Why everything is assumed to have a soul here?

[Keeweed]

Ah yes, the scientific method, when we are referring to something that doesn’t exist (fiction).

 

[Metalballrun]

I think a lot of people are going into tangent here. Like, really erroneous comparisons. Not all concepts or ideas are the same. The passage of time is observable and it is discussed not only in philosophy but also science ffs.
It's quite absurd to compare that to the idea of the existence of a soul. That's fantasy shit, it's more akin to arguing whether or not gods exist IRL, although I'm quite certain that topic is probably banned in this forum due to obvious reasons. Or whether magic or the aether exists, especially the latter that was a thing in the past.

Ideally, we shouldn't use the standard assumption that souls exist in a story that doesn't use it, much like how souls don't exist IRL as there's no proof that it exists. This applies to other fantasy concepts too.
But it gets messier with fictional verses, so the best thing to do is to always treat it in a case-by-case basis. Applying a site-wide rule is a mess that probably nobody wants to really deal with or have a solution in mind at the moment, especially with how people are either used to assuming everything has souls or mixing their own personal beliefs in it or whatever else.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Ah yes, the scientific method, when we are referring to something that doesn’t exist (fiction).

Yes, we use IRL shit to fiction, such as calcs, laws, etc, and I am saying that the comparison between Math and Souls that someone made is literally stupid, as Math and Physic have the scientic method in their side, while Souls side have none

 

[Axxtentacle]

Some people seems that purposely ignores the scientific method just to argue in side of something literally baseless and making bad comparisons

I'm not ignoring anything, and you've not been able to explain why they're bad comparisons. Even without the comparisons, it's just easier to assume things have souls for the sake of indexing. Even if you just go down to the amount of work involved, it's easier to not list an immunity of soul manipulation than it is to list it. People want to list it there because it makes it easy. Matches become easier to make, things generally become more clear cut.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

ink I’ve taken a side but that is exactly at what I’m trying to get across.

nobody can say this person with no proof of souls in their respective fictional universe has or does not have a soul. So why is the wiki making an assumption so much in the favor of the soul side with absolutely no proof or evidence, especially since a mod said the wiki is supposed to be neutral on topics like this.

I think you misread the mod. DarkDragon is saying we have to take a neutral stance regarding in real life soul and stuff.

“
As for the existence of IRL souls themselves, that is not relevant to the indexing of this wiki and gets into religious controversial territory so I'd rather not have that. But even in IRL, saying their is no soul or no "Higher Power Entity" is just as religious as saying there are those. And we're supposed to be more neutral when it comes to IRL stuff. No one should force any kind of religion or nonreligious on anyone. But what we do prioritize is verse equalization; which the best way to do that is to make it the standard assumption that everybody has a body, mind, soul, empathy, past/history, present, future/fate, and exist within cause and effect unless otherwise stated in respective verses.”

 

[Keeweed]

(I was referring to a comment that got quickly buried by replies) But there is no proof leaning one way or the other. The story doesn’t claim they do or don’t exist. Meaning we have nothing to go off. This means the opponent claiming they have a soul should take priority, since nothing exist to negate that claim.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I'm not ignoring anything, and you've not been able to explain why they're bad comparisons

I literally did, the Math/Physic side is literally using the Scientific Method to their cases, such as making observations, creating hypotesis, testing the hypotesis, reach conclusions etc, while Soul side literally cannot be argued to be based in something, as they literally fail in that criteria

 

[Urshani]

I literally did, the Math/Physic side is literally using the Scientific Method to their cases, such as making observations, creating hypotesis, testing the hypotesis, reach conclusions etc, while Soul side literally cannot be argued to be based in something, as they literally fail in that criteria

concepts fail all the same, now every realistic verse gets immunity to concept and soul hax

your idea is nonsense

 

[HammerStrikes219]

(I was referring to a comment that got quickly buried by replies) But there is no proof leaning one way or the other. The story doesn’t claim they do or don’t exist. Meaning we have nothing to go off. This means the opponent claiming they have a soul should take priority, since nothing exist to negate that claim.

Actually there are fictional series that does mention soul IIRC like Digimon and so on and so forth as I think you have to even been more hardpress to find evidence of a verse having soulless beings.

I personally find it absurd to assume all beings to being soulless unto itself in a literal sense too.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This thread reminds me of the philosophy Descartes said which later became a song by Weird Al Yankovic. About everything we know being wrong.

