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Vegeta SSBE (When it was first Aquired) vs SSJ2 Kefla

SSBKK and SSBE seems to be pretty equal. Seeing as how SS1 Kefla ktfo Goku and was stated at SS2 to be able to one-shot UIO Goku. It seems to me she should be able to beat SSBE Vegeta. He also would not have the hax evasion Goku did to keep from getting hit but Vegeta seemed to get stronger as the tournament went on so it hard to say. I think she just overpowers him.
 
SSBE Vegeta is equivalent to Post-UIO2 SSBKKX20 Goku. That would be akin to someone who is stronger than UIO1 Goku.

Kefla's only real feat of note is kicking a SSBKK Goku into Base but this was a heavily exhausted Goku who had just been double-teamed not long after being crushed by Jiren. You have statements like Kefla's energy rivaling the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb (which isn't even impressive when you realize that UIO1 Goku had to surpass it to survive) and we can assume SS2 Kefla is at least twice as strong as SS1. Vados even states that she is 'uncertain' if Kefla would have been able to defeat Goku's Blue Form if he were at peak condition.

If we sincerely look at how she compared:

  • SSG Goku could defend against Base Kefla's attacks even when it's constantly stated that he is exhausted from Jiren
  • SSB Goku is so dangerous that Vados questions if Kefla can handle him, even as a Super Saiyan, with Champa stating that Goku is still heavily exhausted from Jiren. We even see the peanut gallery be shocked that Goku can even go Blue
  • SSB Goku matches SS Kefla's movements completely and is incredibly confident. When he uses Kaio-Ken it's even stated that he is going too far due to his stamina.
  • The unspecified SSBKK Goku can injure Kefla (even, again, when it's constantly stated that he is fighting with low stamina and the Kaio-Ken will strain him considerably) with Beerus stating after Kefla is injured that Goku only has the stamina for one more attack
  • SS Kefla knocks Goku out of Blue after Goku expends too much stamina with SSB and KK
So based on all of the above...Exhausted SSG Goku can defend against Kefla. An SSB Goku is so dangerous that Vados is concerned over Kefla fighting him in SS with Champa stating that Goku is low on stamina from Jiren and the peanut gallery shocked that Goku can even go Blue. An SSBKK Goku can injure SS Kefla even when Beerus says directly afterwards that Goku can only use one more attack with his low stamina.

You might want to point at SS2 Kefla and go "Well Kefla can fight UIO2 Goku!" but that's hilariously wrong.

  • Goku powers up but abruptly stops and tells Kefla "This is enough." which implies he could have powered up far more
  • Goku dodges all of Kefla's attacks
  • Goku blitzes Kefla several times
  • He ragdolls her consistently
You might then go "Well Goku couldn't hurt Kefla" but people forget...

  • Whis blatantly states that while Kefla has impressive 'vigor' the reason why Goku can't hurt her is due to the incomplete nature of UIO making his attacks weak to compensate for speed
  • Whis states that Goku can only use one more attack before his stamina runs out in UIO
  • Kefla then goes for a last ditch effort attack that is said to be expending all of her energy with Roshi claiming that Goku would die if he is hit by it (this is her best feat and chance)
Overall when you look at the scaling we can evidently see that...

  • A. Heavily exhausted SSG Goku can handle Base Kefla's attacks
  • B. Heavily exhausted SSB Goku can match SS Kefla's blows with Vados concerned and Champa stating Goku is too exhausted from Jiren
  • C. Kefla knocked out heavily exhausted SSBKK Goku literally right after he uses his last possible attack
  • D. Kefla was inferior in every way to UIO Goku with it being explicitly stated that the only reason she can fight him is due to UIO having terrible offensive power
With EVERYTHING I have stated (after rewatching the two episodes) I can confidently state that if Goku was at peak health he would have defeated SS2 Kefla in SSBKK. Goku became much stronger after breaking his limits against her (which Vegeta scales to) and SSBE is 20x that of a considerably stronger Goku to the one that fought Kefla.

Overall a stronger Blue multiplied by 20 at peak condition against the girl who was injured and matched in movements by a heavily exhausted and considerably weaker Blue who only went an unspecified KK briefly? Yeah, no.

