Warriors of Heaven and Hell: The Most Skilled on the Wiki!

[WeeklyBattles]

I would probably have to make an "unconventional weapons" category for people who use stupid ass shit like LAMPS.

I mean, the whole reason he fights with a lamp is because it's a self imposed handicap because he can literally casually wield any martial weapon with more skill than anyone else in the verse. He is more skilled with a sword than any swordsman, more skilled with a spear, scythe, axe, etc.

 

[azontr]

I mean, the whole reason he fights with a lamp is because it's a self imposed handicap because he can literally casually wield any martial weapon with more skill than anyone else in the verse. He is more skilled with a sword than any swordsman, more skilled with a spear, scythe, axe, etc.

Yeah but like, if his main weapon of choice is a lamp and not any of those other weapons, then we wouldn't really have a category to put him in.

We could put him in Miscellaneous if he actually did just use any weapon he had on him akin to characters like Dante, but if he only primarily uses the lamp I don't got you chief.

 

[SomaKing13]

He'd go in the Sword category if that's his main weapon of choice, yes.

Do you have any suggestions for the spot he'd go in? If not he's just gonna be put in pending.

i'd probably leave him in pending rn because i don't know enough about normal "skill users" in comparison to people who their skill just turns into hax

 

[azontr]

i'd probably leave him in pending rn because i don't know enough about normal "skill users" in comparison to people who their skill just turns into hax

K. The only one listed in the Sword Users category is Ji Ning so your free to challenge the Chinaman for his spot, but if that doesn't suit your fancy he'll go into pending.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah but like, if his main weapon of choice is a lamp and not any of those other weapons, then we wouldn't really have a category to put him in.

We could put him in Miscellaneous if he actually did just use any weapon he had on him akin to characters like Dante, but if he only primarily uses the lamp I don't got you chief.

The lamp is just what he uses as a handicap, he is fully capable of and has on multiple times just used whatever other weapons he gets his hands on and outskills anyone else who uses the same kind of weapon

 

[azontr]

The lamp is just what he uses as a handicap, he is fully capable of and has on multiple times just used whatever other weapons he gets his hands on and outskills anyone else who uses the same kind of weapon

Then he can just go into Miscellaneous lel.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

For example, in one of his fights he was holding back immensely against a member of the dauntless vanguard (one of the highest ranking members of the Demacian army, a legendary warrior who has trained since childhood to be a master of numerous weapons and recognized as one of the most skilled weapon masters in the world) to the point that he offered to fight one handed to try to make it fair, then casually disarmed the guy and wielded his own sword against him and in three swings was described as displaying more skill that the opponent had in their entire life

 

[LordGinSama]

Weekly you'd need quite the long list to get him there with the listed skill feats of all the LoL champions.


Even then I think that would only place him in Misc since his skill isn't bound to one form of combat.

 

[azontr]

But like yeah I'd need an entire list of all the LoL skill feats since Jax is apparently a composite of all of that.

And even then he'd still just go in pending since you'd have to either fight Dante for his current number 1 spot or place him in any of the lower spots.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Weekly you'd need quite the long list to get him there with the listed skill feats of all the LoL champions.


Even then I think that would only place him in Misc since his skill isn't bound to one form of combat.

But like yeah I'd need an entire list of all the LoL skill feats since Jax is apparently a composite of all of that.

And even then he'd still just go in pending since you'd have to either fight Dante for his current number 1 spot or place him in any of the lower spots.

Ye, gonna do that as soon as I get home, just wanted to make sure he was brought up

 

[WeeklyBattles]

But like yeah I'd need an entire list of all the LoL skill feats since Jax is apparently a composite of all of that.

And even then he'd still just go in pending since you'd have to either fight Dante for his current number 1 spot or place him in any of the lower spots.

Oh he undoubtedly beats Dante, like it's not even a close comparison. Dante might have good feats but LoL's skill stuff is insane

 

[azontr]

Oh he undoubtedly beats Dante, like it's not even a close comparison. Dante might have good feats but LoL's skill stuff is insane

Bold claims Challenge the DMC goons and find out.

