Warhammer Fantasy: Incarnates vary quite a bit actually.

[DaReaperMan]

Let's do this.

For Varies itself, you know how mages vary depending on the winds of magic in the area? Consider that the same applies to Incarnates as the entire mechanics behind them are that they're literally housing a wind of magic inside themselves, thus making their power vary. Now remember, certain incarnates are still weaker than others, Balthasar Gelt is not about to physically box Tyrion, for instance. With that out of the way, let's go.

5-C​

Morskittar Engine is our main feat, it was powered during the end times with magical energy, not much more solid of a baseline you can get for this.
Mazdamundi High 6-A support.

5-B​

First Dragons

Mysterious entities from very early in the history of the universe. Masters of Magic, they could travel between stars with a single beat of their wings. Their battles completely destroying and creating worlds in the fires of their wars. Tier: At least 5-B, likely High 4-C Name: First Dragons...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This feat

High 4-C​

First Dragons are beeg
Azyr Mages BEFORE the end times could just move stars... with two seperate spells. Signs in the Stars and Star Times Ebb

Low 2-C​

But what about non-incarnates that scale?​

Well, you won't see them at 5-B. But case-by-case basis. Lizardmen Legendary Heroes would remain possibly 5-C, Arkhan would just have the Incarnate vary value at the end of his already lengthy magical vary, and Archaon the Everchosen would be Low 2-C.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I wish you would have waited but yes sure lol

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Proposals seem fine.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Seems fine

 

[SomaKing13]

Looks good to me

 

[Theglassman12]

looks ok to me.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

This has been implemented on the profiles weirdly. Generally it should be explained why the characters vary and under what conditions?

 

[Apeironaxim]

Ok so, with Varies there needs to be a reason why each end is displayed typically, and also on average there are only 2 ends displayed, a low/average end and a high end.
Let's look at some examples

Spoiler: Examples of how Varies is used

Such is shown with Skarbrand for a Warhammer example:

"Varies (Dependent upon the amount of slaughter he's done as well as the amount of Warp energy he has to draw from) from at least City Block level (Was once one of Khorne's greatest champions[12]. As such, he should be generally comparable to both Primarch and Daemon Angron. Fought[5] Roboute Guilliman for a short period of time. Bloodthirsters can cleave apart tanks[6] and Carnifexes in a single blow) to Planet level (Crashed straight through the hull of the[40] Blackstone Fortress. Shook an entire planet with his roars[41])"

And then Pennywise for an example from out of the series:

Attack Potency: Varies from Wall level (Tore George's arm off with ease.[16] Splintered Adrian's ribs by squeezing him.[21] Punched Victor's head off, and later peeled half of Belch's face off down to the bone.[24] Tore the heads off of Dawn Roy and Adam Terrault. Tore open Jeffrey Holly. Tore both of John Feury's legs off. Dismembered Jerry Bellwood.[14] Ripped apart a group of nine lumberjacks, including their heads, arms, and feet.[22] Transformations like his Paul Bunyan statue form should be this level from size alone, but in this form IT was easily able to chop a bench in two.[12] Ripped Eddie's arm off.[3] Can shapeshift into a[12] shark) to Large Mountain level+ (IT arriving on Earth caused a cataclysmic impact that "turned a big hill into a doughnut".[5] IT's death in its spider form, the form that most closely resembles IT's true form, caused a massive earthquake that destroyed downtown Derry,[2] which has been calculated to be worth 2.6 Gigatons. Said earthquake was far superior to the 1960 Valdivia Earthquake)

They have the lower/average end where they are at their lowest or most often, and then the higher end where the mechanic for why they vary places them at their top performance/showings. Hell Superman's profile even outright spells that fact out:

Tier: Varies, usually Low 5-B, 2-C at his peak

How you've implemented this seemingly goes against that:

Varies (An Incarnate's power varies depending on the magical power in the area[2]) from Moon level (As the Incarnate of Shysh Nagash is by far the most powerful incarnate and pre losing his Black Pyramid was confident he could take them all on at once. As having the entire lore of Shyish within his body, is comparable to the strongest feats of magic and power within the setting,[3] is comparable to the Morskittar Engine destroying Morslieb[3] and Lord Mazdamundi's consequent destruction of the various pieces.[3] Able to trade blows with Kha'Bhanda who casually fought most of the incarnates at once. Comparable to but weaker then Sigmar) to Planet level (Comparable to First Dragons whom could casually destroy entire planets[4]) to Large Star level (Comparable to First Dragons whom have eyes as large as a Star.[4] Mages even before The End Times could move stars with two seperate spells.[5] The unravelling of the Vortex extinguished stars[6]) Universe level+ (Nagash, as an Incarnate, contains an entire wind of magic within himself, which crystallizes into space-time for each new universe.[7] Comparable to other incarnates whom survived the Chaos Rift which was destroying the universe.[8])

You have listed all 4 tiers/ends with no actual reason for why all of them are listed at once. Going by typical Varies layout, Nagash and those like him should be "Varies (Justification) from Moon level (Lower end Justification) to Universe level+ (Higher/Top end Justification)". Now, if the series explains that say, Moon level is able to be done with low levels of magic, while Planet level can be achieved through average levels, and High 4-C with high levels of magic in the area, then that's at least a reason to list more than the typical 2 ends Varies encourages. However if such info is present in the series, it is not listed for each end/tier in the actual profile. I would recommend making the Tier "Varies from Moon level to Universe level+" for the reasons i've explained, as that appears to be the way the wiki wants Varies to be handled on a general basis

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ok so, with Varies there needs to be a reason why each end is displayed typically, and also on average there are only 2 ends displayed, a low/average end and a high end.
Let's look at some examples

Spoiler: Examples of how Varies is used

Such is shown with Skarbrand for a Warhammer example:

And then Pennywise for an example from out of the series:

They have the lower/average end where they are at their lowest or most often, and then the higher end where the mechanic for why they vary places them at their top performance/showings. Hell Superman's profile even outright spells that fact out:

How you've implemented this seemingly goes against that:

You have listed all 4 tiers/ends with no actual reason for why all of them are listed at once. Going by typical Varies layout, Nagash and those like him should be "Varies (Justification) from Moon level (Lower end Justification) to Universe level+ (Higher/Top end Justification)". Now, if the series explains that say, Moon level is able to be done with low levels of magic, while Planet level can be achieved through average levels, and High 4-C with high levels of magic in the area, then that's at least a reason to list more than the typical 2 ends Varies encourages. However if such info is present in the series, it is not listed for each end/tier. I would recommend making the Tier "Varies from Moon level to Universe level+" for the reasons i've explained, as that appears to be the way the wiki wants Varies to be handled on a general basis

Are you saying that Planet level and Large Star level don't have to be there to be considered proper tiers? That's the method to my madness here, last I checked, they all have to be listed, or you get into funky situations where Arkhan's magic doesn't fully scale to his physicals with it's varies.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Are you saying that Planet level and Large Star level don't have to be there to be considered proper tiers? That's the method to my madness here, last I checked, they all have to be listed, or you get into funky situations where Arkhan's magic doesn't fully scale to his physicals with it's varies.

To my knowledge and observation of how the wiki uses the Varies tier, you list a lower/average end, and then a higher/top end, just as i've shown with a few examples in my previous. All the feats inbetween the 2 tiers still have happened of course, but they are not listed on the profiles because of how the Varies tier seems to work.
Like obviously I assume Ahriman has not only shown High 8-C and High 4-C feats with his psyker abilities, but because of how the Varies tier works, only those 2 are listed because they are his lower/average end and his high/top end

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Are you saying that Planet level and Large Star level don't have to be there to be considered proper tiers? That's the method to my madness here, last I checked, they all have to be listed, or you get into funky situations where Arkhan's magic doesn't fully scale to his physicals with it's varies.

Why exactly would the varies start from 5-C? This does come across as just trying to get them into as many tiers as possible. If they scale to the best magic feats in the setting then they should scale to the first dragons/tier 4 mage feats by default and possibly Low 2-C at the high end

 

[DaReaperMan]

To my knowledge and observation of how the wiki uses the Varies tier, you list a lower/average end, and then a higher/top end, just as i've shown with a few examples in my previous. All the feats inbetween the 2 tiers still have happened of course, but they are not listed on the profiles because of how the Varies tier seems to work.

Honestly standards for Varies are like... Nonexistent in that regard.

