Whatever.

[LordGinSama]

Nothing to see here.

 

[Everything12]

I'm pretty sure the Soul King wasn't around before Creation though, from what I've heard he simply emerged in the Chaotic world before Bleach's current cosmology. Such as place lacked the distinction between Life and Death, but did not lack Causality.

I've got more to say on the rest of the OP, but I feel its best I do this in individual chunks as walls of text can get a bit too confusing quickly.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm pretty sure the Soul King wasn't around before Creation though, from what I've heard he simply emerged in the Chaotic world before Bleach's current cosmology. Such as place lacked the distinction between Life and Death, but did not lack Causality.

I've got more to say on the rest of the OP, but I feel its best I do this in individual chunks as walls of text can get a bit too confusing quickly.

Yeah I worded that incorrectly, the Soul King was around back when the universe worked on a very different system, ranging from different concepts being enforced and such. He then changed everything about the realms, making them work under a new system and adding in new concepts, such as the concepts of life and death.

 

[Everything12]

I'm pretty sure that theirs no evidence that, when splitting the world and introducing the new Concept of Life and Death, he also changed the Causality of the World. So I don't think this is any evidence for Acausality Type 4, especially as the way he changed the world is by using The Almighty which works by controlling Fate by selecting Timelines. Which likely points to them sharing the same Causality if the progression from one worlds system to the next was through a power that manipulates Causality.

 

[Eganergo]

I failed to see how that is acausal at all.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What the above said. Plus, what does the Soul King being back when the universe worked on a "very different system" have to do with anything about casuality? You might as well argue everyone in the old universe at that time would fall under type 4, which is an even bigger no no.

The only thing that holds water is him having casuality manipulation resistance, and looking back, even that is shaky. Wasnt it said somewhere that the Almighty is able to make it so that things broken in the future stay broken? Like Ichigos Bankai, which Orihime's Saten Kishun also failed to effect? The Soul King was killed by the Almighty being factored in, and Yhwach wanted the Soul King to be dead. So why wouldnt this just be Yhwach having Almighty to, once again, keep him dead just like he did with Ichigo's sword?

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm pretty sure that theirs no evidence that, when splitting the world and introducing the new Concept of Life and Death, he also changed the Causality of the World. So I don't think this is any evidence for Acausality Type 4, especially as the way he changed the world is by using The Almighty which works by controlling Fate by selecting Timelines. Which likely points to them sharing the same Causality if the progression from one worlds system to the next was through a power that manipulates Causality.

False and I'll explain.



Firstly, no everything was different before the Soul decided to change it himself. Tis even in the exert I posted in the OP. During that age, all of creation was in a state of ambiguity. There was neither life nor death; progression and regression flickered to and fro. Swaying and swaying slowly; this waning and waxing world waited for a hundred million years to cool down.


everything in that point in time was in a state of complete ambiguity, which would mean even the system of Cause and Effect would be different, and that's made evident with Orihime's own Causality Manipulation (I.E control and manipulation over the current worlds Causality system.) failed to work on the Soul King after he died. The fault in your argument is that we have a direct statement of everything in that age working differently, the Concept of Life and Death weren't the only thing he created and altered, he quite literally changed everything.


And the Fate tid bit absolutely in no way counters the arguement of him having Type 4. Firstly, it grants the user Resistance against Fate Manipulation, they still exist in the future making them liable to some forms of Fate Manipulation. And the Almighty isn't the ability to "pick out of the timelines" but to create future's to the users liking and no, The Almighty isn't control over Causality it's the direct manipulation over Fate. Even using your own argument, Orihime's own Causality manipulation which is under the current rules of the New Realms was unable to interact with the Soul King despite her Causality Manipulation.

What the above said. Plus, what does the Soul King being back when the universe worked on a "very different system" have to do with anything about casuality? You might as well argue everyone in the old universe at that time would fall under type 4, which is an even bigger no no.

Firstly no, that's most certainly misconstruing my argument to quite the extreme extent, nobody and I mean nobody shares the same type of existence as the Soul King in Bleach so that comparison doesn't work in the slightest. And again context, The Soul King still works on said rules which existed prior to that of the current ones, everything and I quote, everything was ambiguous back then before The Soul king altered everything to it's current state. Type 4 is defined as functioning underneath a different set of Causality, which would be the case for The Soul King.

