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Baseline High 1-A ?
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Why is Masadaverse's characters High Outerverse level now ?
- Thread starter Sua_feiura_matou_Alex
- Start date
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- shinza banshou
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for shinza the throne is their baseline and then obviously users who has taiji scales unfathomably far above it
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Can we please stop using that stupid term called baseline? In 1-A, I understood the idea but in High 1-A that is just like a suggsversal term
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Questions
1) The depth of the singularity depends on the god holding the throne and can be theoretically infinitely deep, correct?
2) If not for the Throne god preventing the other gods, could they reach the throne regardless of the singularity's depth?
1) The depth of the singularity depends on the god holding the throne and can be theoretically infinitely deep, correct?
2) If not for the Throne god preventing the other gods, could they reach the throne regardless of the singularity's depth?
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Yes and yes,
1) Yes it basically scales to the Throne Gods Taiji basically, the closest we see is obviously Hajun.
2) Iirc its basically been shown in that when the Throne God isnt enforcing their Taiji over the Singularity any God of any level can pass through regardless of depth.
1) Yes it basically scales to the Throne Gods Taiji basically, the closest we see is obviously Hajun.
2) Iirc its basically been shown in that when the Throne God isnt enforcing their Taiji over the Singularity any God of any level can pass through regardless of depth.
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Ok, one last question then.
If the depth doesn't matter, where is it shown that different depths are transcendent to each other?
If the depth doesn't matter, where is it shown that different depths are transcendent to each other?
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Becuase the different depths are treated the same as the differences in Taiji from what I can tell.
Though someone else will likely be able to give a better explaination.
Though someone else will likely be able to give a better explaination.
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Why are the differences in depth the same as differences in taiji?
The throne god might make the singularity deeper depending on their taiji, but if the singularity of a depth drilled by a god with 100 taiji can still be encompassed by a god of only 1 taiji regardless of depth, that can't be the reason.
The throne god might make the singularity deeper depending on their taiji, but if the singularity of a depth drilled by a god with 100 taiji can still be encompassed by a god of only 1 taiji regardless of depth, that can't be the reason.
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1. Due to the fact you cant bypass or even touch the throne god if you're the challenger unless u have adequate strength to actually oppose the throne god, if 1 taiji difference is there for example the opposing can never drill through the throne god's singilarity even if they somehow get infinite boost of power as the taiji difference is still there.
2. i dont get this question so u need to reword this one, but the only thing i can understand from this is that if a challenger god has 100 taiji and the throne god has 101 then the latter cant drill through the opposing's singularity no matter what, like i said before the only way an opposing god to truly oppose throne god is to have same or greater strength to that of a throne god. Like what the CRT has explained the singularity depth varies depending on the strength of the throne god, but since the throne god will likely back the singularity with their taiji (colored) then the lesser strength of the opposing god has no way drill through it. like i said u need to reword that last question that u asked for me to fully grasp as i only got a cent of it.
2. i dont get this question so u need to reword this one, but the only thing i can understand from this is that if a challenger god has 100 taiji and the throne god has 101 then the latter cant drill through the opposing's singularity no matter what, like i said before the only way an opposing god to truly oppose throne god is to have same or greater strength to that of a throne god. Like what the CRT has explained the singularity depth varies depending on the strength of the throne god, but since the throne god will likely back the singularity with their taiji (colored) then the lesser strength of the opposing god has no way drill through it. like i said u need to reword that last question that u asked for me to fully grasp as i only got a cent of it.
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The reason the challenger can never reach the throne is because the Throne God is exerting their power to make the challenger unable to reach the Throne, not because of the singularity's depth. If the Throne God wasn't preventing them, and it was purely the depth of the singularity that prevented the challenger from reaching the Throne, then the gods wouldn't be transcending the singularity regardless of its size, they would be unable to reach the Throne beyond it directly as a result of its size - which would mean they would just be 1-A, not High 1-A, as they would not transcend a second potentially infinite hierarchy.
So again, I'm asking why is the depth of the singularity considered an hierarchy of infinite transcendance levels?
