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Warframe Minor Ability and Category additions and Composite Profile

Paul Frank said:
I didn't make it into my crt Sigurd made it into my crt ovo next we will talk about deconstruction and time travel
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Im beginning to hate you and your Kumagawa like saying "It's not my fault" with a passio
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
1. Uhm, rift? And manipulating the void avatars from solar systems away. For real though the operator's range is FAR beyond solar system level. But just manipulating Limbo and other warframes even in the rift and the fact that "Nothing besides void energy based attacks can hit things when in different planes of existence due to the rift"
2. Not exactly, warframes don't have a mind at all. The warframes are things that have been turned into infested, as such before the full transformation it is possible for warframes to think and act on their own. Once the transformation becomes full they are just mindless (Umbra seems to be the only exception), they wouldn't have been unable to move without void energy if they still had a mind. And about the Somatic Link, not exactly, that was "before" i mean before The War Within when they used the VR computer, now they do it with their own power cus the computer was fried by the Grennier Queens. It is just simple energy manipulation, they have used it before (manipulating the warframe using energy alone, without consciousness), why would every other case be different? IIRC there is 0 proof that the consciousness is transferred.

3. You got the gist of it, but about the mind and body. Not rly. What Ballas meant by "dualism is held as key. They the mind and the warframe the body" is because he is quite literally the mind that is moving the warframe, but that's through void energy, not by transferring the consciousness.
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ÒÇîIt's not my faultÒÇì

You're literally asleep when you control the warframes for a reason. You're called dreamers for that reason. The children from the Zariman were given their frames to control and direct their powers. So Margullis and later Lotus put the children to sleep in the pods so they can control the frames. Why would they need to be sleeping if it was only energy.

Here is Rhino Prime's codex entry:

Red lights flashing on stark, white walls. Davis is running ahead of me, dropping his notes. We're running for our lives. The fear gives me a strange perspective - I'm out of my body. I've forgotten how I got here. I don't recognize this place.

Davis and I slam pinned against a cell door and he shouts at me. I give him a dumb look. I can't hear him, the sirens, anything, only the muffled throb of terror in my head. I turn away from Davis down the hall and I see it. The hulking mass, flickering red, glinting like steel and fresh blood. Its skin changes, flowing like mercury when I'm blinded by the sudden muzzle-flashes. They do no good. The beast surges forward and the security men become crimson mist and gore.

I'm a statue, a cornered animal. A gate opens inside me and recognition floods in. I have seen this monster before. I have cut its shell and eviscerated its brothers. I have given it pain and measured its response. I have crafted then rejected countless like it. But I've never seen this beast so close, without the shield, without restraints. I have never seen it... free.

I know I will die so I just watch with curious acceptance. The beast squats down, shovelling a heap of gore into its mouth. It is watching me with vague eyes, a sense of recognition, ancestral memory. It knows who I am and what I've done. It rears up like a bear and roars, shattering the lights and casting us into darkness. I can hear it lumbering toward me, its metal fingers rending the walls, but I know I am dead. I close my eyes and stand ready to pay.

I feel the pull on my arm and realize Davis got the cell open. He tugs me into the cell beyond and I fall on my back. I see Davis standing at the open door, waiting, as the monster tears towards us.

Suddenly I could live through this I shout, "Davis, close the goddamn door!" - But he shakes his head eyes wide as moons. He shouts, "Watch!" over the roaring and rending of metal.

Then silence. Davis is panting, laughing? The beast fills the doorway, inches from him, dripping in blood, but still without violence. It stands there, looking at its hands. Davis whispers, "No one would have believed me."

I crawl up the wall to stand, opposite the door. I've never seen this cell, a cold place with an array of shelves. A morgue? "Where are we, Davis?"

"This is where they keep them. The ones from Zariman." I'm thrown, what was the Zariman? The ship that never returned? "Davis, what's going on?"

Davis turns to me, a smile forming - "What's going on is..." he turns back to the beast now silent and calm.

"...big, fat promotions."

He was killing them while not being controlled by an operator.

Also the fact that Umbra can move while you are using a void avatar kinda goes against your idea that it's only the energy controlling the frames as well. If it was only energy then Umbra would essentially be out of batteries when you exit him like the rest of the frames. This is notably not the case. However assuming it is the consciousness of the Tenno makes more sense here. When you exit a frame you can no longer control the frame with your consciousness. However Umbra has his own mind still so he can move around and fight.

