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OP states they start at a mostly empty space with only furniture and the like as cover
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Wait, how has this match not been done already? (John Wick vs Agent 47)
- Thread starter Crabwhale
- Start date
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I know that John Wick can do impressive stuff like that too. My goal was to show what league Agent 47's skills are. He does this in many different circumstances and locations around Earth, using a variety of skills, so along with other factors that we'll discuss below, I'm not convinced to change my vote.
You wrote that Agent 47's tactics are stealth instead of combat, so I was showing you that he can fight directly too. I wasn't claiming that John Wick couldn't do this kind of stuff too.
I think I see what you mean. I already find John Wick more skilled at acrobatics anyway, as I wrote, but I don't think the skill difference between John Wick and Agent 47 is large. Imagine Agent 47 on a train that he doesn't need to be stealthy on, during safe weather, while he's actually putting effort into fighting someone. He could most likely do something more impressive than what he showed in the video I linked. Based on what we do know, Agent 47 has enough other skills to circumvent his disadvantages. For example, sure John Wick has much better acrobatics, but in a battle merely in a room with furniture, Agent 47's acrobatics are good enough so that the gap wouldn't matter very much at all, and his other skills such as his extraordinary aim and reaction speed should also be able to help him greatly in the situation. Like I explained earlier, in a bad situation for Agent 47, he could escape and find a way to kill John Wick from very far away, using Instinct to know where he is.
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Agent 47 is just too broken
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- Thread starter
- #84
Having watched John Wick Chapter 3 now, I can safely say that this isn't the most viable tactic since John Wick not only has responded to very highly trained assassins who can pull that off (literally the "Batman disappear in one blink" trick), but he can also do it himself.
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I mean so can 47, dude's nuts
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- Thread starter
- #86
I'm not saying 47 can't, I'm just saying the stealth gap isn't so inconceivably big as people are making it out to be. John pulls shit similar to 47 all the time, it's just that his specialty in the movies is blind mob fights and sheer kill ratio.
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Show me an instance where Wick escapes from a facility that has trained guards flooding through a pretty narrow hallway without being noticed by any of them
Wick fights, he doesn't hide like a biatch
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Congratulations, you've said exactly what I said in dumber wording. It still doesn't change the fact that their degree of stealth is similar enough where I don't wager it's a wincon.
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Well, for my surprise, i'm siding with Wick due to @LordGinSama reasons
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Ask the entire army of security guards he ninja'd around in a narrow ass hallway
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John has done the same and has countered people who can do the same.
Dragon's breath bypasses any method of escape due to AoE, flames which light up the area and the fact that John can see while under fire and in the literal darkness. Darkness to the point where normally you'd need to see via high tech High Table night vision goggles.
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I'd like to see those specific scenes. And I want the guards all coming at once, not a few at a time.
47 can straight up see through walls to identify targets himself. I'm pretty sure this has been a thing since the very, VERY first Hitman
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Has he done that while they are shooting?
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That'd defeat the purpose of stealthing wouldn't it? Should note that enemies in Hitman 2(I think) only shoot when they see you
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Then it's useless, John chases and shoots
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Watch John Wick 3. Paramount are a bunch of twats and copy right everything so unfortunately I'm not willing to stick my neck out to post clips of the movie. I do however have the movie bought digitally and if you wanna watch it yourself just hit me up and I'll let ya watch it on my account so you can see for yourself.
But in the third movie they basically send bus fulls of High Table Soliders into a single building to kill Wick. But then he hits them with the "In Russia we kill you!" treatment.
That'll help him for sure I don't recall saying it wouldn't
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You act like 47 doesn't also have guns he's a damn good shot with. Like, he's not John Wick levels of insane gunplay, but he doesn't have to be in this case, in a fight where both combatants can end the fight in one good hit, chasing the dude who's known for setting up traps to kill will go about as well as breaking into John Wick's house and killing his dog and stealing his car. Oh and 47 can glance over and see Wick coming and just perfectly time his bullet to insta-gib him. He can see targets through walls like I said.