"These are characters, weapons, etcetera, whose power levels are subject to change, as well as profiles of races/species whose power levels vary depending on the member. “Varies” ratings should only be given to characters who have a canon explanation for why their statistics fluctuate. This does not include characters who are simply inconsistent or have unexplainable variations in their displayed power level. The fluctuations in power must have a clear and logical basis within the character's respective canon."

This is all I could find on the matter.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Honestly standards for Varies are like... Nonexistent in that regard.

"These are characters, weapons, etcetera, whose power levels are subject to change, as well as profiles of races/species whose power levels vary depending on the member. “Varies” ratings should only be given to characters who have a canon explanation for why their statistics fluctuate. This does not include characters who are simply inconsistent or have unexplainable variations in their displayed power level. The fluctuations in power must have a clear and logical basis within the character's respective canon."

This is all I could find on the matter.

If need be I guess someone could make a thread regarding it? But you still have plenty of profiles to draw from for examples of how Varies is used in the way i've described. We're clearly not listing every possible separate tier feat they display all at once

 

[DaReaperMan]

Why exactly would the varies start from 5-C? This does come across as just trying to get them into as many tiers as possible. If they scale to the best magic feats in the setting then they should scale to the first dragons/tier 4 mage feats by default and possibly Low 2-C at the high end

Because 5-C is the lowest tier of something powered by pure magic with no fluff like a geomantic web behind it during the end times

I'd be happy to have 5-B as the low-end here though, just to clean it up

If need be I guess someone could make a thread regarding it? But you still have plenty of profiles to draw from for examples of how Varies is used in the way i've described. We're clearly not listing every possible separate tier feat they display all at once

Varies used to only list 2 tiers, as per an old excerpt on the Versus Thread Rules, but that has been taken out, as confusing as that is

 

[Apeironaxim]

Varies isn't limited purely to 2 tiers with no exceptions, however there have to be clear lines for a 3rd and above tier to be listed, usually with a specific piece of equipment or attack
Taking an example from one of my profiles:

Attack Potency: Varies (Tohu's primary method of combat revolves around her choosing and developing three 'faces' of parahumans, alive or dead, where she will gain their respective powers) from Large Building level (Alexandria and Legend are able to notably harm Echidna. Late transformation Lung can create massive walls of fire) to Multi-City Block level (Eidolon destroyed a third of a skyscraper with a gravity attack), City level with EMP Bomb (Glaistig Uaine has the Shade of Bakuda, who could make an EMP bomb with a yield of 9000 kilotons that could wipe out all circuity across 1/5th of America[51][52])

City level can be there because it is a distinct, specific thing that has its own distinctive tier. However, as implied by the fact it's a distinct thing, that means it's the exception to the standard of Varies profiles having only 2 ends, not the rule to include more than that as a baseline for every other profile

 

[DaReaperMan]

Varies isn't limited purely to 2 tiers with no exceptions, however there have to be clear lines for a 3rd and above tier to be listed, usually with a specific piece of equipment or attack
Taking an example from one of my profiles:

City level can be there because it is a distinct, specific thing that has its own distinctive tier. However, as implied by the fact it's a distinct thing, that means it's the exception to the standard of Varies profiles having only 2 ends, not the rule to include more than that as a baseline for every other profile

But it isn't a proper standard, what I quoted was the only thing I could find on Varies standards on the Attack Potency page

 

[Apeironaxim]

This is being kinda overly pedantic when what i've said is the case for like, every profile that uses Varies for cases like these, with someone's power who fluctuates for one reason or another. There really isn't much of a leg to stand on beyond going "Well technically it's not written out explicitly so nothing says I can't do it completely different from how every other profiles does it", and that's not really a good argument by itself, if anything it just looks pedantic and contrarian for almost the sake of it

 

[Blackcurrant91]

A baseline should probably be established. If we are even going to use the Caledor extinguishing stars feat with Azyr mages as supporting feat then the base should probably be tier 4 with First Dragons as supporting evidence.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Tier Reasonings themselves seem fine. But I agree; the "Varies" tiering doesn’t seem clear here. If their power shifts based on location, the reasoning should reflect that by showing how different locations yield different feats. Right now, the Moon to Planet level reasoning doesn’t indicate that one feat happened in one place and the other in another. If they’re truly comparable to the First Dragons, they should have the same AP scaling as them. And if they’re Universe level+, they should just be listed as Universe level+.

