Why isn't Anos 1-B?

[SubaruN2000]

The silver sea sounds like a 1-B hierarchy to me, unless I am missing something.

Theres a blatant reality fiction statement between higher worlds and lower worlds:

"With the power of <Ibis>, the fire dew of that world can appear on the board at the will of the Sovereign. The fire dew will be your silver water shogi piece."
[...]
"Fire dew is the order of life-force. Its quantity is the foundation of the Small World, which determines the depth of the world. It is no exaggeration to say that Silver Water Shogi uses the Small World itself as its pawns."
If you lose the fire dew, the world will be destroyed.
The amount of fire dew is directly related to the amount of magic power in the entire small world.
Using the fire dew as pawns would indeed be equivalent to using the world itself as a pawn."

So higher world seem to view lower ones as shogi pieces.

And this:

"In this small world, which exists deeper than your small world, the power of everything is in another dimension. Strength, speed, toughness, magic power, everything. Even the resistance of a grain of air would be a weight to you. If you unleash your shallow, world-destroying magic, you will not be able to destroy a single ship here."

So higher world finite ship > infinite lower world.

And the magic from higher worlds are described as countlessly more powerful than lower worlds.

 

[Hasty12345]

looks good I agree

 

[Da3ggman]

Oh dear God, do you know what you've done? With this thread, you'll summon them.

 

[SubaruN2000]

...summoned who...

 

[Iiliminal]

anos is beyond tier 0 and negs even omnipotence

 

[Bobsican]

If the OP is accurate I'd be leaning to agreeing on 1-B.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

If the OP is accurate I'd be leaning to agreeing on 1-B.

This is Q & A

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Difference should be Uncountable infinite to get Higher dimensionality
Also there is no direct statement which holds down the 1B arguments

The silver sea sounds like a 1-B hierarchy to me, unless I am missing something.

Theres a blatant reality fiction statement between higher worlds and lower worlds:

"With the power of <Ibis>, the fire dew of that world can appear on the board at the will of the Sovereign. The fire dew will be your silver water shogi piece."
[...]
"Fire dew is the order of life-force. Its quantity is the foundation of the Small World, which determines the depth of the world. It is no exaggeration to say that Silver Water Shogi uses the Small World itself as its pawns."
If you lose the fire dew, the world will be destroyed.
The amount of fire dew is directly related to the amount of magic power in the entire small world.
Using the fire dew as pawns would indeed be equivalent to using the world itself as a pawn."

So higher world seem to view lower ones as shogi pieces.

And this:

"In this small world, which exists deeper than your small world, the power of everything is in another dimension. Strength, speed, toughness, magic power, everything. Even the resistance of a grain of air would be a weight to you. If you unleash your shallow, world-destroying magic, you will not be able to destroy a single ship here."

So higher world finite ship > infinite lower world.

And the magic from higher worlds are described as countlessly more powerful than lower worlds.

 

[Dereck03]

Difference should be Uncountable infinite to get Higher dimensionality
Also there is no direct statement which holds down the 1B arguments

Are you okay bro???? Do you have fever??? Why aren't you wanking the verse to boundless? Did you get your account hacked, are you the real elde or another one from other timeline?

 

[SubaruN2000]

Difference should be Uncountable infinite to get Higher dimensionality
Also there is no direct statement which holds down the 1B arguments

What about the stuff about higher worlds viewing lower worlds as shogi pieces (so R>F). It doesn't seem like hyperbole or anything considering it literally states "it is no exaggeration to say..."

BTW I posted this as a Q and A since I am aware this has been discussed and rejected many times. I just never saw any satisfying counter argument to the evidence. People just say "not enough evidence" or "hyperbole" but it doesn't seem that way to me. Theres a literal statement of higher worlds viewing lower worlds as shogi pieces and it says that it isn't an exaggeration to say that implying it should be taken literally. Plus the stuff about the ship and higher worlds being infinitely more powerful in magic and laws.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

What about the stuff about higher worlds viewing lower worlds as shogi pieces (so R>F). It doesn't seem like hyperbole or anything considering it literally states "it is no exaggeration to say..."