But in all seriousness, forced secularism on a bunch of verses is also just giving verses that have supernatural properties look weaker while giving verses that don't have souls or spirituality special treatment. Not to mentioned we have had plenty of people attempt to do the same that got universally rejected. And I have doubts that's going to change anytime soon. But anyway, you might as well attempt a thread trying to say why does hax even exist to begin with? But again, that is far too much repetition and other staff members are going to basically say the very same thing.

 

[Urshani]

this thread rn

 

[Urshani]

why does hax even exist to begin with?

are people really trying to debunk hax

 

[Keeweed]

Once again, real life doesn’t matter because people that don’t belief in souls can write stories with souls. Fiction isn’t the real world so there is nothing truly putting the assumption one way or the other. There is no prove for or against souls. If the verse says there are no souls then this thread is pointless. If it says nothing why would we assume soul manipulation won’t work when there is no claim countering it.

 

[Keeweed]

Actually there are fictional series that does mention soul IIRC like Digimon and so on and so forth as I think you have to even been more hardpress to find evidence of a verse having soulless beings.

I personally find it absurd to assume all beings to being soulless unto itself in a literal sense too.

I think you read my comment wrong. I was referring only to versus that say nothing.

 

[Bernkastelll]

concepts fail all the same, now every realistic verse gets immunity to concept and soul hax

someone else said that concept was proved, doesnt matter, if it was proved, then cool, if it wasnt proved, then concept hax doesnt works in these without following a specific verse logic, since, it cannot be proved, so, it shouldnt be assumed to exist, so, immunity to concept hax, as everyone is immune to something that doesnt exists, but Souls literally cannot be proved here, so, what is the point?

But in all seriousness, forced secularism on a bunch of verses is also just giving verses that have supernatural properties look weaker while giving verses that don't have souls special treatment.

Actually, the wiki is giving special treatment to the unproved/unreliable side, not the opposite, look, I cannot say that all verses can be affected by ''Magical pink elephant with rainbow sings'', since, I literally made up that shit, unless an author wants to create the magical elephant yada yada wing, it cannot be assumed to work in all verses, as I said, it is a made up thing, with no proofs and its not reliable

. Not to mentioned we have had plenty of people attempt to do the same that got universally rejected.

im not trying to change anything, as this is a Question and Answers board

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I think you read my comment wrong. I was referring only to versus that say nothing.

Ah fair enough, but even then it kinda does fall into speculation territory.

 

[joshpiece]

But there is no proof leaning one way or the other. The story doesn’t claim they do or don’t exist. Meaning we have nothing to go off. This means the opponent claiming they have a soul should take priority, since nothing exist to negate that claim.

No absolutely does it not mean whoever made the claim takes priority it means the claim is invalid and should not be used.

song by Weird Al Yankovic.

Aye I fw weird Al he a legend

But in all seriousness, forced secularism on a bunch of verses is also just giving verses that have supernatural properties look weaker while giving verses that don't have souls special treatment.

The opposite is occurring right now tho. Both parties have 0 proof if a character has a soul or not so why have it be a point of contention and be a case by case scenario. Tbh I could give 2 ***** if it changes the wiki or not this just a nice discussion to me

 

[Urshani]

someone else said that concept was proved, doesnt matter, if it was proved, then cool, if it wasnt proved, then concept hax doesnt works in these without following a specific verse logic, since, it cannot be proved, so, it shouldnt be assumed to exist, so, immunity to concept hax, as everyone is immune to something that doesnt exists, but Souls literally cannot be proved here, so, what is the point?

your suggestion is even more ridiculous

 

[Bernkastelll]

your suggestion is even more ridiculous

Made up and unproved things >>> Accuracy then, that's what the wiki is doing, but hey.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

No absolutely does it not mean whoever made the claim takes priority it means the claim is invalid and should not be used.

What claim is being there when there is no claims of whatever they have a soul or not in a fictional setting. To say they don’t have souls required a actual burden of proof.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The standard assumption is that characters have 0 resistance to soul related hax unless otherwise stated or shown. That is the plain and simple part.

 

[Keeweed]

“No absolutely does it not mean whoever made the claim takes priority it means the claim is invalid and should not be used.”

But there isn’t anything to invalidate the claim: the opposing verse said nothing on the subject.

 

[joshpiece]

Lemme ask a question if a plant is fighting a soul manip fighter does the plant automatically have a soul now?

 

[Keeweed]

Yeah, because there isn’t anything claiming it doesn’t have a soul, while the opponent is claiming it has a soul.

 

[Bernkastelll]

The standard assumption is that characters have 0 resistance to soul related hax unless otherwise stated or shown. That is the plain and simple part.

yeah thats the standard assumption, cool I guess? Where is the legitimacy behind said assumptions? Literally none other than ''a lot of people belive tho''

 

[Urshani]

Made up and unproved things >>> Accuracy then, that's what the wiki is doing, but hey.