 

[Shmooply]

Bold claims Challenge the DMC goons and find out.

Or, in layman's terms:
"**** around and find out."

 

[WeeklyBattles]

people really forgetting that LoL is currently accepted as being on the same level as warhammer and nasuverse in terms of skill

 

[azontr]

people really forgetting that LoL is currently accepted as being on the same level as warhammer and nasuverse in terms of skill

Don't you mean Wankhammer and Wanksuverse?

 

[Shmooply]

people really forgetting that LoL is currently accepted as being on the same level as warhammer and nasuverse in terms of skill

Do you have a source on that? Source? A source. I need a source. Sorry, I mean I need a source that explicitly states your argument. This is just tangential to the discussion. No, you can't make inferences and observations from the sources you've gathered. Any additional comments from you MUST be a subset of the information from the sources you've gathered. You can't make normative statements from empirical evidence. Do you have a degree in that field? A college degree? In that field? Then your arguments are invalid. No, it doesn't matter how close those data points are correlated. Correlation does not equal causation. Correlation does not equal causation. CORRELATION. DOES. NOT. EQUAL. CAUSATION. You still haven't provided me a valid source yet. Nope, still haven't. I just looked through all 308 pages of your user history, figures I'm debating a glormpf supporter. A moron.

 

[YungManzi]

There's probably other people in miscellaneous more skilled than her but just for fun... Rishia Ivyred:

1) She can use acrobatics to greatly lessen the impact of falls and attacks;
Uses walls, ceilings, tress, and even her opponent themselves as a foothold to launch herself off-of and control her momentum
And she can nimbly dodge between a rain of projectiles (Danmaku)

2) She could perfectly copy the sword techniques of someone who won a national sword tournament after only seeing them once.

3) She could copy and master the techniques of the Hengen Muso style which normally take a lifetime to master after seeing them once.

4) She's stated to be a talent that comes once every hundred years.

5) Can cut down and deflect magical and physical danmaku with her sword.

6) She's a master of all fighting ranges (Short, Mid, Long) and disciplines in the verse, being a Jack of All Trades who can effectively use any projectile weapon, and often does. Using daggers, kunai, swords, boomerangs, chakram, knives, hatchets, short spears, bolas, Kodachi, Small sword, Knives, Iron Spikes and many more.

7) As the Projectile Hero She fights against people who can do the same as Naofumi, which is; knock projectile attacks back at the attacker via deflecting with weapon skill and break weapons.

Not sure how to exactly qualify her other Hengen Muso techniques, because in-verse it's martial arts but certainly involves supernatural energy. Like Ki techniques in Dragonball. With those techniques she can do things like predict attacks and movements of much faster characters by sensing their life force, sense locations and energy, target insides and organs/Do more damage the stronger the opponent is, see invisible things. ect. There's even a technique for nullifying statistics amplification.

 

[azontr]

There's probably other people in miscellaneous more skilled than her but just for fun... Rishia Ivyred:

1) She can use acrobatics to greatly lessen the impact of falls and attacks;
Uses walls, ceilings, tress, and even her opponent themselves as a foothold to launch herself off-of and control her momentum
And she can nimbly dodge between a rain of projectiles (Danmaku)

2) She could perfectly copy the sword techniques of someone who won a national sword tournament after only seeing them once.

3) She could copy and master the techniques of the Hengen Muso style which normally take a lifetime to master after seeing them once.

4) She's stated to be a talent that comes once every hundred years.

5) Can cut down and deflect magical and physical danmaku with her sword.

6) She's a master of all fighting ranges (Short, Mid, Long) and disciplines in the verse, being a Jack of All Trades who can effectively use any projectile weapon, and often does. Using daggers, kunai, swords, boomerangs, chakram, knives, hatchets, short spears, bolas, Kodachi, Small sword, Knives, Iron Spikes and many more.