It could be. But if they are like physical objects. Take it as if the chess piece is a 3D object and you are a 3D object.
Now we got confirmation that the chess piece is 4D
Since physically you are dimensionally equal to the chess piece you would be 4D as well.
Even if it is literal sense it would require more than a single statement.
Umineko had similar analogy except their gameboard pieces can go like high 1-B or something and there are like higher level such as game master etc which is why they are rated higher.

Tldr. insufficient info

 

[SubaruN2000]

Umineko had similar analogy except their gameboard pieces can go like high 1-B or something and there are like higher level such as game master etc which is why they are rated higher.

Sorry, but I still don't understand what the difference between the statements here and the Umineko chessboard ones. Why does it matter if Umineko pieces can be high 1-B? At the end of the day, their both still view lower stuff as chess/shogi pieces.

Also even though a shogi piece is of the same dimensionality/ontology it should still qualify for higher infinities since the higher world would be essentially encompassing infinitely sized lower worlds as nothing but finite shogi pieces, further backed up by how infinite world-destroying power wouldn't even destroy a ship in higher worlds.

If i am correct, the dark tower gets its high 1-B hierarchy from lower layers being specs of dust in higher ones. A spec of dust is still of the same dimensionality and existential status, but the infinity of the higher layer encompasses the infinity of the power layer as something very small (spec of dust). the same logic should apply here.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Sorry, but I still don't understand what the difference between the statements here and the Umineko chessboard ones. Why does it matter if Umineko pieces can be high 1-B? At the end of the day, their both still view lower stuff as chess/shogi pieces.

Also even though a shogi piece is of the same dimensionality/ontology it should still qualify for higher infinities since the higher world would be essentially encompassing infinitely sized lower worlds as nothing but finite shogi pieces, further backed up by how infinite world-destroying power wouldn't even destroy a ship in higher worlds.

If i am correct, the dark tower gets its high 1-B hierarchy from lower layers being specs of dust in higher ones. A spec of dust is still of the same dimensionality and existential status, but the infinity of the higher layer encompasses the infinity of the power layer as something very small (spec of dust). the same logic should apply here.

Umineko showed how a gameboard piece can be high 1-B with how they can scale to a structure and game master and players are ontologically above them that is true.
And why this matter is the fact that if you treat something as a chess piece you are only superior towards them on an unknown level if not higher.
If the pieces aren't on a higher level and there is no proof that said world is of something on a higher level then you only transcend them one level above them. Now if the world is only a 4D structure at best you would be 5D.

Idk the context behind dark tower since i did not participate in those CRT so i cannot comment on those.

And no the part about it not destroying a ship doesn't imply that it is invulnerable towards it.

Nothing fully supports a full infinity. The ship argument was also insufficient because framing it as not being able to destroy instead of framing something as incapable of harming are 2 different things.
To elaborate if the difference between the small world and the deeper small world is truly uncountably infinite then the existence of the smaller world denizen would be infinitesimal that anything wouldn't just be weigh but would ultimately destroy you from the sheer difference of it. But that wasn't a case they were simply just far too weak in comparison. Even with the mention of dimension if a qualitatively superiority isn't definite it needs to be evaluated and as far as i know knowledgable members and staff evaluated it as insufficient to qualify for qualitative superiority.

If you can prove that each layer is higher infinity superior to each other yes it is possible tho. But to truly answer your question why rather than arguing info that i do not fully remember. you can check the CRT regarding silver sea as a whole back in 2021 or was it 2020 or something

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Are you okay bro???? Do you have fever??? Why aren't you wanking the verse to boundless? Did you get your account hacked, are you the real elde or another one from other timeline?