So again, I'm asking why is the depth of the singularity considered an hierarchy of infinite transcendance levels?
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you're missing the point of what i said, the throne god is backing up the singularity or else if theres no throne god any god that has taiji isconceptually above the singularity as a whole, and not only that the singularity bears no power before gods. You're comparing someone drilling through the singularity while the throne god is backing the singularity with their power which i already explained above. of course they wouldnt reach the throne if they are weaker when the throne god is backing up the singularity itself. even if we say singularity itself is just 1-A the fact that its been described the singularity is part of the picture that the gods draw in the canvas by overcoating it makes it high 1-A either way. As ultima even agreed u dont need to have 1-A+ hierarchy to be high 1-A anyway.
What i just said on the last sentence was mere devils advocate as the singularity is always being backed by the power the throne god its not that singularity is superior to the opposing god at all. My stance is still always "gods are superior to the singularity no matter how potent it is", the singularity expansion is just its depth being deeper than the previous gods or whatever such as hajun's singularity way deeper than mercurius. So this doesnt change anything of what i said when it comes to singularity in itself is a pseudo hierarchy as it expands depending on the god's strength, not that it includes a throne god backing it
What i just said on the last sentence was mere devils advocate as the singularity is always being backed by the power the throne god its not that singularity is superior to the opposing god at all. My stance is still always "gods are superior to the singularity no matter how potent it is", the singularity expansion is just its depth being deeper than the previous gods or whatever such as hajun's singularity way deeper than mercurius. So this doesnt change anything of what i said when it comes to singularity in itself is a pseudo hierarchy as it expands depending on the god's strength, not that it includes a throne god backing it
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In order to be High 1-A, the character must "completely transcendent over infinitely-layered Outerversal hierarchies".
Where is this infinitely layered Outerversal hierarchy that the gods are transcending? The singularity merely transcends the multiverse. In order for them to be High 1-A, you must prove that the singularity is an infinitely layered Outerversal hierarchy. All I see the singularity as currently is a single outerverse, not layered at all.
So again, prove that "deeper" levels of the singularity are infinitely transcendent to each other (and therefore by extension the singularity is an infinite outerversal hierarchy), because right now all I am seeing are two options.
Because weaker gods cannot drill to the same depth as a stronger god no matter how long they try, the difference between depths of the singularity are equal to layers of transcendance. This is the option that allows the singularity to become a potentially infinitely layered Outerversal hierarchy, with each further layer of depth being completely unreachable and transcendant to the last. However, under this logic and without the presentation of further evidence, the gods would not transcend the entire singularity regardless of its size, because if the depth of the singularity is enough, they cannot go any further. Therefore, they are not High 1-A because they do not transcend an infinitely layered outerversal hierarchy.
However, I have been told this is incorrect because it is the Throne God who prevents the challenging god from reaching the throne, not the depth itself - but in that case, where is the evidence that each layer of singularity depth equates to a hierarchial transcendance? The inability of a 65 taiji god to reach a depth created by a 66 taiji god would be evidence of transcendence between depths (while also demonstrating that Gods do not transcend the singularity's potentially infinite hierarchy in its entirely as a weaker god cannot reach a deeper singularity), but from what I am told, it doesn't even matter if the singularity was drilled by a 1000 taiji god and the challenger had only 1 taiji - as long as the Throne God wasn't actively exerting influence to prevent the challenger from drilling further, the singularity's depth is meaningless. Which means I don't see any evidence of the singularity having transcendance between depths, which means the gods still aren't High 1-A because there is no infinite outerversal hierarchy for them to transcend in the first place.
Where is this infinitely layered Outerversal hierarchy that the gods are transcending? The singularity merely transcends the multiverse. In order for them to be High 1-A, you must prove that the singularity is an infinitely layered Outerversal hierarchy. All I see the singularity as currently is a single outerverse, not layered at all.
So again, prove that "deeper" levels of the singularity are infinitely transcendent to each other (and therefore by extension the singularity is an infinite outerversal hierarchy), because right now all I am seeing are two options.