7) As the Projectile Hero She fights against people who can do the same as Naofumi, which is; fling projectile attacks back at the attacker via deflecting with weapon skill and break weapons.

Not sure how to exactly qualify her Hengen Muso techniques, because in-verse it's martial arts but certainly involves supernatural energy. Like Ki techniques in Dragonball. With those techniques she can do things like predict attacks and movements of much faster characters by sensing their life force, sense locations and energy, target insides and organs/Do more damage the stronger the opponent is, see invisible things. ect. There's even a technique for nullifying statistics amplification.

Hm, I can put her in pending for Miscellaneous if you want.

 

[azontr]

Also in terms of danmaku dodging guys it'd be best if you more thoroughly described the severity of the danmaku or provided scans, since danmaku is really loose in terms of potency.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Do you have a source on that? Source? A source. I need a source. Sorry, I mean I need a source that explicitly states your argument. This is just tangential to the discussion. No, you can't make inferences and observations from the sources you've gathered. Any additional comments from you MUST be a subset of the information from the sources you've gathered. You can't make normative statements from empirical evidence. Do you have a degree in that field? A college degree? In that field? Then your arguments are invalid. No, it doesn't matter how close those data points are correlated. Correlation does not equal causation. Correlation does not equal causation. CORRELATION. DOES. NOT. EQUAL. CAUSATION. You still haven't provided me a valid source yet. Nope, still haven't. I just looked through all 308 pages of your user history, figures I'm debating a glormpf supporter. A moron.

I can get the warhammer supporters to co firm this, I've discussed it in length with them

 

[Shmooply]

Also in terms of danmaku dodging guys it'd be best if you more thoroughly described the severity of the danmaku or provided scans, since danmaku is really loose in terms of potency.

Sure, but only one rule.
No Touhou characters, otherwise I could just submit some random fodder and fill up the entire list.

 

[azontr]

Sure, but only one rule.
No Touhou characters, otherwise I could just submit some random fodder and fill up the entire list.

I mean dodging isn't all there is to skill, but if your gonna use it to supplement other skill feats then properly describing the severity of the danmaku would be necessary to properly judge

 

[YungManzi]

Also in terms of danmaku dodging guys it'd be best if you more thoroughly described the severity of the danmaku or provided scans, since danmaku is really loose in terms of potency.

Well the feat is text (Light Novel), so the most you'd see is literally just "A rain of projectiles". Not something you could count.

 

[First_Witch]

Sure, but only one rule.
No Touhou characters, otherwise I could just submit some random fodder and fill up the entire list.

Remember; No Touhou Call of Duty's Mokou

 

[azontr]

Well the feat is text (Light Novel), so the most you'd see is literally just "A rain of projectiles". Not something you could count.

Ah.

I mean for more like tangible cases lel, wasn't referring specifically to you.

 

[Shmooply]

I mean dodging isn't all there is to skill, but if your gonna use it to supplement other skill feats then properly describing the severity of the danmaku would be necessary to properly judge

Okay. I submit every single Windows era Touhou character except the fighting games-exclusive ones.
Reasons: EHH, EASY-MODO!?!

 

[azontr]

Okay. I submit every single Windows era Touhou character except the fighting games-exclusive ones.
Reasons: EHH, EASY-MODO!?!

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

people really forgetting that LoL is currently accepted as being on the same level as warhammer and nasuverse in terms of skill

Both fodder wanked

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

people really forgetting that LoL is currently accepted as being on the same level as warhammer and nasuverse in terms of skill

Boi Dante trashes nasuverse in skill a

@me bitches >:V

Also in terms of danmaku dodging guys it'd be best if you more thoroughly described the severity of the danmaku or provided scans, since danmaku is really loose in terms of potency.

Dante dodges danmaku, arms and getting bombarded with all manner of death from an omnipresent s
Void while being inside of it.

Best comparison I can make is like dodging water while being at the bottom of the ocean.

