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Very Minor Sans Changes

Toriel told him to protect human children that fell down in general iirc. And in that case, he should be telling everyone that he cares about, which is everyone in that room, who he should care about more than Friak, that there's the potential for a murderer on he loose.
 
Weren't Toriel's words something along the lines of "if a human child ever comes through here", though? Because Frisk is definitely the first human Sans has ever seen (at least in the current timeline), and he definitely assumes they're who Toriel was referring to.

Pretty sure he'd only tell Frisk due to his promise to Toriel, and the fact it's really not much work. After all, he won't stop you from killing his brother, as he's just come to expect the world being reset, and only steps in when he realizes everyone's in danger. By this point (since his genocide dialogue implies he's been studying what's happening for at least a little while), he probably realizes Frisk has some special Determination properties (since it turns out he knows Alphys and she's the one who researched it in the first place), meaning he's by this point at least subtley trying to push them towards a more "virtuous" path. He might also realize Flowey no longer has the ability to reset, making it a prime opportunity for either of them to try and get rid of him should they get the chance.

Though of course, all of this is more semantics, and I think as for the main topic at hand, it's probably better to discuss Sans on-screen "time jumps".
 
I was about to say the same thing. About semantics. Anyway, I thought the internal things meant nothing? That check was what's important. So, imo it's just a name. Like, Hyperspace Fury doesn't make Hoopa tier 1.
 
The fact that when the skips occur during Sans' battle, entirely different attacks are set up around you, despite the fact the battle never leaves the Judgment Hall and there is not nearly enough time in the half a second breaks for Sans to create these attacks/set up the formations. It's also shown to be clearly different than when he just teleports you, as in those cases, his eye simply flashes and you see your SOUL teleport, whereas with these "jump cuts", literally everything skips around. Sans' attacks, you, the battle box...hell, even the music is skipped along with it.

As I said above, he definitely has the ability to just teleport you, but these are clearly portrayed differently.
 
Ok, I'd like to post my thoughts on this real quick. So the thing is, what Sans is doing in Grillby's is obviously not dramatic effect. It couldn't be clearer that he "pauses" things so that the other patrons couldn't hear what he was saying, and then said he forgot what he was going to say to write it off so that no one would be suspicious.

But I'm also not sure this is a timestop. Remember Occam's Razor. Whatever conclusion requires the least assumptions is most likely correct. So why assume that Sans is using some power he barely ever shows, when the exact same scene could be explained with a power he obviously does have.

Remember, you and Sans are, by far, the fastest two beings in the Underground. What if Sans literally just started moving and talking so fast that no one but you could hear him? Remember, you and him are the only two characters in the game who dodge anything, and you never once fail to hit an opponent. It makes sense that he would literally just "freeze time" by moving faster.

This also explains his "timeskip" attacks in his fight. He could simply be temporarily exerting himself to move faster than he usually can, setting you up for brutal attacks.

...

Then again though, the sound effect is called "Timeskip." Just offering another explanation.
 
Teleportation doesn't have to leave the fighting area. It's more likely he teleported his attacks. Another thing is that other characters shouldn't logically have the time to set up their attacks. Prime example is a pissed base Undyne.
 
Undyne throws attacks and you see them appear on screen, though. Sans' literally materialize out of nowhere, and as I already said, we see what it looks like when he teleports things regularly, and it's nothing like that. It's quite literally just like a "blink" as opposed to everything cutting out.
 
Thing is, that could be a number of things. It could be as major as time stop. I'm not doubting that at all. However, it could be as little as a blinding attack. Timestop just seems too extreme. If it were Timestop, the blink wouldn't exist. The next attack would be there. It's not a blip in reality. The next seconds are when Sans would make the next second.
 
If it were a blinding attack, there would be no reason for the music to stop, too. You don't hear with your eyes. It would also mean he's directly blinding the Player as well as Frisk, which would point to him having some kind of weird multi-universal range and higher-dimensional manipulation, which makes less sense than him just briefly jumping in time. The blink exists to show you there's something missing, and you have to remember that only you, the Player, a powerful outside force, is seeing the blink. You are not connected to the world's time. Hence why literally everything, including your menu, vanishes temporarily.

After all, as I said before, we see what it's like when Sans uses basic teleportation on you, and there is no cut to black or specific sound effect. We also know that when he uses it on himself, there is no sound effect or cut to black, which would definitely suggest the "time jumps" are something else.
 
This would be a pretty big upgrade for Sans, but I find it hard to explain why the music pauses during the jump cuts in Sans' fight without some form of time manipulation.
 
Maybe a short summary of what I'm saying will get this going.