The only thing that holds water is him having casuality manipulation resistance, and looking back, even that is shaky. Wasnt it said somewhere that the Almighty is able to make it so that things broken in the future stay broken? Like Ichigos Bankai, which Orihime's Saten Kishun also failed to effect? The Soul King was killed by the Almighty being factored in, and Yhwach wanted the Soul King to be dead. So why wouldnt this just be Yhwach having Almighty to, once again, keep him dead just like he did with Ichigo's sword?

Two things

A: There's a lot more evidence than just that, let's not be automatically dismissive of the circumstances at hand, because the context wasn't understood cleary.


B: Yhwach didn't kill The Soul King with the Almighty, he used his control over Quincy Blood to control Ichigo and made him stab The Soul King. It's just that Orihime's own Causality manipulation couldn't work on The Soul King due to him operating underneath a different set of Cause and Effect from the original world, which again is Type 4.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

False and I'll explain.



Firstly, no everything was different before the Soul decided to change it himself. Tis even in the exert I posted in the OP. During that age, all of creation was in a state of ambiguity. There was neither life nor death; progression and regression flickered to and fro. Swaying and swaying slowly; this waning and waxing world waited for a hundred million years to cool down.

Again, as someone said above, this has nothing to do with causality.

everything in that point in time was in a state of complete ambiguity, which would mean even the system of Cause and Effect would be different, and that's made evident with Orihime's own Causality Manipulation (I.E control and manipulation over the current worlds Causality system.) failed to work on the Soul King after he died. The fault in your argument is that we have a direct statement of everything in that age working differently, the Concept of Life and Death weren't the only thing he created and altered, he quite literally changed everything.

Reio's Conceptual Manipulation doesnt apply to anything else but what was confirmed he had a direct hand over, which was life and death. And him changing everything from the old universe into the current cosmology is completely irrelevant. Thats like saying any universe or multiverse creator would fall under this since they would have had to do the same thing as well for their creations.

And the Fate tid bit absolutely in no way counters the arguement of him having Type 4. Firstly, it grants the user Resistance against Fate Manipulation, they still exist in the future making them liable to some forms of Fate Manipulation. And the Almighty isn't the ability to "pick out of the timelines" but to create future's to the users liking

Uh, what? Yhwach outright said the power of the Almighty is to shape the future. Not create it. He can rewrite futures, but nothing more than that.

Firstly no, that's most certainly misconstruing my argument to quite the extreme extent,

The soul king came into being after the old universe already existed, like everyone else present at the time as well. I fail to see how thats anything less than a fair viable point to mention.

nobody and I mean nobody shares the same type of existence as the Soul King in Bleach so that comparison doesn't work in the slightest.

Based on what?

And again context, The Soul King still works on said rules which existed prior to that of the current ones, everything and I quote, everything was ambiguous back then before The Soul king altered everything to it's current state. Type 4 is defined as functioning underneath a different set of Causality, which would be the case for The Soul King.

Again, no it isnt, unless every single universal - multiversal creator or warper gets the same thing. And im sure you don't want to leave yourself open to that.

B: Yhwach didn't kill The Soul King with the Almighty, he used his control over Quincy Blood to control Ichigo and made him stab The Soul King.

Yes and that was done with the Almighty. Yhwach confirms this himself. Im-reading the chapters now and can show you the scans:

Yhwach used the Almighty to give Ichigo some of his spiritual pressure, which called out to his Quincy blood and killed the Soul King. And this doesnt even factor in the fact that Yhwach stabbed the soul king before Ichigo showed up, and Yhwach had Almighty active when killing Reio as he had just come from wiping the floor with Ichibe.

It's just that Orihime's own Causality manipulation couldn't work on The Soul King due to him operating underneath a different set of Cause and Effect from the original world, which again is Type 4.

First, dont come into this thread with an already pre-established notion that your proposal is fact and then dismiss counter arguments. Thats not how CRT's work.

Second, its as I and others said already on why coming from the original world does not fly here.

 

[LordGinSama]

There's a lot, and I mean a lot wrong with above, and it's inherent but since it's getting late I'm not gonna be able to reply to that. Needless to say there's a lot of context to be reviewed with that, unfortunately I won't be able to get into tomorrow night. I will however tackle this point, since it's well stupid to be frank.