Because weaker gods cannot drill to the same depth as a stronger god no matter how long they try, the difference between depths of the singularity are equal to layers of transcendance. This is the option that allows the singularity to become a potentially infinitely layered Outerversal hierarchy, with each further layer of depth being completely unreachable and transcendant to the last. However, under this logic and without the presentation of further evidence, the gods would not transcend the entire singularity regardless of its size, because if the depth of the singularity is enough, they cannot go any further. Therefore, they are not High 1-A because they do not transcend an infinitely layered outerversal hierarchy.
However, I have been told this is incorrect because it is the Throne God who prevents the challenging god from reaching the throne, not the depth itself - but in that case, where is the evidence that each layer of singularity depth equates to a hierarchial transcendance? The inability of a 65 taiji god to reach a depth created by a 66 taiji god would be evidence of transcendence between depths (while also demonstrating that Gods do not transcend the singularity's potentially infinite hierarchy in its entirely as a weaker god cannot reach a deeper singularity), but from what I am told, it doesn't even matter if the singularity was drilled by a 1000 taiji god and the challenger had only 1 taiji - as long as the Throne God wasn't actively exerting influence to prevent the challenger from drilling further, the singularity's depth is meaningless. Which means I don't see any evidence of the singularity having transcendance between depths, which means the gods still aren't High 1-A because there is no infinite outerversal hierarchy for them to transcend in the first place.
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I'll make a post for all the questions soon. I'd appreciate if everyone can wait for it, since some of it are very difficult to convey and I'm not exactly free now. Thank you.
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I'm pretty sure it doesn't technically need to be an infinite outerversal hierarchy that they transcend as long as the power difference between you and an outerversal structure is am equivalent qualitative power difference. This is the same way you don't actually need to transcend infinite hyperversal hierarchies to be outerversal, you just need to have an equivalent qualitative power difference
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Im just gonna say that Raven plans to make a response with scans at some point today.
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To answer all the questions, I believe I should start with the most relevant one first.
>If it's the Throne God's power that prevents the contender from reaching the Throne, then what is the evidence that each layer of singularity depth equates to a hierarchial transcendance
This is particularly because the Singularity is stated, multiple times, to have variable size depending on the strength of the ruling deity. Aside from the fact that weaker gods normally can't reach the bottom no matter how much they try being used as an evidence, the structure's size is always being compared. This is the case with Yato comparing Hajun's Singularity to Mercurius - saying that the former sits within the depth so extreme that it would be completely unreachable/endless when compared to Mercurius'. (Note that the Singularity always represent an infinite abyss of transparent Taikyoku, it is infinite in size even If a God with, hypothetically speaking, 1 Taikyoku occupies the Throne) This is most likely referring to Hajun's being ontologically superior, from an unknown degree, to infinite or beyond depending on how it is interpreted. Likewise, Mercurius' Singularity, as pointed out in Marie's route by the perspective of the Gods themselves, would be perceived as endless compared to even 10 Taikyoku lower, this is supportive to the former claim.
As for why do I believe that using a perspective statement (referring to the one above) from such route is apt - This is particularly because the gods are the ones who paint over all things, altering creation to their whim, this applies to even the Singularity, which will be filled by the successor god occupying the Throne and altering its depth regardless of size as a necessary mechanic of the system, be it stronger or weaker one.
Furthermore, there is also another instance that is fairly supportive to this, and that is Yakou Madara, who at that point was also a "Singularity", (an actual one, with transparent taikyoku) attempting to eradicate Hajun. As Yakou Madara was attempting to reach the Throne - in which he could do so without hindered anything thanks to his special nature, he pointed out there there are "steps" down. Each of the step required him to "ascend" and guide himself to becoming a "deeper existence" due to the increasing complexity (mainly from the presence of colorless Taiji inside, which represents nothingness and encompasses "vast information" of creation) or else he would go "blank" or diffused. These steps correlate to the depth of the Singularity.
Even among the gods, strength is tied to "depth" of their essence/soul/atman. A god with "deeper universe" would naturally be more powerful. While this doesn't really mean much, it is still quite contributive to the quotes above.