I vote for Vegeta.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
If we sincerely look at how she compared:

  • 1) SSG Goku could defend against Base Kefla's attacks even when it's constantly stated that he is exhausted from Jiren
  • 2) SSB Goku is so dangerous that Vados questions if Kefla can handle him, even as a Super Saiyan, with Champa stating that Goku is still heavily exhausted from Jiren. We even see the peanut gallery be shocked that Goku can even go Blue
  • 3) SSB Goku matches SS Kefla's movements completely and is incredibly confident. When he uses Kaio-Ken it's even stated that he is going too far due to his stamina.
  • 4) The unspecified SSBKK Goku can injure Kefla (even, again, when it's constantly stated that he is fighting with low stamina and the Kaio-Ken will strain him considerably) with Beerus stating after Kefla is injured that Goku only has the stamina for one more attack
  • 5) SS Kefla knocks Goku out of Blue after Goku expends too much stamina with SSB and KK
6) So based on all of the above...Exhausted SSG Goku can defend against Kefla. An SSB Goku is so dangerous that Vados is concerned over Kefla fighting him in SS with Champa stating that Goku is low on stamina from Jiren and the peanut gallery shocked that Goku can even go Blue. An SSBKK Goku can injure SS Kefla even when Beerus says directly afterwards that Goku can only use one more attack with his low stamina.

You might want to point at SS2 Kefla and go "Well Kefla can fight UIO2 Goku!" but that's hilariously wrong.

  • 7) Goku powers up but abruptly stops and tells Kefla "This is enough." which implies he could have powered up far more
  • 8) Goku dodges all of Kefla's attacks
  • 9) Goku blitzes Kefla several times
  • 10) He ragdolls her consistently
You might then go "Well Goku couldn't hurt Kefla" but people forget...

  • 11) Whis blatantly states that while Kefla has impressive 'vigor' the reason why Goku can't hurt her is due to the incomplete nature of UIO making his attacks weak to compensate for speed
  • 12) Whis states that Goku can only use one more attack before his stamina runs out in UIO
  • 13) Kefla then goes for a last ditch effort attack that is said to be expending all of her energy with Roshi claiming that Goku would die if he is hit by it (this is her best feat and chance)
14) Overall when you look at the scaling we can evidently see that...

  • A. Heavily exhausted SSG Goku can handle Base Kefla's attacks
  • B. Heavily exhausted SSB Goku can match SS Kefla's blows with Vados concerned and Champa stating Goku is too exhausted from Jiren
  • C. Kefla knocked out heavily exhausted SSBKK Goku literally right after he uses his last possible attack
  • 15) D. Kefla was inferior in every way to UIO Goku with it being explicitly stated that the only reason she can fight him is due to UIO having terrible offensive power
16) With EVERYTHING I have stated (after rewatching the two episodes) I can confidently state that if Goku was at peak health he would have defeated SS2 Kefla in SSBKK. Goku became much stronger after breaking his limits against her (which Vegeta scales to) and SSBE is 20x that of a considerably stronger Goku to the one that fought Kefla.

17) Overall a stronger Blue multiplied by 20 at peak condition against the girl who was injured and matched in movements by a heavily exhausted and considerably weaker Blue who only went an unspecified KK briefly? Yeah, no.
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1) Except when he got punched in the face, sent flying into a big rock, punched in the gut, knee'd in the face, and thrown into another big rock. He didn't defend that much.

2) Vados said she should be careful. Champa says her power was much higher than he thought it would be and was positive she could beat him.

3) SSB and SS Kefla did nothing to each other. With KK he landed a hit to her arm that she said made it numb. She follows up with a hit that knocks Goku out cold.

4) Which is why he goes for broke. He hurt her arm in a single attack. Her attack knocked him out cold. Not the same kind of power.

5) She knocks him out because she landed a clean hit to the back of his head. He reverted to base because he was unconcious, not out of stamina.

6) Nope, see 1-5.

7) And she tells him that she would just power up even more. Implying she was and could go above him even further. He powers up later on and she simply asks him if he's done without a care in the world.