Because this isn't a serious political or whatever debate forum. We are here, to debate who wins when character 1 punches character 2 in the face. We are not here to debate life and death.

 

[Keeweed]

yeah thats the standard assumption, cool I guess? Where is the legitimacy behind said assumptions? Literally none other than ''a lot of people belive tho''

What’s the legitimacy of soul manipulation as a power in and of itself? People believe in it. In the real world we have claims versus whether or not souls exist. In fiction the verses in question don’t make any claims for or against souls. So the opponent believing they have souls makes a claim against them that they don’t counter in any way.

 

[Bernkastelll]

What’s the legitimacy of soul manipulation as a power in and of itself?

Because soul manipulation is a power, characters does have it, that's it.

In the real world we have claims versus whether or not souls exist. In fiction the verses in question don’t make any claims for or against souls. S

some fictional works says that it exists, but and? it doesnt means that it exist to others verses, and as an unproved and not reliable, it should not be an assumption to all verses, because it simply does not have proofs to exist

 

[Urshani]

Because soul manipulation is a power, characters does have it, that's it.

some fictional works says that it exists, but and? it doesnt means that it exist to others verses, and as an unproved and not reliable, it should not be an assumption to all verses, because it simply does not have proofs to exist

if you apply this to one power apply it to all the others

 

[Bernkastelll]

if you apply this to one power apply it to all the others

What? Why? Verse X have made up things there, it does not means that said Made Up things exist in others verses

 

[joshpiece]

What claim is being there when there is no claims of whatever they have a soul or not in a fictional setting. To say they don’t have souls required a actual burden of proof.

Let me quote myself

If you make a claim that someone can kill an opponent due to them having soul manipulation you by burden of proof have to prove that 1. That person has a soul for you to manipulate and 2. That soul is weak enough to get manipulated.

That is said claim I’m referring to.

The standard assumption is that characters have 0 resistance to soul related hax unless otherwise stated or shown. That is the plain and simple part.

That assumption is throwing the burden of proof fallacy away like a piece of trash in favor of the side making the soul manip claim. You cannot manipulate something that is not proven to exist in that specific universe.

Yeah, because there isn’t anything claiming it doesn’t have a soul, while the opponent is claiming it has a soul.

That is incredibly wrong. That is not how claims work at all you need to have evidence or proof to make said claim actually vaild or correct. Otherwise you have an unproven claim that holds no weight whatsoever.

 

[Urshani]

What? Why? Verse X have made up things there, it does not means that said Made Up things exist in others verses

then all powers cease to work

 

[Keeweed]

“That is not how claims work at all you need to have evidence or proof to make said claim actually vaild or correct.”

We do have proof though. The opposing verse says they exist.

 

[Urshani]

One verse's 'Yes' >>>>>>>>>>> One Verse's 'No answer'

 

[Bernkastelll]

then all powers cease to work

No, they dont, several powers are just the manipulation of things that already exist

One verse's 'Yes' >>>>>>>>>>> One Verse's 'No answer'

No, if a verse have a shit called AIOQUSDWHAIUSDGHAUISD, and said AIOQUSDWHAIUSDGHAUISD is what made up the humans, it does not means that the other verse has AIOQUSDWHAIUSDGHAUISD, as AIOQUSDWHAIUSDGHAUISD is a made up and unproved thing and only exist in a specific verse

 

[Keeweed]

Well it’s more: one verse says literally nothing and is completely unknowns versus the other making a hard claim that is very clearly true. There is nothing to invalidate the claim and we know the claim is true for the one with soul manipulation, so it should work just fine as the other verse has nothing stopping it.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

You know what, I think the OP makes a lot of sense. Souls weren’t ever proved as a concept, so why would we assume fictional works with souls not ever mentioned have souls? And no “most works have souls” isn’t a good response ce

 

[Bernkastelll]

Well it’s more: one verse says literally nothing and is completely unknowns versus the other making a hard claim that is very clearly true. There is nothing to invalidate the claim and we know the claim is true for the one with soul manipulation, so it should work just fine.

burden of proof

 

[Bernkastelll]

''A lot of verses have Mermaid, so, Mermaids must exist in all others verses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!''

''A lot of verses have Pixies, so, Pixies must exist in all others verses!!!!!!!!!''

 

[Urshani]

burden of proof

already solved, there is no clear cut answer-this nerfs supernatural verses unfairly