To be quite honest, I think that this is most likely enough to support, or at least heavily imply the argument that the Singularity can indeed have hierarchical layers/transcendence within, and with the Gods being capable of painting it and the rest of creation alike as long as there is no similar opposing force, this seems to be enough.
As for the scans, the vast majority of them are already either in my two previous CRTs and Blogs that were used, you can mostly find quotes along with context or translation there. (Inserting them on phone is a pain in the buttocks, so please spare me ;-
@GLHF22
There will always be more questions in the future unless I finish revamping the explanation page, which should already be renamed "Shinza Banshou Explanation Page", by the way.
>If it's the Throne God's power that prevents the contender from reaching the Throne, then what is the evidence that each layer of singularity depth equates to a hierarchial transcendance
This is particularly because the Singularity is stated, multiple times, to have variable size depending on the strength of the ruling deity. Aside from the fact that weaker gods normally can't reach the bottom no matter how much they try being used as an evidence, the structure's size is always being compared. This is the case with Yato comparing Hajun's Singularity to Mercurius - saying that the former sits within the depth so extreme that it would be completely unreachable/endless when compared to Mercurius'. (Note that the Singularity always represent an infinite abyss of transparent Taikyoku, it is infinite in size even If a God with, hypothetically speaking, 1 Taikyoku occupies the Throne) This is most likely referring to Hajun's being ontologically superior, from an unknown degree, to infinite or beyond depending on how it is interpreted. Likewise, Mercurius' Singularity, as pointed out in Marie's route by the perspective of the Gods themselves, would be perceived as endless compared to even 10 Taikyoku lower, this is supportive to the former claim.
As for why do I believe that using a perspective statement (referring to the one above) from such route is apt - This is particularly because the gods are the ones who paint over all things, altering creation to their whim, this applies to even the Singularity, which will be filled by the successor god occupying the Throne and altering its depth regardless of size as a necessary mechanic of the system, be it stronger or weaker one.
Furthermore, there is also another instance that is fairly supportive to this, and that is Yakou Madara, who at that point was also a "Singularity", (an actual one, with transparent taikyoku) attempting to eradicate Hajun. As Yakou Madara was attempting to reach the Throne - in which he could do so without hindered anything thanks to his special nature, he pointed out there there are "steps" down. Each of the step required him to "ascend" and guide himself to becoming a "deeper existence" due to the increasing complexity (mainly from the presence of colorless Taiji inside, which represents nothingness and encompasses "vast information" of creation) or else he would go "blank" or diffused. These steps correlate to the depth of the Singularity.
Even among the gods, strength is tied to "depth" of their essence/soul/atman. A god with "deeper universe" would naturally be more powerful. While this doesn't really mean much, it is still quite contributive to the quotes above.
To be quite honest, I think that this is most likely enough to support, or at least heavily imply the argument that the Singularity can indeed have hierarchical layers/transcendence within, and with the Gods being capable of painting it and the rest of creation alike as long as there is no similar opposing force, this seems to be enough.
As for the scans, the vast majority of them are already either in my two previous CRTs and Blogs that were used, you can mostly find quotes along with context or translation there. (Inserting them on phone is a pain in the buttocks, so please spare me ;-
@GLHF22
There will always be more questions in the future unless I finish revamping the explanation page, which should already be renamed "Shinza Banshou Explanation Page", by the way.
- Thread starter
- #58
God, Masadaverse is so complicated, I even start reading Dies Irae to see if I can understand a little more, and I'm to find a site where I can download Kajiri Kamui Kagura. Besides, If Hajun is so powerful (immensurable above all of the other caracters like Tenma, Ren,Reinhard,etc), then why can't he destroy all of creation and the Throne ? Also, I read more than a couple times in this wiki that Hajun should be Tier 0, do you guys agree ?
- Thread starter
- #59
Also, this Singularity simply break my mind (not that the other concepta in the verse are easy to understand) !
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Hajun does destroy all of creation anf the throne, he stomps Merc, Rein, Ren and Marie then activates his Law destroying everything.
However do to some BS that is Mercurius he is able to reset or something but Hajun takes the Throne.