Not here my love

 

[Tatsumi504]

Are you okay bro???? Do you have fever??? Why aren't you wanking the verse to boundless? Did you get your account hacked, are you the real elde or another one from other timeline?

Lmfao was wondering who tf this impostor was

 

[SubaruN2000]

Umineko showed how a gameboard piece can be high 1-B with how they can scale to a structure and game master and players are ontologically above them that is true.
And why this matter is the fact that if you treat something as a chess piece you are only superior towards them on an unknown level if not higher.
If the pieces aren't on a higher level and there is no proof that said world is of something on a higher level then you only transcend them one level above them. Now if the world is only a 4D structure at best you would be 5D.

Ah I see, I forgot to mention but there are 100 layers in the silver sea and the shogi stuff seems to be the difference between each layer, which is why I proposed 1-B.

You make a good point the infinity stuff though. But I still think that if umineko can get ontological difference from viewing as chess pieces, it should apply for the silver sea too. The ship stuff and the laws and magic of higher worlds being infinitely stronger is just mostly further support. Like, I'm still not really seeing any reason why the shogi piece statement shouldn't be used as qualitative superiority.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Lmfao was wondering who tf this impostor was

Spoiler

Gonna sell your a$$ for free

 

[Tatsumi504]

Spoiler

Gonna sell your a$$ for free

your loss

 

[Robo432343]

fr i agree with 1-B MG
why is no one making a Crt on it

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

your loss

 

[MaxLevel_King]

Because the basic premise of this thread is incorrect (I can't believe I just discovered this thread). The scan doesn't state that "Higher Worlds" view "Lower Worlds" as shogi pieces. It states that via <Ibis>, Fire Dew can be used as shogi pieces. Furthermore, the stronger Worlds in the Silver Sea are Deep Worlds, which are literally lower than the weaker Worlds, known as Shallow Worlds. So the "Higher Worlds" that you're referring to are literally lower Worlds. On top of that, the Fire Dew that is being used as shogi pieces literally belong to Deep Worlds ("Higher Worlds"), not Shallow Worlds ("Lower Worlds").

As for the ship statement, context is needed in order to interpret it properly. There are 99+ Layers of the Silver Sea, Shallow Layers are 1-10, Middle Layers are 11-20, and Deep Layers are 21-99+. The deeper a layer a World is in, the more powerful it is. The ship in question comes from a Deep World (Layers 21-99+) and is being compared to a Shallow World (Layers 1-10). In this case, the Shallow World in question, the Militia World, exists on Layer 1. Meaning that there is at least a 20+ layers difference in power between the Militia World and the durability of the ship. IE, not a single layer difference in power, so the statement doesn't apply to Worlds only 1 layer apart.

TLDR: There isn't a reality-fiction difference to begin with and that ship durability statement is being used out of context.

 

[LuciferX]

You make a good point the infinity stuff though. But I still think that if umineko can get ontological difference from viewing as chess pieces, it should apply for the silver sea too. The ship stuff and the laws and magic of higher worlds being infinitely stronger is just mostly further support. Like, I'm still not really seeing any reason why the shogi piece statement shouldn't be used as qualitative superiority.

Indeed.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

You make a good point the infinity stuff though. But I still think that if umineko can get ontological difference from viewing as chess pieces, it should apply for the silver sea too. The ship stuff and the laws and magic of higher worlds being infinitely stronger is just mostly further support. Like, I'm still not really seeing any reason why the shogi piece statement shouldn't be used as qualitative superiority.

You're gonna have to ask tier 1 experts for that. Defining qualitative superiority that doesn't use R>F is a tricky situation even for me

 

[Ovy7]

The inventions of hyperboles was a mistake

 

[Darksmash]

The inventions of hyperboles was a mistake

Media literacy is a privilege

 

[Darksmash]

You make a good point the infinity stuff though. But I still think that if umineko can get ontological difference from viewing as chess pieces, it should apply for the silver sea too.