8) Speed/evasion hax from UIO. The fighter in question for this VS thread is SSBE Vegeta who does not have these abilities.

9) See 8.

10) That's a big stretch. He hits her into a rock and she laughs and tells him it was wimpy. She says his attacks can't beat her. He lands a barrage of punches on her where she falls to the ground, gets up quickly, and even blocks his next attack. He hits her again through another rock and she just powers out of it angry instead of hurt. Hardly a ragdolling.

11) No, his attacks were not weaker. When SSBKK Goku fought Jiren he couldn't do anything. When he went UIO he forced Jiren back and landed a hit to Jiren's gut that hurt him. UIO's power is higher than SSBKK. Whis said that Goku couldn't utilize the offensive part of UI so his power didn't go up as much. His power certainly increased, just not as much as his speed and evasion. His power was weaker in comparison to his sharp increase in speed and evasion he got. It's be like getting X20 speed and evasion but only X2 power. Power still went up but not as high in comparison to the other stats.

12) See 4.

13) Two last ditch efforts. Kefla's is implied to kill Goku in a single shot vs Goku's blast that pushed Kefla to a ringout. Again, not the same kind of power.

14) See 1-5.

15) No, see 11.

16) SS2 Kefla would wreck SSBKK Goku, even at full stamina. She was able to one-hit SSBKK as a SS1. UIO eeked out a win via ringout becasue of hax speed/evasion saving him. SSBKK doesn't have these abilties and would get smashed. Goku breaking his limits also implies that Kefla is stronger. How often does someone break there limits against someone weaker than them? Goku states it himself that he was on the brink of defeat and it awakened his UI.

17) "Overall a stronger Blue multiplied by 20" is equal to SSBKKx20/SSBE. Both of which are weaker than UIO. Whom only ringed out Kefla due to hax abilities which SSBE Vegeta doesn't have.
 
1. Don't quote massive posts, it clogs up the threads.

2. I honestly don't see a single statement from you that 'debunks' my arguments. You just ignored the context and went "Well Kefla was also praised and did well!" or other statements along those lines. SSG Goku DID defend against Kefla despite being so exhausted that it's surprising for him to go Blue. SSB Goku DID clash with Kefla and match her movements evenly despite being so exhausted and SSBKK Goku DID wound SS Kefla despite being so exhausted that Beerus claims Goku could only do one more move.

Champa DID say that Kefla was much stronger than he expected but we also have Vados showing concern over her facing Goku and Champa reassuring her that Goku is heavily exhausted in the same conversation.

My statement referring to Kefla being ragdolled is also considerably accurate when she is consistently smashed around the arena by Goku but his attacks are outright stated to do no damage due to UIO being unable to switch between evasive and offensive movements efficiently. This is literally stated by Whis within the episode that it occurs in the middle of Goku kicking her aside effortlessly.

You also ignore that Goku and Vegeta grew stronger over the course of the Tournament of Power (See Post-UIO2 Blue Goku pushing Jiren harder than UIO1 Goku) which is an utterly absurd power increase due to breaking his limits.

Overall your response has not satisfactorily countered my own response. This is a much stronger version of Blue multiplied by 20. Vegeta grew stronger than that as he fought Toppo so this is actually at least 20x that when SSBKK Goku could injure Kefla (and we don't even know if that was 2x, 3x, 10x or 20x).

Lemme put it this way in terms of scaling.

SSBE (Vs Toppo) Vegeta > SSBE (Pre-Toppo) Vegeta = SSBKKX20 (Post-UIO2) Goku >>> SSB (Post-UIO2) Goku > UIO1 Goku.

Kefla's own energy rivalled the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb, which is weaker than UIO1 Goku, when she was in Super Saiyan. Piccolo then states that Kefla 'may have surpassed Goku's earlier state' when she goes Super Saiyan 2 (obviously referring to UIO1 Goku) who Post-UIO2 SSB Goku surpasses already.

With the above in mind it certainly makes sense for SS2 Kefla to be comparable to a Post-UIO2 SSB Goku considering she 'may have surpassed' Goku's earlier state (Which is likely meaning UIO1) who Post-UIO2 SSB Goku surpasses considerably.