"Based on what?"


....really my dude? Like have you ever read Bleach? You really wanna sit here and insinuate that the Lynchpin God tier of the verse, who's vastly different than any other being in the verse? I really shouldn't even need to address this.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Him being a lynchpin later on is irrelevant to the question. The SK, like everyone else, was born into the old universe after it already existed, so that would already make everyone else following the same laws of the old universe as the soul king originally did.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I’ve no opinion on type 4 as these abilities don’t make much sense to me.

But regarding what I read above. His existence is very different from others around that time. He’s essentially described as a paradox as far as I can understand.

He’s both in a state in constant stagnation and evolution due to his governance over evolution and stagnation.

The only other living person from said world that is living would be Ichibei and he described him as one of a kind.

As for Abstract Existence he doesn’t really qualify due to lack of information at least for the current types. He’d only qualify as a type 3 if it were still around.

 

[Makstar05]

Yhwach used the Almighty to give Ichigo some of his spiritual pressure, which called out to his Quincy blood and killed the Soul King. And this doesnt even factor in the fact that Yhwach stabbed the soul king before Ichigo showed up, and Yhwach had Almighty active when killing Reio as he had just come from wiping the floor with Ichibe.

This scan proves nothing since The Almighty didn't have the power to change the future at that time.Evidence is that Ichibe was able to revive himself after getting splattered by Yhwach.

 

[Eganergo]

This scan proves nothing since The Almighty didn't have the power to change the future at that time.Evidence is that Ichibe was able to revive himself after getting splattered by Yhwach.

That is Yhwach limitation, not Almighty. It is described as it is and works as it is.

 

[Makstar05]

That is Yhwach limitation, not Almighty. It is described as it is and works as it is.

Yhwach never described The Almighty as having the power to change fate untill his final fight with Ichigo.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yhwach never described The Almighty as having the power to change fate untill his final fight with Ichigo.

That doesnt mean he wasn't using it in that manner beforehand, that simply means we did not yet know at the time.

 

[Makstar05]

That doesnt mean he wasn't using it in that manner beforehand, that simply means we did not yet know at the time.

No.All of the descriptions he gave about the Almighty up till the Ichigo fight never contained info regarding his fate manip,and he doesn't lie.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No.All of the descriptions he gave about the Almighty up till the Ichigo fight never contained info regarding his fate manip,and he doesn't lie.

Likely because he didn’t need to.

Yhwach activated Almighty less than 5 minutes before stomping Ichibei and making his way all the way up the Reioku to slay Reio, has a brief encounter with Ichigo and the gang before Uryu and the others knocked them out of the Reioku. After that, Yhwach devours Reio and goes to sleep, waking up just before his fight with Ichigo and Orihime, where he then goes into more detail about Almighty

Yhwach barely had any full fledged fight before fighting Ichigo, so him not explaining that part of Almighty yet until later would be viable.

 

[LordGinSama]

Again, as someone said above, this has nothing to do with causality.

It absolutely does, everything back when the Soul King was different, we have direct statements about everything being different back then, why this wouldn't include the laws of Causality whenever we're told "everything" was different back then, which again would include Causality. This just strikes me as blatant nitpicking more than anything to be frank, given the fact that literally everything was different back then, concepts, laws, physics, etc.

Reio's Conceptual Manipulation doesnt apply to anything else but what was confirmed he had a direct hand over, which was life and death. And him changing everything from the old universe into the current cosmology is completely irrelevant. Thats like saying any universe or multiverse creator would fall under this since they would have had to do the same thing as well for their creations.

First of all, this exert here is irrelevant entirely. I never once insinuated that Rei-o's Conceptual Manipulation can be applied to other concepts, my argument wasn't even based around this but okay? My argument is that back when he was alive, everything was different, including various concepts. I.E the concept of Life and Death weren't even thought of back when Rei-o was around, making the established rules different from the modern times. It seems like you've misconstrued my argument as "The Rei-o can manipulate concepts" as the proof rather than the intended argument of the rules being different before he came into the picture. Stagnation and Progression went back and forth at an incredible rate (again, making it different than the modern rules.)

Uh, what? Yhwach outright said the power of the Almighty is to shape the future. Not create it. He can rewrite futures, but nothing more than that.