 

[azontr]

Dante dodges danmaku, arms and getting bombarded with all manner of death from an omnipresent s
Void while being inside of it.

Best comparison I can make is like dodging water while being at the bottom of the ocean.

Sounds less like skill and more so like bullshit that can't be quantified.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Will bring the Arifureta characters later (in some hours do to now be budy) for martial arts, markmaship and sword users, though Kouki already had his skill feats and posted in the last thread (with some of them posted in the op) and was under Ji Ning (was comparable with him) so you could probably put him below Ji Ning again to not have that long debate again.

 

[azontr]

Will bring the Arifureta characters later (in some hours do to now be budy) for martial arts, markmaship and sword users, though Kouki already had his skill feats and posted in the last thread (with some of them posted in the op) and was under Ji Ning (was comparable with him) so you could probably put him below Ji Ning again to not have that long debate again.

I looked at that, and one of your links for that is broken:

which is explained in this post

The one explaining the Yaegashi style. So you'd need to fix that first.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Sounds less like skill and more so like bullshit that can't be quantified.

Yeah i know. We currently list it as instinctive reaction since not even Dante has any idea of what just happened or how he was fighting.

Ngl it's the dumbest feat of the verse along with fear haxing a building. Funnily enough both happen in the same novel

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I looked at that, and one of your links for that is broken:

The one explaining the Yaegashi style. So you'd need to fix that first.

Fixed.

 

[azontr]

Fixed.

K.

Currently, I'm waiting on @Soma_King to decide whether or not he wants Archaon to gun for a spot in the Sword Users category, so I'll wait for him before placing Kouki in the list.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Also Kratos from God of War. He is literally the God of War.

He has also killed being that existed before time who only know how to fight, entire armies while he wasn't a God, he was a spartan general, can master any weapon like Dante among other shit.

Second place for miscellaneous I guess.

 

[azontr]

Also Kratos from God of War. He is literally the God of War.

He has also killed being that existed before time who only know how to fight, entire armies while he wasn't a God, he was a spartan general, can master any weapon like Dante among other shit.

Second place for miscellaneous I guess.

Man you gotta provide a more fleshed out list than this lol.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Also Kratos from God of War. He is literally the God of War.

He has also killed being that existed before time who only know how to fight, entire armies while he wasn't a God, he was a spartan general, can master any weapon like Dante among other shit.

Second place for miscellaneous I guess.

That would place him in fourth place when compared against LoL ovo

In LoL, Pantheon is the concept of war itself, and he was killed by Aatrox, who himself has fought and killed entire armies of beings who existed since before time and who created physical bodies with the sole purpose of fighting and killing, and based those bodies off of the combined combat skill of beings that were absorbed on an information level

 

[azontr]

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Well, gonna begin my arguments for the Arifureta characters, I will propose one character for a different classification, and since there will be a lot to mentioned I will try to structure things in the three classifications in the op, Experience, Precision, and Adaptability.

Edit: Since this took so long and I noticed how two of the profiles I want to propose are under revisions to add their skill feats I will wait to a later date to mention other characters aside from Hajime.

Spoiler: Hajime Nagumo (Firearm Users)