You could refer to Kefla's ultimate attack but...why in the WORLD would you think that's impressive? It's stated that she is draining all of her energy on the attack and that UIO2 Goku would die if he was hit by it. Cool. But we have Vegeta's Final Explosion, Tien's Neo Tri-Beam, Roshi's MAX Power Kamehameha and probably some other techniques that I forgot that can use up tremendous levels of energy to damage opponents WAY stronger than they are. So what does Kefla's technique prove? That if she expends all of her energy she can kill UIO2 Goku? Cool. Vegeta's Final Explosion nearly killed Majin Buu and defeated GoD Toppo and Vegeta can actually fight after using it.
 
Ragdolling in the sence of getting thrown around but not kicking her butt.

I agree they should have gotten stronger. This Vegeta was an oversight on my part. I was meaning to refer to SSBE Vegeta when he intially unlocked it the first time, my bad.

SS Kefla scaling to the Spirit Bomb which is weaker than UIO1 is dumb. She fights UIO2 Goku and can fight against him. But Goku is much stronger than his UIO1 counterpart. So in that case, he should have easily beaten her but he didn't. Why would Goku struggle to put away a <UIO1 character when he was UIO2?

Again, if she "might have surpassed" his UIO1 power than why did Goku as a UIO2 struggle so much to put her away?

I compare both of there last ditch effort attacks because it implies who is stronger. Goku's attack ringed out Kefla at point blank range to the face. Versus Kefla's attack stated to kill Goku if it connected. This means her attack was stronger.
 
Alright I will change to using baseline SSBE Vegeta in my responses.

"So in that case, he should have easily beaten her but he didn't. Why would Goku struggle to put away a <UIO1 character when he was UIO2?"

Well. UIO1 Goku didn't do much to Jiren. At most he hurt him with a single attack which would certainly imply Kefla is above 40x Pre-UIO1 Blue. We have Whis stating that Goku is struggling to hurt Kefla due to the inefficient nature of UIO (as it can not switch between offense and evasion easily) so Goku was forced to use a Kamehameha to finish her off (note that this Super Kamehameha was so powerful that it completely overwhelmed Kefla, broke her potaras and a huge chunk of the arena).

That would be why he didn't just defeat Kefla in one blow. His UIO was incapable of using its offensive potential, only its evasive potential. You could argue that Goku only dodged and hit Kefla so easily due to UI hax but we clearly see Jiren match UIO Goku in speed and parrying/blocking all of his attacks (until Goku refined UI enough to land a direct blow) so why didn't Kefla do the same? Obviously because she can't match UIO Goku's speed which is something tied to power in DB.

We even see Kefla shocked numerous times by how quickly UIO2 Goku can move with her unable to react and knocked around easily. But she laughs off the damage over how weak it is compared to his speed which, again, Whis states is due to UIO having terrible offense.

Goku's Super Kamehameha likely had no intent to kill and was also his last attack due to his stamina running out so I don't think you can sincerely compare their abilities. One attack is stated to drain all of their energy and the other is an ordinary attack that is being done by someone on the verge of collapsing.

I could argue that MUI isn't even stronger than UIO. It's arguable that MUI is just Goku managing to tap into the offensive potential of UIO and it's speed which results in mastery of its power. But this veers into theorycrafting so I will leave that be.

So, again, we have statements supporting that SSB Goku would be an issue to SS Kefla by Vados and statements comparing SS Kefla to the Spirit Bomb and SS2 Kefla as being stronger than UIO1 Goku. Post-UIO2 Goku scales above UIO1 in Blue and SSBE Vegeta would be 20x that. His Final Explosion also seems to be just as powerful if not stronger than Kefla's final attack.
 
Alright, I'll edit the version of Vegeta to be more clear.

Kefla didn't do the same because Jiren is massively stronger and faster than her. Speed isn't and shouldn't always be tied to power. Dyspo was said to be the fastest in his universe. Does that mean he is stronger than Toppo and Jiren? When using Light Bullet, Both Zenos and Champa couldn't see his movement. Is he stronger than them? Vados said she barely managed to do so. So is he stronger than Vados?