I dont think Hajun is tier 0 tbh, if Pantheon ever comes out Naraka might be though.
However do to some BS that is Mercurius he is able to reset or something but Hajun takes the Throne.
I dont think Hajun is tier 0 tbh, if Pantheon ever comes out Naraka might be though.
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Most extremely powerful verses are extremely complicated that's generally why they are so strong.Sua feiura matou Alex said:
Btw Kajiri Kamui Kagura is only in Japanese.
- Thread starter
- #62
Most extremely powerful verses are extremely complicated that's generally why they are so strong.
Btw Kajiri Kamui Kagura is only in Japanese.
Goddamit
Btw Kajiri Kamui Kagura is only in Japanese.
Goddamit
- Thread starter
- #63
I was about to ask about this. What do you guys think about Dies Irae Pantheon ? Does it will change something in the cosmology (like the Observer) ? Also, I don't think Naraka is Tier 0, since, as far as I have searched, they are more like consciousness of the Throne, like some sort of LDO before the LDO, but they seen to be powerful, possibly beyond HajunPsychoWarper said:
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who knows how powerful they are, but hajun has seen the group of "naraka" in his "room"
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Well they apparently exist in a realm above the Gods or something like that tho Hajun was able to peer into their realm and told them hed erase them as well.
But for Pantheon itself I dont really know, it was cancelled but I had heard it might be coming back.
But for Pantheon itself I dont really know, it was cancelled but I had heard it might be coming back.
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PsychoWarper said:
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Can I see the scan for when this was pointed out? Because this was critical to our discussion on discord.Ravenous4th said:
Without proof that the difference in singularity depths between Gods with a finite taikyoku is still perceived as an infinite "transcendent" difference for each "step" down, Yato's comparison between the size of Mercurius's singularity and the size of Hajun's singualrity can't be applied to the difference between every god ever. Hajun has infinite taiji, so obviously he would create a singularity that is infinitely larger than Mercurius's finite taiji.
Without evidence that the difference between singularity depths created by beings with finite taiji is still perceived as infinite by the lower god, the singularity becoming more and more complex as Yakou stepped deeper into it doesn't necessarily mean that step down equalled an infinite transcendent jump in size and complexity.
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Just gonna toss this out there, I'm pretty sure Hajun doesn't technically have infinite levels, but I'm not the Masada expert so I'll leave it to them kek
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Yes Hajun's peak Taiji is Immeasurable and infinitely rising.
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there can be many interpretations on his "immeasurable" value, however saying his taiji is just infinite goes against the notion of it being immeasurable.
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Can I see the scan for when this was pointed out? Because this was critical to our discussion on discord.
This is when Ren and Rein reach the twilight Beach, Merc says its better to stop because they will continue falling in an endless hole/pit/something without reaching the bottom (the throne) which they do in Rea route because lolimstronger
It is in the last big CRT Rav made or wait till they get back to post kt
This is when Ren and Rein reach the twilight Beach, Merc says its better to stop because they will continue falling in an endless hole/pit/something without reaching the bottom (the throne) which they do in Rea route because lolimstronger
It is in the last big CRT Rav made or wait till they get back to post kt
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It is in this CRT: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3918044, Tony?
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Yeah, more or less. It is in the other one (my mistake there :v)
https://gyazo.com/6048280588d7ffb69311a2255f1d414a
https://gyazo.com/4967b55391f875e7bfe90140f8fb58b1
So, there is the proof of that whole finite taiji difference (Ren/Rein vs Merc) is still infinite/endless, etc.
And when they get comparable power to Merc they straight up go the the Throne to fight
I still wonder why everyone keeps avoiding those CRTs
https://gyazo.com/6048280588d7ffb69311a2255f1d414a
https://gyazo.com/4967b55391f875e7bfe90140f8fb58b1
So, there is the proof of that whole finite taiji difference (Ren/Rein vs Merc) is still infinite/endless, etc.
And when they get comparable power to Merc they straight up go the the Throne to fight
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Alright.
Acknowledged.
I have no further questions.
Acknowledged.
I have no further questions.
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