I get that the tier varies with location, but without AP reasoning supporting that, it seems more consistent to scale them to a single level.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Tier Reasonings themselves seem fine. But I agree; the "Varies" tiering doesn’t seem clear here. If their power shifts based on location, the reasoning should reflect that by showing how different locations yield different feats. Right now, the Moon to Planet level reasoning doesn’t indicate that one feat happened in one place and the other in another. If they’re truly comparable to the First Dragons, they should have the same AP scaling as them. And if they’re Universe level+, they should just be listed as Universe level+.

I get that the tier varies with location, but without AP reasoning supporting that, it seems more consistent to scale them to a single level.

We're currently figuring things out over discord, right now the consensus is "High 4-C, possibly Low 2-C" due to the consistency of the former and the latter being solid if iffy

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Oh, ok, I'll come back to this when you finish hashing it out.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh, ok, I'll come back to this when you finish hashing it out.

We're currently figuring things out over discord, right now the consensus is "High 4-C, possibly Low 2-C" due to the consistency of the former and the latter being solid if iffy

Consensus is this, 4-0!

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Seeing as this thread has become very convoluted now that the scaling in the OP has changed entirely I'm not sure how to proceed.

It should be noted that there is numerous other star feats in verse not mentioned so I think High 4-C, possibly Low 2-C makes sense given how saturated with magic the world is during the end times and how you would be containing 1/7th of the power that defines all of reality inside of you I think possibly Low 2-C is fine too. Should we do this in a further CRT however?

 

[Apeironaxim]

I guess technically the agreements in the thread already agree to the legitimacy of the feats presented? So it might not be needed if you're still using the above feats, but just no longer on a Varies rating? That's just my 2 cents, but I don't know if it would be considered better form/etiquette or not to make a new CRT with this proposal in mind.
The OP seems to also mention some Incarnates scaling definitively lower than others? So that might be complicated enough to explain on a new CRT for why these proposed weaker guys who wouldnt be scaling to some of the others are now scaling to High 4-C same as all the rest

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

I guess technically the agreements in the thread already agree to the legitimacy of the feats presented? So it might not be needed if you're still using the above feats, but just no longer on a Varies rating? That's just my 2 cents, but I don't know if it would be considered better form/etiquette or not to make a new CRT with this proposal in mind.
The OP seems to also mention some Incarnates scaling definitively lower than others? So that might be complicated enough to explain on a new CRT for why these proposed weaker guys who wouldnt be scaling to some of the others are now scaling to High 4-C same as all the rest

I could be wrong, but from what I've read it's mostly cause as incarnates they possess a whole wind of magic in them so they scale above most spells. Even if some incarnates are above others, they're, as a whole, stronger than spells normal people can cast.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I guess technically the agreements in the thread already agree to the legitimacy of the feats presented? So it might not be needed if you're still using the above feats, but just no longer on a Varies rating? That's just my 2 cents, but I don't know if it would be considered better form/etiquette or not to make a new CRT with this proposal in mind.
The OP seems to also mention some Incarnates scaling definitively lower than others? So that might be complicated enough to explain on a new CRT for why these proposed weaker guys who wouldnt be scaling to some of the others are now scaling to High 4-C same as all the rest

Abaddon was spot on.

Basically, some incarnates aren't melee fighters,(Balthasar Gelt and Teclis) some are,(Sigmar and Tyrion) some can do both ranged and melee,(Nagash and Malekith) definitively, they have to be able to contain the energy of an entire wind of magic, aka spells, within themselves.

The reason the tier 4 stuff doesn't apply outside of incarnates is due to not being combat focused, like Ainz's creation spell, however, unlike Ainz's creation spell, the Incarnates basically have a UES to them as they just contain that energy within themselves.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Then yeah I personally don't think another CRT needs to happen? Like, everyone already agreed with the feats being presented, and though it was via a different scaling method, thus would have agreed to them scaling to High 4-C and Low 2-C in some capacity. If another staff(s) disagrees, then oh well, but personally I don't really see much of a reason to make another CRT, considering not much even changed when you look at it overall

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I dont mind either way, as long as a consensus on how it's presented is reached

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Seeing as the profiles are still in the previous state (that reaper updated without saying anything). Do we proceed with changing them to the new proposed scaling?