She laughs it off because his offense isn't high enough in proportion to his speed and evasion gains. It is not weak. There is nothing showing his power was weaker than when he was SSBKK. If anything it went up, just not by a lot.

He was said to be putting everything into it. That implies full power without regaurd to if it kills. It wouldn't have killed her no matter what anyhow as they would never allow Goku to lose via DQ.

How is SSB Goku going to be compariable to SS Kefla when she ko'ed SSBKK Goku, who is stronger than SSB, in a single kick? You also have Champa derailing what Vados said by saying the exact opposite. That she would certainly beat him. I agree with Vegeta scaling to Goku in power but the fact still remains he doesn't have the hax speed and evasion of UIO. Vegeta's final explosion took much longer to charge and drained him. We don't know what Kefla's condition would have been had she landed her blast. After she was ringed out, the girls said "owe" then Caulifla immediately yells at Goku telling him she was going to beat him up someday. Both looked like they were not drained or badly damaged at all.
 
"Dyspo was said to be the fastest in his universe. Does that mean he is stronger than Toppo and Jiren? When using Light Bullet, Both Zenos and Champa couldn't see his movement. Is he stronger than them? Vados said she barely managed to do so. So is he stronger than Vados?"

No and I have no idea how you conceive of that as an argument. You outright state 'When using Light Bullet' which is a technique that amplifies speed by thousands of times with it having a maximum version which is even faster. That's evidently not tied to power as a technique built around speed amplification.

"She laughs it off because his offense isn't high enough in proportion to his speed and evasion gains. It is not weak. There is nothing showing his power was weaker than when he was SSBKK. If anything it went up, just not by a lot."

I never implied that. I implied that SSBKK could injure SS Kefla. This is SS2 Kefla who has powered up to her maximum and is said to be growing stronger (IIRC). This is also a heavily exhausted UIO Goku so his attacks would logically be considerably weaker even with the offense deficiency in-mind. That is why he had to resort to a Super Kamehameha. Prior to UIO it is stated that SSBKK Goku has the energy for one more attack. He does that final attack and is then promptly blitzed and knocked out by Kefla after he expended his last bits of stamina.

"He was said to be putting everything into it. That implies full power without regaurd to if it kills. It wouldn't have killed her no matter what anyhow as they would never allow Goku to lose via DQ. "

Sure. The last attack he could even use is one he poured the remainder of his power into. Doesn't mean that a peak condition SSBE Vegeta wouldn't beat Kefla. Just that a heavily exhausted UIO Goku used what embers of stamina he had to finish Kefla off.

"How is SSB Goku going to be compariable to SS Kefla when she ko'ed SSBKK Goku, who is stronger than SSB, in a single kick? You also have Champa derailing what Vados said by saying the exact opposite. That she would certainly beat him. "

I already explained why. Beerus and Whis refer to SSBKK as being a huge strain on an exhausted Goku and that he could only use one more attack after briefly using KK. Vados expresses concern over Kefla facing SSB Goku but Champa reminds her that Goku is still heavily exhausted from fighting Jiren. We have the peanut gallery refer to Goku going Blue as shocking. Like they didn't think he could even use it.

Kefla knocked SSBKK Goku out literally after he uses his last attack (directly after Beerus states Goku has only enough energy for one more attack).

"I agree with Vegeta scaling to Goku in power but the fact still remains he doesn't have the hax speed and evasion of UIO."

SSBE Vegeta scales to SSBKKX20 Post-UIO2 Goku as a baseline who is over 20x UIO1 Goku at a minimum. Vegeta has consistently abused rage boosts since his training in the Black arc and used them to a great extent against Toppo so I don't see why he would be locked out of rage boosting here. You could argue he would lack the same incentive due to Toppo being directly opposed to Vegeta's ethics but I'm pretty sure Vegeta outright states that he trained to use them willingly when he fought Black via HBTC.

He also has Final Explosion which can kill people many times his power (See SS2 Vegeta nearly vaporizing Buu entirely when Buu was akin to SS3 Goku in power). So a SSBE Final Explosion vs Kefla? Yeah I think Vegeta would vaporise. Factor in potential rage boosting? Even worse for Kefla.