This part is true, I actually had the Almighty confused with The Book of the End which is the Fate Manipulation in Bleach that recreates timelines in the past. So I'll concede on this one, my b.

The soul king came into being after the old universe already existed, like everyone else present at the time as well. I fail to see how thats anything less than a fair viable point to mention.

The Soul King is the only one who would retain the rules of the old Universe, he's much, much, much older than Ichibei and the others and his existence is on an entirely different level than that of Shinigami, Hollows or any other species. The Soul King is an oddity that nobody else can come close to comparing to in terms of existence. A literal walking contradiction, alive but not alive, stagnant yet ever evolving. This really shouldn't be an argument.

Based on what?

The literal point of the Manga and the Novels, both of which make it abundantly clear that he's a different form of existence as opposed to the other species.

Again, no it isnt, unless every single universal - multiversal creator or warper gets the same thing. And im sure you don't want to leave yourself open to that.

Once again, this is you completely misconstruing the entire argument. You continue to argue against soemthing I'm not even basing my argument off of? That example falls flat, due to various reasons.
A: Rei-O just doesn't manipulate Reality, The Almighty is much, much more complex than Reality Warping (to a reasonable extent, don't try to @ me with Masda tier Reality Warping that branches into several other haxes.)

B: Not even using this as an arguement.

Yes and that was done with the Almighty. Yhwach confirms this himself. Im-reading the chapters now and can show you the scans:

Yhwach used the Almighty to give Ichigo some of his spiritual pressure, which called out to his Quincy blood and killed the Soul King. And this doesnt even factor in the fact that Yhwach stabbed the soul king before Ichigo showed up, and Yhwach had Almighty active when killing Reio as he had just come from wiping the floor with Ichibe.

Yhwach didn't use Fate Manipulation in order to control Ichigo, which is what your argument seems to suggest. The Almighty has several functions, precognition, power null, Fate Manipulation and body Control. He didn't use Fate Manipulation to control Ichigo, all he did was use his own Reiatsu to manipulate Ichigo into stabbing the Rei-O, so while he used the Almighty he didn't use Fate applications. And the second part is irrelevant as Rei-O didn't die from the first stab, he was still fine until Ichigo slashed him in half.

First, dont come into this thread with an already pre-established notion that your proposal is fact and then dismiss counter arguments. Thats not how CRT's work.

Firstly, I never dismissed arguments, how's about you don't try to accuse me of such an accusations? I directly responded to the counter arguments, nor have I came in with pre-established notions that my CRT will be accepted. We're in the middle of a debate, I of course am going to be arguing on behalf of the evidence I provid, but nice attempt to discredit me lol.

Second, its as I and others said already on why coming from the original world does not fly here.

Funny how you tell me to not come in with pre-established notions yet you create your own pre-established notions while also blatantly being dismissive of my argument. Firstly, that user is inherently wrong, first in the fact that he assumes that The Almighty manipulates Causality, The Almighty manipulates Fate, not Causality. Probability based Fate Manipulation, not Causality based Manipulation and ignored the direct statement of everything being different, which would include Causality otherwise it wouldn't be everything.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Maybe i could see type 2 due to not going forward or backward

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, none of this is Type 4.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah, none of this is Type 4.

Explain as to why otherwise unfollow the thread. I've already explained several times as to why this would indeed qualify as Type 4 as per the definition.

Again, everything was different back in the Old Universe, which would include Causality. All of creation was different back then.

 

[Planck69]

The fact that differing causality is an assumption, nothing more. If this gets accepted then kudos but I can't really accept these kinds of deductions.

 

[LordGinSama]

Maybe i could see type 2 due to not going forward or backward

I'm not sure as to how that's type 2, Type 4 is working on a different set of causes and effects, here we have a pretty similar case, being that the character in question came from a universe that had very different fundamental rules than the current Universe.

The fact that differing causality is an assumption, nothing more. If this gets accepted then kudos but I can't really accept these kinds of deductions.

It's not an assumption whenever we have direct statements of everything being different, and again this would include Causality otherwise "All" wouldn't be used.

 

[Hasty12345]

i disagree fra

Furthermore, I think it's a stretch to use a single statement (an incredibly vague statement at that) to grant type 4 acausality.

 

[LordGinSama]

I'm just gonna have a mod close this, I could care less about this subject at this point. Literally not even worth a shred of my energy here.



Peace.