  • Sans' "jumpcuts" are shown to be very, very clearly different from his regular teleportation, and seem to cause everything to skip forward (the surroundings, Sans himself, the music, etc.). We know this isn't what his normal teleportation looks like because we see him do that both to himself, Chara, and an object (his room key). There is pretty much zero chance the two are the same power.
  • Internal files seem to suggest the power to be time manipulation.
  • While it could be debated, Sans' dialogue in Grillby's suggests the aside was something that happened in-universe, which would be why everything around them stopped, and why he then attempts to play it off.
  • Sans is incredibly knowledgeable on time travel, the space-time continuum and what's happening to it, and already possesses powers related to spatial manipulation. Him having time manipulation is far from something that would be out of the ordinary for him.
Therefore, he should likely have "Time Stop/Time Manipulation" added to his powers and abilities.
 
Shouldn't he logically dtomp Frisk then? Because Karmic Retribution + Timestop should give you no time to react. Especially adding on to that one shot kill move he uses which he has to trick you in order to use. Why didnt he just do that beforehand with timestop? Or is it just not applicable in combat?

Not to mention... it could be just the game change. It could just be a literal portal creation and he ends up there. It's more believable to see him have space manipulation due to that otherwise
 
Sans was really exhausted after the fight agaisnt Chara

Probably Sans can Stop Time while "relaxed", but only "Time Leap" during a fight
 
The best I see him having is time acceleration which would mean his base speed is lower which would make sense with his stats.

What do you mean Saikou?

Well if that was the case then it really changes nothing. If he was relaxed then why didn't he use it from the start? Sure his brother was dead but that would mean his emotions could get ahold of him. That basically means timestop is not applicable if he gets serious/pissed and he only fights if he's that.
 
There is nothing physically stopping Sans from teleporting Fisk into a blaster repeatedly. PIS or Gameplay Mechanics most likely stops this from being a stomp.
 
Making a spatial portal at which you end up at another point in time would still be time manipulation. Also, remember how, if we take him as doing it during the scene at Grillby's, he didn't struggle to hold it while having a conversation? However, when he fights Chara, it is only done in short intervals, and the pretty obvious answer is Determination. Determination allowed Frisk to transcend time, prevent themselves from being erased from existence, etc. It seems pretty clear that Chara, who going by Sans dialogue was insanely Determined to kill him, wouldn't be very vulnerable to Sans' time stops, hence why he never performs any long stops, but instead several quick stops in rapid succession.

I would be more hesitant about stating this as an obvious solution if it wasn't for the fact that Determination was very clearly shown to overcome vastly more powerful space-time manipulation. Stopping time is nothing.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
There is nothing physically stopping Sans from teleporting Fisk into a blaster repeatedly.
Click to expand...
This is actually true, as in the same battle he shows the ability to teleport them against their will during the battle of attrition.
 
I don't really have any complaints with this, I guess, so I agree.
 
Wasn't the only time he used his teleportation was when he was holding hands with Frisk? And didn't he have very high speed during the genocide route? You can argue that Frisk can move faster than those.

On mobile right now but when did this happen again? The time portal thing? I don't recall that ever happening. The music stop above was probably just there for drama otherwise imagine the vast number of franchises who could potentially have timestop with that argument.

The issue here is we're building up on theories and assumptions on those. It's likely that Sans has awareness of timelines and can fast forward time but if has time stop... He might be dumber than Papyrus if he never chose it to use it against anyone else.

Oh right. Determination that transcends all. Forgot about that. But how do we figure that's the cause? I mean it might be but at the same this was the Frisk who still couldn't revive himself from death. But frankly I just don't want to imagine being an idiot and nothing really 'grand' shows Frisk breaking through the existence of time stops. Hell him locking someone on a turn was much more effective than whatever he had.

Well even if I voice out why it won't do anything won't it?
 
CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
Wasn't the only time he used his teleportation was when he was holding hands with Frisk? And didn't he have very high speed during the genocide route? You can argue that Frisk can move faster than those.
On mobile right now but when did this happen again? The time portal thing? I don't recall that ever happening. The music stop above was probably just there for drama otherwise imagine the vast number of franchises who could potentially have timestop with that argument.

The issue here is we're building up on theories and assumptions on those. It's likely that Sans has awareness of timelines and can fast forward time but if has time stop... He might be dumber than Papyrus if he never chose it to use it against anyone else.

Oh right. Determination that transcends all. Forgot about that. But how do we figure that's the cause? I mean it might be but at the same this was the Frisk who still couldn't revive himself from death. But frankly I just don't want to imagine being an idiot and nothing really 'grand' shows Frisk breaking through the existence of time stops. Hell him locking someone on a turn was much more effective than whatever he had.

Well even if I voice out why it won't do anything won't it?
Click to expand...
1. Nope. I've already posted multiple links. He uses it on himself in Snowdin forest, on you during the actual battle (at the end), and on an object after you prove you're actually a time traveller.

