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Why was OOA changed to unknown?

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That's like the second thread about this we got...

From what I get, there wasn't any proof of OOA being 0. The term "Omniverse" has changed in Marvel's official definition, and being above a 16 dimensional being doesn't makes you 0.
 
SaikouTouhou said:
That's like the second thread about this we got...
From what I get, there wasn't any proof of OOA being 0. The term "Omniverse" has changed in Marvel's official definition, and being above a 16 dimensional being doesn't makes you 0.
Click to expand...
Surely he'd have "at least 1B" on his profile then?

Also how do we know the Primal monitor or any other tier 0 character is tier 0? Is there a specification they have to complete? Sorry, just curious.
 
Jockey-1337 said:
"Omnipotence" is a logical blackhole while we have nothing to put him above 16-dimensional level.
Click to expand...
That's sort of the point right? Omnipotence is so beyond human comprehension we shouldn't even question it. But yeah OAA being put as unknown makes sense.
 
I think he should still be a Tier 0, and this is why:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111134695/3670046-8325351214-80337.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/22297/2622082-h3ax3.jpg

Simply put... The One Above all (While in the confines of fiction, of course) is the writer.

He's Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Brian Bendis, or anyone who writes the comic book.

This Fantastic Four comic where he appears is telling, because it literally states that all of the Marvel Multiverse / Omniverse... Is a drawing to him. He is "boundless", because anything else that exists in marvel would still be a 2D drawing to him.

Edit: Furthermore, this isn't a Gag Author Char case like Toribot or what have you. The One Above All is a legitimate character within the boundaries of the Marvel Multiverse (Omni, whatever), meant to represent the author of the story. This isn't Stan Lee popping up and going "Hi".

During the comic story who's pages I posted, the Fantastic Four meet with the One Above All within the Marvel Multiverse, and see that he's a being who draws and writes reality, and everything, incluiding them meeting him, was a product of his mind / pencil. Simply put, he is the boundless creator of Marvel, because anything else that exists in the Marvel Multiverse / Omniverse... is to him a 2D drawing.
 
I said something along the lines of him being the author but it wasn't as in-depth as what you said. I don't know if you'll convince them though.
 
Natse said:
I said something along the lines of him being the author but it wasn't as in-depth as what you said. I don't know if you'll convince them though.
Click to expand...
I think it is definitive proof of him being boundless. He is the author of Marvel, be it Uni-Multi-Mega-Omni-Whatever-Verse. Everything else in marvel is a drawing he creates. It's similar to Azathoth's dreams taking form, yet still being only his 2D dream images.

That plus every single handbook describing him as Omnipotent... should suffice.
 
Being described as omnipotent does not really mean anything unless it explicitly fulfills our tier 0 standards (for example, Odin has been called "omnipotent" several times), and even then it is just questionable/impossible to prove.

Blending reality and fiction is pure nonsense that does not mean anything. The Lord Of Nightmares beat up a representation of her creator with a shovel. The author was obviously unaffected.

Inserting a fictional representation of Jack Kirby as "God" still does not clearly define the limits that this character has within the story. We were only shown that it could resurrect the Thing and ruled a horde of angels.

Many characters have the ability to view and manipulate lower reality as fiction. It does not make them omnipotent. Featherine Augustus Aurora and The Law Of Identity are supposedly above all such levels, so all levels of all realities are fiction to them.

The notion that the representation of the dead Jack Kirby would be the same character as the OAA is pure speculation, as he was never mentioned by that name as far as I know.

Also, in the Living Tribunal's handbook profile the OAA was stated as responsible for creating the Marvel multiverse and possibly beyond, that's it.

That said, I vaguely recall that the entity was stated to have created the omniverse elsewhere in the handbooks, but this has now been retconned into something far less.
 
... Fine then. But can we at least maintain a Pre-Rector / Post-Retcon state for TOAA? Same with how Ying and Yang, Beyonder and some other chars are getting.
 
I updated my post while you typed.

Anyway, I dunno. This isn't quite a retcon. More like settling a definition of an omniverse that was only inserted by the Marvel interns in the first place, and never made any sense as such in relation to Marvel alone. The OAA was just collateral damage, not the target, and likely only has one undefined appearance in Spider-Man. Not much to retcon.
 
I'm argreed with Matt, this would probally help us avoid to answer the same question "why OAA is not Tier 0 ?" over and over again
 
Hmm. Maybe. It depends on what the other staff members think. Placing a characters at tier 0 under conditional reasons seems intuitively wrong.
 
Well, the other staff members are busy with the revision work, so I don't know if I should disturb them with this or not. I would appreciate if either of you find me the handbook scan that stated that the OAA created the omniverse. This will probably be necessary to verify his statistics.
 
It is technically not quite correct, but I created Pre- and Post-Retcon statistics. If other members think that we should strictly keep the character at Unknown, please feel free to mention it.
 