"Vegeta's final explosion took much longer to charge and drained him."

Sure but I don't think Kefla is going to find the charging energy very pleasant to touch and I'm pretty sure his blast would just absorb Kefla's lasers. If it can block out a max power Hakai sphere then I don't see how tf Kefla is meant to penetrate it before Vegeta explodes.

"We don't know what Kefla's condition would have been had she landed her blast. "

We know she was draining ridiculous levels of energy on maintaining the attack. If she can tag Vegeta once it could kill him hypothetically but if he opts for Final Explosion he could just absorb all of it and kill the exhausted Kefla easily.

Kefla is extremely cocky and not too intelligent so I could picture her trying to just brute force her way through Vegeta. She sure as hell didn't handle UIO Goku auto-dodging all of her attacks well so if Vegeta can bother her it would just result in the same scenario. Vegeta is more calculating and intelligent than Goku anyways so while he lacks UI hax he would probably exploit Kefla's personality flaws when he notices how easy it is to tick her off.

"Both looked like they were not drained or badly damaged at all."

https://youtu.be/kNBFi7UnmZ8?t=219

Sure if you mean them heavily bruised and collapsed on the ground shaking in pain as 'not badly damaged or drained at all' then, yeah, sure. "But they got up afterwards!" Sure but neither of them were transformed either (even though they were transformed pre-Potara) and they are clearly struggling to move. I also don't know and don't care how Fusion treats its fusees regarding damage. Do they split the damage? Do they feel the same level of damage as Kefla did? How are they alive then? It doesn't really make sense.
 
SSJ2 Kefla > SSJ Kefla >= SSBKKx20 Goku = SSBE Vegeta (as confirmed by Toei, the creators of the SSBE form).
 
Sera EX said:
SSJ2 Kefla > SSJ Kefla >= SSBKKx20 Goku = SSBE Vegeta (as confirmed by Toei, the creators of the SSBE form).
Click to expand...
Where? Don't make such a huge claim without evidence. I detailed in my arguments above how Kefla's scaling is presented as only stronger than UIO1 in SS2 which SSB Goku would be comparable to via Post-UIO2 feats so knowing how this is contradicted is vital. I'll probably go offline right now though so I'll respond tomorrow.
 
Please don't assume I'm making claims without evidence...

It was a statement from a staff member at Toei when discussing why the created the SSBE form. I'll try and find it if I can.

Either way, I don't think SSBE Vegeta > Second UI Goku.
 
Sera EX said:
Please don't assume I'm making claims without evidence...
It was a statement from a staff member at Toei when discussing why the created the SSBE form. I'll try and find it if I can.

Either way, I don't think SSBE Vegeta > Second UI Goku.
Click to expand...
I didn't assume that. You didn't provide evidence which is why I asked for you to provide it. I understand benefit of doubt but were you going to provide evidence if I didn't request it? Or would you have been content with just claiming it unopposed?
 
Of course I'd post the evidence if you asked for it. And since it's something I'd have to dig up, if you don't ask for it, I wouldn't go through the trouble (if it was a CRT I would regardless). Thing is... "Don't make such a claim without evidence" isn't asking for evidence, it's a statement, not a question.

Anyway, I'm under the assumption that DB fans would know about the origins of the SSBE form by now as it's year-old information.
 
Toei stated to think of ssbe as vegetas ssbkk, not that it was equal.

And it is extremely hard to see vegeta, who beat a god of destruction level being, lose to someone who isn't on that level.

But then again, this is when it was first aquired, so it's iffy. But jiren was showing more power than in 110 and vegeta still managed to push him back with goku at the end of 123.
 
Sera EX said:
Of course I'd post the evidence if you asked for it. And since it's something I'd have to dig up, if you don't ask for it, I wouldn't go through the trouble (if it was a CRT I would regardless). Thing is... "Don't make such a claim without evidence" isn't asking for evidence, it's a statement, not a question.
Anyway, I'm under the assumption that DB fans would know about the origins of the SSBE form by now as it's year-old information.
Click to expand...
Well I just woke up and you still haven't provided a source for your claim so I guess there is nothing alluding to Kefla being stronger than Post-UIO2 SSBKKX20 Goku or SSBE Vegeta? I'll check the thread later to see if you found it.
 