Again there is Ordis' statement which makes no sense if we assume it is only energy being transfered.

Even after the war within you can walk up to the operator on the ship while you are in a warframe and they are asleep until you interact with them to use the focus menu, further proving that it is the consciousness since, the Tenno have to be asleep to use the frames.
 
Paul Frank said:
They didn't control the frame there
The frame used its basic preservation instincts like Rhino in the codex

Every other time they used their conciousness, even Ordis comments at the end of the War Within asking "Where are you going" and saying "Don't leave me". Those words would make no sense if the operator were not either physically possessing the frames(which can easily be seen to be false) or transfering their conciousness into the frames and Ordis would know how transference works.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PquOK38zrvs

6:38 Hunhow comments how the warframes have "no self, no sense, and no death, just a metal puppet dancing on tenno strings" (which even more implies energy control rather than consciousness transfer).

10:53 Transferrence as described by the Lotus, is basically "The mind of the operator projected into a surrogate body" (Which further implies that it's just projected, not transferred, they project their movements into the warframes, and not literally have their minds inside the warframe).

About Umbra moving, no, not exactly. Umbra is living. He's the ONLY warframe that can move with or without void energy. The void energy just overrrides his control, he doesn't need it to move. When the void energy is out, he can freely move, but when it is in things change as the operator is controling his movements.

Ordis statement, makes no sense either way. Ordis talks to the warframe even during the quest (in mission), i mean when the warframe (you) are in mission the operator and ordis have long chats this was especially in the sacrifice quest. So if the operator is not in the ship how can he talk to ordis, or how can ordis talk to him? Moreover if Ordis can talk to us even when we're not inside the ship why did he worry about us "leaving him" during The War Within. It seems pretty clear that ordis just misread the operator's intention or the operator did a physical possession that one time (only for the quest then controled through void energy). The operator transferring his consciouness would not be the case as ordis can still talk to him either way (so it's 1 of the options i mentioned above).

Not exactly, they don't have to be asleep. They "had" to be asleep cus of the somatic link device, not anymore as they are active during missions and quests, if they were asleep most of their talking during quests and missions would be rendered null. Just the fact that we see the operator moving and talking to ordis while the warframe is in mission proves that the operator doesn't transfer his consciousness but rather just controls them using void avatars.
 
Btw @Paul

About the ability to go from X to Y if X dies, isn't that just an application of type 6 immortality? A weird one cus it's not based on soul or consciousness but more on choice, but it would still be a weird type of type 6 immortality, no?
 
Paul Frank said:
I guess
and yes it is based on consciousness
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I feel like this will be 1 of the most broken type 6's in the wiki. Immortalties are supposed to helps someone survive, but this is almost overkill. xD

You have yet to prove me wrong

Also i know you have problems with other stuff on the profile like deconstruction and stuff, but it's best if we take it slow and take care of it after I prove you wrong on consciousness we settle the consciousness so that it'll be a lil easier for everyone. xD
 
Firephoenixearl said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PquOK38zrvs

6:38 Hunhow comments how the warframes have "no self, no sense, and no death, just a metal puppet dancing on tenno strings" (which even more implies energy control rather than consciousness transfer).
Click to expand...
Hmm would that give type 5 immort btw? I feel like it's becoming overkill at this point so imma explain from 1 to 9.

1- They don't age

2- They don't suffer fatal damage in the literal sense, as they got stabbed in the heart and were still fine.

3- Regen from bleed out and just overall regen capabilities.

4- With Oro and Reviving

5- Since they are not alive, they are unbound by the meanings of life and death, as they don't live or die, they are objects.

6- Explained above the operator can just choose another one

7- Idk if it's possible to have both type 5 and 7, but if yes, then would this apply. I mean they are not living creatures.

8 and 9- from the operator

Does everything make sense? (Im only unsure on the type 5 and 7 here).
 
Warframes are not Pokemon. We absolutely should not have a composite profile, nor should we have a rule on Warframes switching during matches. When a Warframe is put into a fight, it's that Warframe against his or her opponent. Maybe the Operator can come into play, but the moment the Warframe in battle is gone, the battle ends, simple as that.
 