Since you asked for scans:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/125547/2966752-2964320-01.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/66762/1233349-glos2yl3.jpg

^ Old definition of the Omniverse and statement that OAA created it

New Handbook:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...ial+handbook+of+the+marvel+universe+06+29.jpg

"The Living Tribunal also helped fashion the twin Cosmic Entities the Brothers, each of whom became the guardian of a diferent Megaverse, within the larger Omniverse but emcompassing more than one Multiverse."

.. So.... The Omniverse is Marvel and DC now. What to do.

I'm guessing that it is meant to be any franchise that has crossed over with Marvel / DC? I don't know.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The new Databook says that both Marvel and DC are in it, actually.
Click to expand...
It also specified them as two megaverses smaller than the omniverse. "The omniverse is only a single Universe/Dimension etc. The omniverse is everything and there is only one omniverse".

Hence, not just Marvel and DC.
 
It was retconned in Al Ewing's recent Avengers comicbook and in his current Ultimates run.
 
However, where was it stated that the OAA created the Omniverse? That was the basis for the entity being placed at tier 0 in the first place.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Since you asked for scans:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/125547/2966752-2964320-01.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/66762/1233349-glos2yl3.jpg

^ Old definition of the Omniverse and statement that OAA created it

New Handbook:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads...ial+handbook+of+the+marvel+universe+06+29.jpg

"The Living Tribunal also helped fashion the twin Cosmic Entities the Brothers, each of whom became the guardian of a diferent Megaverse, within the larger Omniverse but emcompassing more than one Multiverse."

.. So.... The Omniverse is Marvel and DC now. What to do.

I'm guessing that it is meant to be any franchise that has crossed over with Marvel / DC? I don't know.
Click to expand...
One of the problems was the The Living Tribunal has used the word Omniverse more than once and in a smaller context. This was when he was weaker back in the WHAT IF Korvac comic when he oversaw what happens in the "omniverse". If anything the word omniverse been retconned to be something bigger. There have been other uses of the omniverse as well such as with Mad Jim Jaspers.

@Antvasima, you might want to explain in that note what the retcon is and when it happened
 
Well, it happened first in this comicbook, in which there are infinite entities beyond the omniverse meddling with the Marvel universe, and the character Keving Brashear is said to have journeyed outside of and transcended it.

The this has been followed up on in upcoming issues of the Ultimates, in which the team will journey outside of it in order to repair the broken spacetime.
 
I've said this before, author's intentions are completely irrelevant. In order for a character to be ranked a certain tier, the author would actually have to show the character performing some actual feats. You can't just go "TOAA created all fictions and the real world". You have to show scans of TOAA actually doing this. It doesn't matter what the Marvel writers intended. They can't control all of fiction and the real world, and they don't.

The author of Gurren Lagann's intent was for Simon and the others to kick all logic to the curb and defeat anyone regardless of how powerful they were.

To quote Simon:

"Don't underestimate us! We don't care about time, or space or multi-dimensional whatevers! We don't give a damn about that. Force your way down a path YOU choose to take, and do it all yourself! That's the way Team Dai-Gurren rolls!"

It was clearly the author's intent for them to beat everyone regardless of how powerful they were, by constantly evolving and overpowering their foes. By that logic, we should put Simon and TTGL at tier 0 also, because that's the author's intent. However' Simon's feats are only universal and that's where he stands.

The Marvel authors tried saying TOAA created absolutely everything, but they couldn't show this on panel, and TOAA's only shown feat is hyperversal.
 
...what?

That quote was not highlighting author's intent at all. It was a peptalk, not an author's statement nor does it meet any of the qualifications of tier 0 in any definition.

Though feats are preferable it is not the "end all" you mistakenly believe it to be. Sentry defeated Molecule Man and yet word of god basically confirmed this particular feat as PIS.
 
TheMightyRegulator said:
...what?
That quote was not highlighting author's intent at all. It was a peptalk, not an author's statement nor does it meet any of the qualifications of tier 0 in any definition.

Though feats are preferable it is not the "end all" you mistakenly believe it to be. Sentry defeated Molecule Man and yet word of god basically confirmed this particular feat as PIS.
Click to expand...
This times a hundred. While feats are indeed important, both powerscaling and statements are also valuable information. For instance: Without statements, no one would ever know that Gold Saints are Star level and Faster than Light. Likewise, without powerscaling, we would end up with an island level Cell.
 
In my personal opinion, statements should be considered very important. This wiki is too focused on being scientific and logical, as if we're discussing real-life matters, which doesn't always go down well when comparing characters from fiction. I don't think it's fair to say "yeah, the author confirmed that, but according to the laws of dimensional yada-yada, that can't be possible". It is fiction after all. If someone tried to discuss dimensional yada-yada about my characters, I could say "Well in my fiction that stuff doesn't exist like in real life. My world and my characters don't apply to that." The concept of something like omnipotency is very confusing in real life, but it sits comfortably in fiction. Funny how we dismiss certain stuff as being "impossible" and yet we're ok with FTL characters (which according to physics, mass can't travel that fast). That's just my opinion though. This wiki has it's own way of doing things and that's fine with me.