2. You suggested a portal as opposed to time stop. I said even if it was a portal that took him to a point later in time, that is still time manipulation.

3. Haha, what? The argument isn't that solely the music skips, therefore he has timestop. It's that he skips literally EVERYTHING, music included.

4. Sans' whole deal is that he doesn't care. Half of the dialogue in the battle is about how he spends his time not caring since he's just given up. He's deeply depressed (despite hiding it) and views his life as meaningless. He would have zero reason whatsoever to use this power on anyone else. Hell, even fighting Chara, he doesn't get serious until half way through the battle.

5. There is no point at which Frisk cannot revive themself from death if there is nobody with higher Determination. I have no idea what you're talking about. Frisk literally transcended time and space after Flowey destroyed the world, did the same thing again when Asriel wiped the timeline, and stopped themself from being erased from existence. How is any of this less impressive than shortening the duration of basic time stop?

6. Sans locked them in place via game mechanics. He literally refused to take his turn. He was exploiting the rules of the world to his own advantage.

7. Please don't play the "why say anything because it won't change anything" card. It's incredibly annoying, and implies nobody is listening to you, which is why what you suggest isn't the route we go with, instead of the reality that you have to actually refute the reasons given for this ability properly. Presenting an argument does not automatically mean you're right, and if someone actually argues it, it does not mean they're ignoring your points, but instead addressing them.
 
Yeah just saw the above posts. Reading through them all the moment I finished. Nvm. Disregard my post. I take it back. Does this mean he has accel and time stop
 
It's fine.

Don't know. "Limited time stop" is probably the safest way to go, as ignoring more complicated things, it's pretty clearly what he does against Chara, and explains why he doesn't just keep it up constantly without having to discuss Determination and such. Granted, we don't know the exact limit, but judging by what he can do in the time frame, we can safely assume it to be at least a few seconds, and can be done in rapid succession.
 
Just saw your post. Well 7 is more of an observation actually. Some people can just deny certain things due to well bias. In any case not denying anything here anymore. So it has a fast cooldown and fast use then? Would that mean his spatial manipulation of teleporting others be basically time manipulation? Few seconds of timestop would be still useful.
 
Could be, though some just seems to be straight Spatial Manipulation/teleportation, like him causing a key to materialize on your keychain. Probably best to list them alongside Time Manipulation.
 
Alright, so looking back through the post, it seems

Saikou, Steve (I think), Chaos, Aiden, Majin, Prom, and now COB are in agreement with the changes

DT and Cal are in disagreement with the changes, though I don't know if DT has seen any of the newer stuff posted.

Any other opinions?
 
Actually the only part I don't really support is the Combination of Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation. I feel like only one could exist. Rest seems to makes sense. But then again Donttalk's arguments and points could change the argument so I'll wait a bit for anymore of his responses.
 
CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
Actually the only part I don't really support is the Combination of Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation. I feel like only one can exist.
Click to expand...
It's actually the opposite. Time and Space are deeply interwoven hence, at times, manipulating one also manipulates the other.
 
I support the aside being timestop from what we've seen. As for the reason he does it in the bar I believe he did not want Flowey to know Sans knew about him, probably didnt care too much about the other people in the bar hearing. Not sure if his inability to simply impale chara while time was stopped was due to determination or just a limitation on affecting others while it's active.
 
Didn't Papyrus complain about him "pranking him across space and time again"? Highly doubt that counts, though.

But yes. I'm definitely in favor of these changes.
 
Audiovisual effects used and naming of game files can add support to theories that already are creditable on their own, but this argument relies too much on them in my opinion.

So all in all my opinion will probably remain that the whole thing is too uncertain.


"It would seem odd to the rest of the patrons had Sans said that to Frisk and then just left, so he likely says this to not arrouse suspicion. Otherwise, as I said, the line serves no purpose and doesn't make sense if you assume everything else stopping to only be a visual effect."

"I want task ask you something. Welp, that was a long break."

If you are argueing that he doesn't want it to appear strange that continuation already makes it appear strange. He would have to say it directly in the next sentence to be an unsuspicious continuation. Especially since he mentions that he was gonna say something, not ask something.

Oh, and "By the way... ...I was gonna say something, but I forgot" Could also be read as the he wanted to begin a sentence with "By the way", but then decided not to say it.

There are various things that this could be, for example his relationship to Toriel and the promise to protect humans. Or maybe suspicions about flowey like some theories state.

But generally even reading it differently the scene actually still fits as long as we assume that he originally wanted to talk about something with firsk but decided against it in the end.
 
DontTalk said:
snip
Click to expand...
Most of this seems to be related to the Grillby's scene, which is fine, but could you address the "jumpcuts"? Because at this point, most people are seeing short time stop as the most likely explanation for the power due to this as opposed to the Grillby's thing, and arguments for or against changes should most likely relate to that.
 
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