Experience: Hajime learned by himself how to fight while in the abyss (a 100 floor labyrinth with dozen of different super monsters with special powers) after he lost his left arm, at the beginning while still a a weak normal human endured more than ten days of hunger and phantom pain, and after the tenth day he began to train himself non-stop twenty-four seven, and despite how the pain and hunger only grew as time passed his will and transmutation skill also grew at extraordinary rate (his transmutation skill is important because with it he make his weapons), then after satisfy his immediate hunger and find something like gunpowder he began to develop his revolver Donner while focusing so much that he didn't eat or sleep for days and with thousands of trials. After finally get his revolver he began to advance through the abyss floors while developing his skills and facing a great variety of enemies in different types of environments (which was the specific concept behind the creation of this labyrinth), several times getting close to death and by the end he even had to fight the labyrinth boss with fatal injuries, with his eye vaporized and while protecting his lover. After that fight he trained for two entire months with Yue, with training sessions of several hours, while getting accustomed to his new arm, eye and dual gun style while also doing a precision training (will develop this part more in the precision section) which as result caused him to gain a skill level that no amount of martial arts practice could ever reach (btw he also mastered the art of gun fu, aerial reload, aerial combat and more). Do to his immense combat experience his body is able to fight instinctively withou him thinking. Have fought in a great amount of enviroments (the abyss, places were magic is unusuable, inside a volcan in a sea of magma, under water, snowfields, in a place with a mist that affected one senses, etc) agains't a great variety of enemies (which included some bizarre things like giant slime able to regenerate as long there is water and he fought him in middle of the ocean, yeetis that had a combat cented figure skating, a perfect copy of himself, heck even a ocean of billions of super cockroaches with magic while under the effects of magic that changed his emotions so he deeply loved the cockroaches and deeply hated his party). Have defeated opponents with several thousands of years of experience like Miledi (who fought against basically all the world in a era where it was far common that people had special powers, outside of obviously magic since everyone can use that) or Apostles (who have served as the strongest servants of Ehit for probably tens of thousands of years), in the after stories he also defeated demons from hell (who had thousands of years of experience and could use ancient magic), while super nerfed (was unable to use magic and could only use his two guns) Mother (two hundred years old super computer so advanced that destroyed by herself an humanity so advanced that could affect space with their technology), and not even a weak after Mother battle fought against several hundreds of thousands apparitions (abstract beings born from the legend through all the worlds which each having their own special abilities based on their conception), he also traveled through most of the nine worlds so in general he have see all sort of worlds, beings and powers (he absorbed and incorporated those things he saw in those worlds to improve his own creations but that don't matter much to the point of this thread). Also, while his main weapon are his two guns, he is also really experienced with all types of other weapons (snipers, machine guns, rocket launchers, chakrams, flamethrower, etc., reason to why he have a super long list of artifacts).

Precision: With his guns he is able to shot down a spell core, which in verse is something that need extreme precision (to the point that the only other character show able to do that in the verse left amazed even the Liberators who were incredible genius that left their mark on history, though their current profiles don't reflect that very well but with after apply the recent crt that will change), and he mastered this after his training with Yue when he was getting accustomed to his new arm, eye and second gun, and was specifically trying not to dodge in a precision training to shot the spell's core of the barriage of spells from Yue. Perfected the art of midair reloading and gun fu, can reload while upside down in middle of a somersault, and canonically he can do the reloads of the dark tower protagonist (don't have the scans at hand, though I remember it happening in Mother arc and the words of the author about getting inspired by the film while searching material). While still in the middle of the abyss could use his gun recoil to dodge and after the abyss his maneuverability reached the point of dodge with the minimum amount movement a barrage of attacks from above as thickly packed as raindrops while carrying two persons (he used his guns in this feat so it not only count to his acrobatics but also markmanship). When focusing he can see the world at slow motion and with great detail. His arms are able to move independently from each other, with every single move linking perfectly to the next, backed by a level of experience that not amount of martial arts practice could ever reach. Can ricochet bullets off of various surfaces, thus he can attack from any angle. Is able to shot Noint's sword in the exact same spot in the entire fight until they broke while also calculating every element of the fight. Can save someone at a distance by shooting three bullets through twenty enemies using the tiny gaps of them without hitting any of it, this without even looking and while fighting a sea of monsters. Can fight purely by instincts without think. Do to grow in middle of combat he stomped a copy of himself after a short time. Can control hundreds (by the beginning of the after stories several thousands) of drones and robots simultaneously with his mind, I mention this part because they have machine guns, missiles and more, so moving all of them concurrently while he himself is fighting he a considerable thing to his precision. And more things but is already late and I don't have those scans at hand to show them, so maybe later I will try to expand this part with some more feats.