Edit: This isn't very relevant to TOAA discussion. I understand why he was changed. It's just me talking about this wiki's approach to considering characters.
 
What are you talking about..? The only reasons TLT and people like that are so strong is because we USES Dimensional logic on them.

And dude, the point of this Wiki is to compares fictional characters to each others, so we must have a basis, and we uses a Scientific basis for that, since it is the most common. We can't go and assume that a character is omnipotent based on what he is in a single fiction, since we must compare him ot other fictions. That's the whole reasons NLF exists.
 
^ Exactly. If we were to analyse each work of fiction on a case-by-case analysis, we would end up with Omnipotent Characters who sit confortably within Tier 0 of our dimensional scale (Azathoth, The Creator, Divine Presence... While other characters described as omnipotents would be in our 3-A (Truth from FMA comes to mind), or various omnipotents who are currently in our Tier 2.

And really, using our dimensional scale we have obtained 8 Omnipotent characters (While I still think it should be 9 *Cough Cough*), Azathoth (x2), TOAA, The Primal Monitor, Divine Presence, Undoubtedly First, The Creator and Kami Tenchi. If there was only, say, one fictional omnipotent with our scale, then I'd agree it's problematic.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
^ Exactly. If we were to analyse each work of fiction on a case-by-case analysis, we would end up with Omnipotent Characters who sit confortably within Tier 0 of our dimensional scale (Azathoth, The Creator, Divine Presence... While other characters described as omnipotents would be in our 3-A (Truth from FMA comes to mind), or various omnipotents who are currently in our Tier 2.
And really, using our dimensional scale we have obtained 8 Omnipotent characters (While I still think it should be 9 *Cough Cough*), Azathoth (x2), TOAA, The Primal Monitor, Divine Presence, Undoubtedly First, The Creator and Kami Tenchi. If there was only, say, one fictional omnipotent with our scale, then I'd agree it's problematic.
Click to expand...
What Saiko said as well. Also who was the 9th you had in mind? Azathoth is there twice :eek:
 
@Mandrakk

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U-DO

This guy. I tried making a case for him as Tier 0, but plenty of Mods rejected, although Everlasting still agrees with me.

Basically, in his verse there are two domains of reality, each with two layers. The lowest layer, the fourth one, is the 4D space-time humanity can interact and perceive (Known as the Real Number Domain). The layer above, the third one, is where all of concepts and ideas bound by human comprehension and understanding of dimensions exist (Known as the Imaginary Number Domain).

Above this, in the Higher Domain of Reality, we have a similar dual-layer structure. A reality where a universe filled with beings above the concept of dimensions exist, and a conceptual layer where all concepts and ideas bound by their comprehension exist (I.E, things we humans can't even begin to imagine).

U-DO is the boundless creator intellect who gave birth to all this, existing in a level of existence above the four layers, where "No equal can exist".
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
What are you talking about..? The only reasons TLT and people like that are so strong is because we USES Dimensional logic on them.
And dude, the point of this Wiki is to compares fictional characters to each others, so we must have a basis, and we uses a Scientific basis for that, since it is the most common. We can't go and assume that a character is omnipotent based on what he is in a single fiction, since we must compare him ot other fictions. That's the whole reasons NLF exists.
Click to expand...
Maybe the use of dimensions isn't such a good example. I'm talking more about other sort of statements. Ones people turn down because they seem like toon force rather than something realistic. Just seems redundant to treat fiction with real-life concepts when that's not what it's all about. But seeing as this wiki is dedicated to arguing things like in a normal, logical debate, I guess I can understand why you do it.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Mandrakk
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U-DO

This guy. I tried making a case for him as Tier 0, but plenty of Mods rejected, although Everlasting still agrees with me.

Basically, in his verse there are two domains of reality, each with two layers. The lowest layer, the fourth one, is the 4D space-time humanity can interact and perceive (Known as the Real Number Domain). The layer above, the third one, is where all of concepts and ideas bound by human comprehension and understanding of dimensions exist (Known as the Imaginary Number Domain).

Above this, in the Higher Domain of Reality, we have a similar dual-layer structure. A reality where a universe filled with beings above the concept of dimensions exist, and a conceptual layer where all concepts and ideas bound by their comprehension exist (I.E, things we humans can't even begin to imagine).

U-DO is the boundless creator intellect who gave birth to all this, existing in a level of existence above the four layers, where "No equal can exist".
Click to expand...
Yeah that sounds like standard 1-A stuff, maybe high 1-A like many lovecraftian beings above concepts and such. Maybe comparable to Yog-Sothoth aka The One In All and All In one... The Key and the Gate
 
In my opinion, something can only be considered Tier High 1-A if a Tier 0 exists in the same franchise or there are characters with similar powers.
 
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