Yeah we decided no composite profile, but the warframe switching is literally no different from any type 6 in the wiki. Example Grimmon, if Grimmon dies, DS possesses his opponent. Even though Grimmon is no more, it'll be a win for grimmon. Same thing here, if one warframe is dead, another one can take over, even though it's not the same, it's the same void energy (from the operator) that goes from warframe to warframe. Just basic type 6 immort (or possession).
 
Again, that is not what happens in-verse. When a Warframe goes down in a mission, the Operator doesn't just send another Warframe out. You fail the mission. I'd argue that the Warframe has limited ressurection but even that's bordering game mechanics.
 
Sir Ovens said:
Again, that is not what happens in-verse. When a Warframe goes down in a mission, the Operator doesn't just send another Warframe out. You fail the mission. I'd argue that the Warframe has limited ressurection but even that's bordering game mechanics.
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But the operator does send another warframe eventually. Yes that mission fails (which is what i'd call game mechanics), but it doesn't mean the operator can't send another warframe. The Operator transfering void energy from warframe to warframe is basic stuff for him (just look at the sacrifice quest, or look at how many warframes Stalker has killed over the years but others just come out).

Resurrection is not game mechanics as it's done via the "oro" which is part of the lore. And the reason why only the stalker can permanently kill warframes (cus he can absorb oro).
 
Yeah, but within the context of the wiki, a batte is between the selected Warframe and his/her opponent. You can't just take out a Warframe and be like, "But wait, there's more".

The only way I see this working out is if we have battles using the Operator. It would make more sense that way as it would be like Ben 10 transforming into different aliens. Like, if I have a battle between one of Ben's many aliens and another combatant, I can't make the agrument that "Oh, Big Chill is defeated, so Ben turns into Rath and continues fighting." It just doesn't work that way. Likewise, if there is a battle between one Warframe and an enemy combatant, if the Warframe goes down, it's game over.
 
Not really. As i explained, you're misunderstanding why this is ok. It's just another application of type 6 immortality. Type 6 immortality allows one to go like "but wait there's more" on a daily basis, as it allows the opponent to change bodies, essentially getting a new and completely unrelated body (the example i gave with Grimmon, Iihiko Shishime and his type 6 etc, literally all type 6 immortalities work this way, this is no different).

6: Parasitic: The character is able to attain a sort of immortality by abandoning bodies whenever necessary to transfer their consciousness to another body, whether they are possessing someone else or switching to a backup body.

As it states it is normal for someone or something to abbandon a body and bring another completely unrelated body, pick up his body or switch to a backup body (like the operator does).

It's the basic definition of Type 6: Parasitic Immortality
 
Yeah, and my point is that if the match is not against the Operator specifically, this type of body switching shouldn't be allowed. The type 6 while fine and dandy, wouldn't work within the context of a vs match. There's a reason why the Warframes are seperated into their individual profiles and not under one profile called Warframes. If you fight one Warframe, you fight that one Warframe. Same thing goes with Pokemon, Ben 10, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc.
 
I think that Sir Ovens seems to make sense.
 
What about pokemon?

Ben 10 doesn't have this kind of case AFAIK.

Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't either, there is no type 6 included.

Well the "soul" of the warframe (which in this case doesn't exist, but is instead just a void avatar made of void energy) can switch bodies between different warframes (and even opponents). Void Avatar is still part of the warframe, and for all intents and purposes can be it's soul because the void avatar is what's making the warframe move and act. If other users of type 6 can change bodies and still continue to fight in their new bodies, why can't the warframes?
 
Lemme just clarify what I meant by my suggestion

This would apply to the operator's profile not the frames

The op gets to designate a frame for the operator to start in or just say it's the actual operator

If the frame op designated dies the operator gets to send out a different frame

This suggestion only kinda works because the fight is against the operator and not the frames, and in this case they are using the frames like avatars although it's kinda stretching it still I admit
 
I feel like it's fair to put it on any warframe, but if everyone agrees it's only for the operator then ok.

But shouldn't we add abilities to the operator's profile if that's the case?
 
I think it should be done like this.

First, no changes for Warframes to be able to change them, just for The Operator. Ex. Excalibur vs Ichigo - if the Excalibur is defeated then that's its, no more Excaliburs or The Operator sending another one to continue the fight.

