will can certainly maneuver around the shield both in melee and at a range.

Also yea, Mid-Low is a helluva lot worse than Low-Mid.

 

[Spinoirr]

Also waine can be near Saturn's aura in his GoD form that has a aura hot as the core of the sun giving him 3.377698E+12J of durability

 

[Moritzva]

Could someone convert that to tons?

 

[Drag-O-Drawgon]

That's around 807 tons.

 

[Smashtwig]

I dunno, I feel like Waine can still do this, despite the buffs and skill, he's dealing with chip damage as his main problem, which as I said, can be healed off to at least some extent

 

[Moritzva]

Hm, well then it's close to a x2 advantage.

Now, x2 isn't insurmountable, but it's not good. Waine clearly has an advantage in a fair fight. However, it's worth nothing that Will can heal off most of what Waine could deal to him.

While Waine has an AP advantage, Will has basically everything else. Much higher speeds, spammable shields and regen, much more range, better skill, a sword that can damage his soul, and AoE that can't be easily reflected by the shield. Unless someone can provide an argument for how Waine can not only get into close range, but keep Will there despite his skill and speed, there's no way Waine can really win.

 

[Spinoirr]

hmmm

 

[Spinoirr]

he is skilled with hand to hand and can use his shild to block any magic attack

 

[Moritzva]

That's about it, though. Meanwhile, Will received training from his incredibly skilled brother and can even keep up with people who had trained their entire lives in melee, using surprise attacks by defying expectation to beat them down.

The shield and AP is literally Waine's only advantages.

 

[Spinoirr]

Yeah pretty much

 

[Spinoirr]

But who you tink could win

Remember he battled pre time skip taiga who has soul manipulation and his shield made it do nothing

 

[Moritzva]

Yea, Will could really get around that, regardless. While it would be nice if we could have details on how it works on the profile, one shield won't make up for literally every disadvantage.

 

[Spinoirr]

The shield absorbs KE and also absorbs magic and it took yanhald hitting it multiple times just to brake it as it is made of the strongest medal on earth

 

[Moritzva]

Even if it absorbs magic, AoE or attacks angled to hit from many different points, alongside superior combat skills, could chip him down.

 

[Smashtwig]

He could regen off the Chip Damage, like I have said before. Unless he just completely ignores that. Yes Soulblade is an option, but they both have equal combat skill since Waine has martial arts too, so that can be blocked with the shield (can't exactly just assume Will just has more skill)

 

[Moritzva]

His regen isn't that great nor close to Will's regen. As well, the AP difference is x2, not x5.

Their combat skill isn't remotely equal. Will has gotten training from people comparative to Valev in skill. And anyone close to Valev in skill would very much outclass Waine.

 

[Smashtwig]

Doesn't mean he CAN'T heal off attacks. Just because it's worse than his opponent's doesn't mean it just gets cancelled out, it's still there to aid his durability

And what if Waine is Valev level? Can't exactly just assume his skill level. (Now, I'm fairly sure he isn't, but only Spinoirr knows for sure). Even then, that doesn't mean Waine can't touch Will at all, otherwise this wouldn't be a match would it?

 

[Moritzva]

The Regenerationn helps, but not enough to no-sell.

Smashtwig, that is the definition of burden of proof. Not only that, but Spinoirr literally already stated on the profile his skill, and the difference is tremendous. Could you stop throwing around 'assuming' when I'm really only using what's been said?

It means Waine will have a lot of trouble landing a hit against a faster and more skilled opponent, and just as you said, damage Waine deals can be healed off. Except far more easily.

 

[Smashtwig]

Then I'll have to change my vote to inconclusive, both can heal off attacks from each other decently well. While Waine can't catch Will easily, I don't see Will bringing down Waine easy at all, even with the AP difference not being insurmountable.

Aight then looks like I've just missed out on the skill part. My b.

 

[Moritzva]

You haven't really stated how Will is incapable of damaging him. With the speed buffs, it'll be rather easy to hit him.

As well, Waine's regen is... rather bad. If Will simply range spams, Waine's regen would be easily overwhelmed.

Remember, it's Mid-Low. Waine's going to be taken down eventually, take real damage, and he won't be able to heal it back.

 

[Smashtwig]

I'm staying inconclusive for my reasons above. I don't think the regen is all that bad at all, especially with the durability backing him up. I think they'll just keep fighting endlessly, maybe Waine may start slipping in some scenarios, and maybe Will can as well

 

[Spinoirr]

Well waines fighting style is literally Capitan Americas fighting style with his shield, he throws it and hits people with it and blocks with it

 

[Moritzva]

Smashtwig, Mid-Low doesn't make someone invincible.

Oh, he throws the shield? Then he loses, badly. Will will simply tank a hit and grab the shield, then refuse to give it back. Without the shield, Waine really, really can't win.

So yea, Will wins decisively after Waine throws the shield.

 

[Smashtwig]

But it isn't as bad as you protray it to be, I personally think it'd be enough

 

[Moritzva]

No, it's that bad.

Also, new information has come to the table, anyways. That Waine throws the shield.

 

[Smashtwig]

I personally think it's enough.

 

[Moritzva]

But it's not about thinking, it's about how strong the attack actually is. Mid-Low only regenerates scars and large cuts. Are you claiming Will will, throughout the entire battle, be unable to do enough damage to even cut off a single finger?

Since that's what you are saying, which is extremely incorrect.

Also, view the above about the shield.

 

[Spinoirr]

Well he does have magnets on his glove so only the shield comes back to him and not other stuff like a sword

 

[Smashtwig]

So my opinion is just wrong and my vote doesn't count is what you are saying, like last time, that is absolutely fine if you think that, and I'm cool with that too. Sure, it may be objectively incorrect, but from my view, I think it's enough, even if that may indicate that for some reason I am mentally disabled. I've already stated my reasons why I think (this is my opinion) things will be inconclusive considering the facts that have been laid out on the table, and cast my vote to be inconclusive (even if it is wrong as you say it is, which again, is totally fine. Maybe I forgotten the definition of "opinion", so I should check it over again).

 

[Moritzva]

That will have to be an exceptionally powerful magnet, since chances are that Will gets rid of it, put it inside his shield, etc.

 

[Moritzva]

So my opinion is just wrong and my vote doesn't count is what you are saying, like last time, that is absolutely fine if you think that, and I'm cool with that too. Sure, it may be objectively incorrect, but from my view, I think it's enough, even if that may indicate that for some reason I am mentally disabled. I've already stated my reasons why I think (this is my opinion) things will be inconclusive considering the facts that have been laid out on the table, and cast my vote to be inconclusive (even if it is wrong as you say it is, which again, is totally fine. Maybe I forgotten the definition of "opinion", so I should check it over again).

If it's objectively incorrect, as you admitted, then you're admitting your reasoning is objectively wrong.

Since you clearly stated your reasoning is objectively wrong, and you have not countered or addressed a single point, your vote can not be counted.

 

[Moritzva]

Effectively, either argue your point or it really can't be counted. Saying "I believe it" doesn't make it true. Even if I personally believe Saitama could beat The One Above All, that's obviously not a valid vote if I don't argue it.

 

[Smashtwig]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what educated opinions are. Am I supposed just completely admit that I'm always wrong no matter how much I debate it or something? I thought the purpose of voting was to express my opinion on the matter that makes sense to me, but if that is the case I better exchange my brain with a monkey, who's probably smarter.

To me, inconclusive makes the most sense because I think the Regen will be enough. Sure others may say that it's wrong, but to me it makes sense, that's what opinions are for right? Or do I have the brain of a 4 year old?