Adaptability: As I commented at the end of the previous part is already late, so will make this short. As one can notice with the previous feats and scans Hajime adaptability is quite great, he have adapted to any type of enviroment, enemies and whatever he have faced, he have a monstrous adaptation and even after see a spell once he is able to counter it, and while his monstrous adaptability is more notorious with his inventions his own combat skills also grow accordingly as saw in the previous parts (is also thanks to that adaptability that he developed so many abilitites), with even various times in which he needed to surpass his limits and adapt to what he faced, even while weakened (the entire arc of Mother is an example since he was super nerfed and had only his two guns, which remind me that all the feats of Kouki against Mother also scale to Hajime)

Hajime is comparable (actually above but well) to Kouki so he scale to his feats do to face him and the Mother arc where both were comparable (though again, Hajime was super nerfed), he similarly scale above everything else in the verse as one of the god tiers in skill. Man, would love to show the scans of her 6 years foster daughter becoming a super gunner just by seeing Hajime, the Haulia childs hiting with snipers moving Apostles from five kilometers away, and more things like that to show to what Hajime (and Kouki) scale above but don't have the scans in my computer so later when I get them is that I could post them.

Edit: This is a edit to add a general verse skill level explanation that I wrote listing above what most Arifureta characters with profiles scale, specially characters like Kouki.

Spoiler: General verse level

An human, who in verse is just decently skilled, is able to act perfectly normal while having his senses sealed (btw this character is unable to use magic or any supernatural power, so this is completely a pure skill feat). Acting without a sense or various senses is somehing consistent through the verse, with characters like Chris (who thanks to his battle honed instincts can dodge invisible spatial attacks), Vanessa (who had her eyesight robbed by a flashbang and even so could move in a room full of armed men), Gahard (who can not only defend against the ranged attacks of 120 Haulia from all directions with just the sound of the attacks alone while in complete darkness, but he can also do the same while having both his sight and hearing impaired do to the effects of flashbangs) or Detref (who could fight without any problem inside a fog with magical effects that affect the senses of the enemies inside), it's also said how just third-rate warriors relied just in their sight in a fight, and there are several more examples of situations of people fighting without be able to rely on their senses, some of which will appear in following scans.

Normal humans, humans unable to use any unique energy or supernatural power, can also do some extreme martial and acrobatics feats with high level of precision. Like for example the ones displayed in the fight between Kimberley and Allen (btw, the Berserkers mentioned are mutants created with a virus whihc transform people in strong monsters that can't die unless their brain is destroyed and who have potent regeneration), the fight of Vanessa vs Berserker Monkeys, the Allen vs Weiss, when Allen helped Taeko against demons and possessed fanatics (the demons were creatures invisible, that Allen couldn't sense nor perceive or even interact in any way and he only knew they were there, while the possessed fanatics were people with higher specs do to be possessed), when Sabas fought against the soldiers of the futuristic empire, in the whole Fukube vs onmyoujis fight (the onmyoujis were humans able to use special powers, that additionally summoned fantasy creatures called shikis which are basically monsters with some special trait), there is also how Liliana (a princess that never in her life had physical combat training) mastered Aikido from internet videos which is a decent martial feat. While not actually a martial or acrobatic feat, there are some good precision feats from childs, like the first time Myu used a weapon (Myu had 6 years and this was like two weeks after meet Hajime and become his foster daugther) or Par who sniped apostles from 5km below (Par is a 10 years old child).

The verse also have show groups with high skill regarding warfare, as show with the Haulia clan when they annihilated the demon forces that invaded the Haltina forest. Canonically the Yaegashi clan (a group of completely normal humans) is comparable with the Haulia clan and each have show to share and learn from the other clan, the Yaegashi clan is considered the leader of the ninja clans and are each member have deathly daily training regardless of their age or occupation, are group that can casually try to kill Hajime and who have defeated the elite forces of multiple countries who attacked he Returnees families (which should had the level of characters like Allen, Fukube and even Sabas).