If The Operator fights then it's possible and okay for him to have more Warframes that can fight for him. He's like Ben 10 here - as having in a way more forms. Ex. The Operator vs Reinhard - if The Operator starts in a frame (ex.Limbo) and the Warframe is defeated then the fight still continues as he can use more frames. The only way to defeat him should either be directly his death or an attack that ignores all and focus him or all his Warframes being defeated and him being the last one standing (so still having to defeat him in the end). Short fight directly kills him, long fight defeat each Warframe then The Operator.

Second, The Operator should be able to changes his Warframe in the middle of the fight as the quitting or aborting the mission is game mechanic. This makes a very hard fight for his opponent as it will be a very long list of abilities to fight and try to counter/defend them.

Third, when a fight is made using The Operator, it should always include the Warframe that he will start at the beginning of it.

Fourth, The Operator should not be used casually in a fight as he can change his whole set of abilities more than 20 times, plus his own set that can vary depending on his school of focus. Also, it's again hard to choose standard equipment as there are 500 of weapons, so he should have them all because normally he would have them all in his Landing Craft (Orbiter) and can be deployed with a Warframe.

Conclusion, he would have all Warframes and weapons as they can be deployed at the same time. The only way to defeat him is to attack him directly or defeat each Warframe then him and don't make this a casual debate as it will be one of the longest possible and hard to predict thanks to its enormous list of ability and weapons at its disposal.
 
What do the rest of you think about this?
 
I agree with Zara. We should only allow Warframe switching if the Operator is the one being used in vs threads.
 
Paul Frank said:
Lemme just clarify what I meant by my suggestion
This would apply to the operator's profile not the frames

The op gets to designate a frame for the operator to start in or just say it's the actual operator
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Ok so Paul thinks the same, me and sir agree with this, that's everyone.

Hbu Ant?
 
I suppose that it seems fine then, but it would probably be best to include a footnote that it is very impractical to use the character in versus threads.
 
Hmm include a note? I mean it's just that the character is strong or better put extremely hard to deal with, rather than impractical. It's no different from terribly haxed characters in our wiki. I mean i don't mind adding it (im working on the sandbox for the character, i will post it here for evaluation once it's done), but it feels as redundant as having a footnote on every smurf like "The character has beyond 3D level hax, so use with caution in vs debates", i mean yes that's sth you clearly get from the profile alone, if you put the operator against someone who cannot deal with his arsenal then it'll just be a stomp and the match will be closed.
 
Well, any opponent having to fight through all of the Warframes one-by-one seems impractical.
 
Yes, it's hard to fight all of them (not to mention that warframes can have clones, primes, other versions etc, so it'll be even harder considering that there can be like more than a hundred versions), but yes, that is just part of the character's arsenal. Not gonna say it's not hard to deal with or hard to fight such character, but i feel like the rule is a bit unnecessary.

If the opponent can deal with the Operator's HUGE arsenal, then the fight is fair and it can go on.

If the opponent either cannot deal with or due to the huge advantages has a really small chance at victory the fight will be deemed a stomp either for lack of win conditions or too unfair for the other party.

Heaven Ascension DIO vs Limbo would be a good example of this. The fight was deemed fair at first cus DIO had a win condition with his 2-A hax, however after the match was added Azzy removed it because he said this "HA DIO having to kill a character who he has absolutely no knowledge about while Limbo can just come back and while having tactical advantages is too unfair for DIO" and classified it as a "stomp". Because while DIO had a wincondition the fight was still too unfair due to the huge arsenal and mechanics of the warframe.

Again i have nothing against adding the rule, but iirc there is no other case in the wiki like that and i feel like it give people a "The Operator is banned from vs debates" kind of vibe.
 
Okay. I suppose that you can edit the page now then.
 
Sir Ovens said:
Wait, did you add every Warframe ability?
Click to expand...
Yes, he can use all warframes. Do you know how annoying it'd be if i gave links to like 39 more hax walls, not to mention that there are warframes who still don't have a profile.
 
Good point, perhaps a link to the list of Warframes. If we have been tagging the frames under the tag Warframes, then there should be a link page we can post on the profile itself.

Essentially we just have a note stating "For a full list of Warframes the Operator can use, click here"
 
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