I'll take your word for it(mostly because i dont want to meddle in someone else's accounts), seems comparable if not different since Wick killed them while 47 literally did not engage, but TBH i could bring up being somewhat comparable to Lucas Grey and I'm pretty sure that guy's fame to claim in terms of Stealth is literally break into secret world government safe with more defenses then every capital city on earth today combined, into a vault that only has 3 keys and requires two of them to open to steal information. Like, take all of the guards of the assassin league or whatever it is from John Wick, put them all into one place, put just as many cameras down, and have literally nothing touched except the vault itself, and you got what Lucas did.
It's debatably comparable though, since 47 did much better when a bunch of agents found them then Lucas did...
Lucas Grey ******* died lol
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That one unfortunately doesn't show the trucks full of High Table grunts raiding the building. With of course because why not, ninjas.
And they were gonna continue sending more trucks of men into the hotel lol.
Recon1511
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No idea why is stealth being brought up when it's nigh irrelevant in a 1v1 fight in an empty room with some furniture with both being keenly aware of the other...
Like if 47 had a device that made him go invisible or something I would get it but it's not even that lol
Imma vote Juan Wick for now
Like if 47 had a device that made him go invisible or something I would get it but it's not even that lol
Imma vote Juan Wick for now
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Agent 47 has been to the battle's location before while I haven't seen John Wick be there, meaning unless I'm informed otherwise, I still make the good point that Agent 47 would know his way around already while John Wick wouldn't. If you get caught in Hitman, pretty much the only strategy is to make Agent 47 hide when the guards aren't looking at him, wait until they leave, and then get him to find a new disguise or keep him extra stealthy for the rest of the mission. John Wick is both a worthy opponent and Agent 47's target in this battle, which both of them know as soon as the battle starts, so Agent 47 would probably escape, use his knowledge of the location and Instinct to perfectly avoid encountering John Wick again until he finds the perfect position to snipe him from far. I think this because Agent 47 much prefers being untraceable, so he would prioritize this kind of method of fighting back, instead of engaging in a direct and noisy hand-to-hand combat scenario in a very famous location.
VS battles aren't exclusively about feats and stats of characters, it's also about what they would do in character. So, if John Wick is against a character with the same kind of capabilities as him in this specific scenario where the characters start in the way that they do, what would he do specifically? Would he try chasing Agent 47 to make sure he doesn't lose sight of him? It seems like the kind of thing he would do. If that's the case, then movement speed is a factor.
With speed equalized, in accordance to the Speed Equalization Rules and Assumptions, Agent 47's supersonic+ combat speed gets reduced to John Wick's superhuman combat speed, and Agent 47's other speed stats get reduced by the same degree, making his superhuman movement speed reduced to below average to such a degree that he is practically immobile, which is against the rules, as "Any speed equalized match, in which a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles.", so speed would have to be not equalized for movement speed, in which case Agent 47 is faster, as Agent 47 has superhuman speed while John Wick has at least athletic human speed.
VS battles aren't exclusively about feats and stats of characters, it's also about what they would do in character. So, if John Wick is against a character with the same kind of capabilities as him in this specific scenario where the characters start in the way that they do, what would he do specifically? Would he try chasing Agent 47 to make sure he doesn't lose sight of him? It seems like the kind of thing he would do. If that's the case, then movement speed is a factor.
With speed equalized, in accordance to the Speed Equalization Rules and Assumptions, Agent 47's supersonic+ combat speed gets reduced to John Wick's superhuman combat speed, and Agent 47's other speed stats get reduced by the same degree, making his superhuman movement speed reduced to below average to such a degree that he is practically immobile, which is against the rules, as "Any speed equalized match, in which a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles.", so speed would have to be not equalized for movement speed, in which case Agent 47 is faster, as Agent 47 has superhuman speed while John Wick has at least athletic human speed.