Btw this is dumb whataboutism because chess pieces aren't the primary argument for Umineko's tier 1

 

[Robo432343]

ong anos is beyond time n space so he shud be 1-a

 

[Iiliminal]

anos ignores all logical foundations of the tiering system

 

[Iiliminal]

anyway 1-b anos has been addressed so many times before there’s not point to this thread ngl

 

[Robo432343]

questions been answered
close thread

 

[Fixxed]

I very very very super super ultra max pro AGREE

 

[SubaruN2000]

So the "Higher Worlds" that you're referring to are literally lower Worlds. On top of that, the Fire Dew that is being used as shogi pieces literally belong to Deep Worlds ("Higher Worlds"), not Shallow Worlds ("Lower Worlds").

Yea thats what I ment by higher and lower, deeper and shallow. But anyway, thanks for the rest of the reply.

The inventions of hyperboles was a mistake

Was it really a hyperbole? It didn't sound like one to me. It literally goes out of its way to say "it is no exaggeration to say that...". The other stuff I can understand being hyperbole.

Btw this is dumb whataboutism because chess pieces aren't the primary argument for Umineko's tier 1

Yes I agree, which is why it isn't the basis of what I was asking. But it was still approved for umineko nonetheless. Regardless, I'm not super knowledgeable on umineko.

anyway 1-b anos has been addressed so many times before there’s not point to this thread ngl

This was never ment to be a crt or a thread to convince people otherwise. Just a question of why it isn't the case because I never really saw a satisfying answer in all the rejected crt threads..

Anyway ill drop this since people are getting annoyed. After reading the comments I do agree there should be more context to say for sure. Thanks for the input.

 

[Zencha9]

Using umineko as an example is bad because it doesn't use the chess pieces for the R>F
chess pieces control characters not contain the world/multiverse
And it has a very blatant R>F statement in umineko alone with beato describing higher layers as higher infinites where the higher worlds have bigger infinites than the lower ones

 

[Iiliminal]

in umineko lower d is like nonexistent in comparison to higher d iirc

 

[Zencha9]

Nah that comes from the back side of the gameboard iirc which is a higher layer

 

[Darksmash]

Yes I agree, which is why it isn't the basis of what I was asking. But it was still approved for umineko nonetheless. Regardless, I'm not super knowledgeable on umineko.

Nothing got approved. Umineko is tier 1 for entirely seperate reasons. Should do some research before using whataboutism.

 

[SubaruN2000]

Nothing got approved. Umineko is tier 1 for entirely seperate reasons. Should do some research before using whataboutism.

Ok...thats all I was asking. This entire thread is a question, not "anos should be hyperversal" or "umineko uses chess pieces as R>F so Misfit MUST too". I was literally just asking for clarification. If umineko got approved for different reasons that great, no one ever told me that. The reason I got for why umienkos chess analogy was used was that "the pieces were high 1-B" which made no sense to me. I wasn't using any whataboutism. I know 1-B anos has been rejected many times, I'm not trying to argue for it. I'm just trying to get clarification.

Also, from the umineko cosmology page:
"From this we can see the 3 Domains and also that the superiority between those Domains is similar, this superiority being in such a way that the entire structure of the lower Domain is just a Gameboard (basically fiction) for the beings in the higher Domain, no matter how complex the lower Domain is."

So it does seem like the chess piece stuff was used as R>F unless this is an error or I'm misunderstanding something. If it is a misunderstanding, then a simple correction isn't too much to ask for.

 

[Lewis]

I read a lot of comic horror but this one scares me the most.

 

[Ovy7]

There's a ton of context behind the chess pieces stuff for WTC and why it's rf, not just "because they appear as chess pieces". The chess pieces analogy is used throughout the vn and it's a pretty central concept for the cosmology.

 

[SubaruN2000]

There's a ton of context behind the chess pieces stuff for WTC and why it's rf, not just "because they appear as chess pieces".

I see. Thanks. As I've said before, I agree that there should be more context now so I'm good with respect to this thread.