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Can he set those traps while someone is literally shooting at him? Also Wick has a bulletproof suit, 47 needs a headshot for a proper kill
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It gets worse with John Wick 4 where the same shit happens but on steroids.
Also John can use his coat to deflect headshots. Honestly Wick should probably have Analytical Prediction because the amount of "aim dodging." he does is ridiculous. That or he's actually dodging bullets, which ya know the blind dude from chapter 4 has done.
Also John can use his coat to deflect headshots. Honestly Wick should probably have Analytical Prediction because the amount of "aim dodging." he does is ridiculous. That or he's actually dodging bullets, which ya know the blind dude from chapter 4 has done.
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Dragon's Breath AoE should take care of any attempts of escape from 47. If he tries to leave he's leaving himself open to a weapon with very good AoE, that can one shot him while also casting light to show any possible hiding areas.
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John Paul Jones FRA
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John should be supersonic lol. There blatant bullet timing feats on chapter 4
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Yeah then we have dudes reacting to sneak attacks in the dark from bows and arrows. And on some anime shit, dude CAUGHT the arrow in his hand.
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I disagree, i don't think John Wick should be supersonic, in fact, i don't recall any bullet timing feats on chapter 4 at all, well in trailer it kinda looked like Caine was deflecting bullets with his sword, but in the actual movie it's clear that he was just wildly swinging his sword at Wick and failing to hit him
There's also the fact that legit bullet dodging feats here in this wiki sometimes are calculated to be just subsonic or even superhuman. Not to mention that some verses have a guy absolutely dodging bullets but have a in verse explanation that they are just very good aim dodgers. Here's two cinematic examples.
So in short, no, i don't belive Mr Wick is supersonic, but i do believe he definitively should be subsonic tho, not only due to scaling to the high table assassin that blocked a arrow but also due to the fact that there's times that he appears to be FTE, and too fast for a human to properly react.
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Your heavily ignoring context here. They were not allowed to "dodge." at all. This was an old fashion duel, I.E you stand in front of one another shooting till one of the two falls. There is no dodging involved.
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This could be a reason but the movie never make it explicit does it? i mean i don't remember anyone saying they are not allowed to dodge, but it could be, since they are very good aim dodgers and still didn't try to aim dodge each other. Still i don't think this affects my overall argument anyway, but fair point.
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Caine was still moving with enough speed to block the bullets. Also I thought his enhance sense was what allowed him to react?
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Was Caine moving fast? sure, was him blocking bullets? No, rewatch the scene (slowmotion) and you'll not gonna see anything that indicates this notion, not even a single spark in his sword, you can also cleary see that Caine only begins to swing his sword after Wick stopped shooting, in fact you can cleary see where the bullet hit. If Caine did something like this, then yes, he would be a bullet timer, but he didn't.
Caine enhaced senses are somewhat inconsistent tbh, sometimes he needs doorbell sensors to know his enemies positions, other times he guns down a bunch of men without those, there's times where he can't sense Wick literally in front of him, and other times that he's able to defend sword strikes from the same. But for a blind guy block bullets (which Caine didn't do) in mid air he would have to know to the trajectory of the bullets.
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Que John Wick "aim dodging." a plethora of bullets in the dark in both 3 and 4.
He literally defends himself from headshots from automatic gunfire by covering his head with his bullet proof jacket.
He literally defends himself from headshots from automatic gunfire by covering his head with his bullet proof jacket.
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it explicitly does. Thats what they meant by a "duel." they were given a very strict set of rules by the High Table. They work on old rules, given that the organization is old as ****.
Yeah read above. If they could dodge Wick and Cane would have been dodging, also keep in mind the whole duel was so John could trick the Marquis.
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Reminder that this isn't a content revision thread, it's a VS thread. If John Wick's stats are inaccurate, then someone should make a content revision thread for the matter to be discussed there, so then this VS thread can resume.
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It's not even CRT talk lol we're just discussing the movie.