Peter1129 said:
Peter1129 said:
The statement they made was SSBE = SSBKK not SSBE Vegeta = SSBKK Goku. https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1028025720751017984
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^
Click to expand...
Yeah that's a useful source but it doesn't answer where Sera's source for 'SS Kefla is stronger than or equal to SSBKKX20 Goku' comes from. I'm more than willing to argue that SSB Vegeta is stronger than SSB Goku based on feats so whether or not SSBE equals KKX20 due to Vegeta's Blue being stronger or if SSBE is just equivalent to KK in power boost is up to debate.
 
Do you realize I'm not tied to just this thread? I'm all over this site solving other issues and CRTs, a vs match is definitely very low on my priority list, including posting evidence as my input and statements as WoG. Someone can easily ignore them or refute them. He'll, consider the argument null and void if you like because I didn't post evidence in time, that's fine. By the way, I didn't post it because I've been falling asleep in between posting on different DC revisions and trying to make my daughter go to sleep.

Anyway, in regards to Kefla and Goku:

Kefla defeated Goku in KKx20 as a super saiyan. This was in the anime. SSJ2 Kefla is obviously above that and Goku needed UIO to defeat her. If you believe SSBKKx20 after the second UIO just bumps him way above SSJ2 Kefla, that's fine, that doesn't mean anything for Vegeta. SSB Vegeta is not stronger than SSB Goku. So SSBE Vegeta < SSBKKx20 Goku post-Kefla. With the exception of the first time Vegeta became a Super Saiyan, Vegeta has always been weaker than Goku. Super didn't magically do away with that just because Vegeta trained a couple times in the time chamber, nor does Veggie beating up Black that one time automatically put him above Goku. Vegeta only surpassed Kefla in my opinion after he powered up against Toppo/Top through rage and pride.
 
Cool. I was sleep deprived when I was talking last night, have university studies to prepare for and family drama that I'm not getting into. Not sure how it's relevant.

"Kefla defeated Goku in KKx20 as a super saiyan. This was in the anime. SSJ2 Kefla is obviously above that and Goku needed UIO to defeat her."

Yeah. no. The Kaio-Ken level is never specified. It's just some vague Kaio-Ken that can be 2x up to 20x. Goku was too exhausted to even go Super Saiyan earlier and him going Blue was treated as surprising so why would anyone think he is doing a full X20 Kaio? Goku was also extremely exhausted that entire fight. He had just gotten done being double-teamed against two Super Saiyans (One a SS2 and the other a Berserk SS) and fought SS Caulifa toe-to-toe in his weakened base form. He then got screwed with by Base Kefla and fought and matched SS Kefla in movements with Blue.

Kefla didn't appropriately harm Goku until he used his last attack in SSBKK (As stated by Beerus to be the only attack left in his stamina reserves) which KO'd him. Whis then compares SS Kefla to the Spirit Bomb when Goku went UIO again. Goku logically would have had to surpass the Spirit Bomb in UIO to survive it (thus limit break) and SSB Goku was fighting this Kefla despite being ridiculously exhausted with Vados displaying concern over Kefla's chances and Champa reassuring her by referring to Goku being exhausted from Jiren.

"If you believe SSBKKx20 after the second UIO just bumps him way above SSJ2 Kefla, that's fine, that doesn't mean anything for Vegeta. SSB Vegeta is not stronger than SSB Goku. "

Well, if an exhausted SSB Goku could fight someone comparable to the Spirit Bomb (even if briefly) which would make him over 20x stronger from Pre-UIO SSB Goku and could then surpass UIO1 after UIO2...and you multiply it by 20...when Kefla could only effectively fight Goku at his weakest and its heavily implied by Vados and Champa that a more recovered SSB Goku could be a threat to her then sure. Post-UIO2 SSBKKX20 Goku is far stronger than SS2 Kefla.

Goku pushed Jiren harder than he has been in 'a long time' according to Belmod and Vegeta manages to read Jiren's movements, directly strike Jiren in the stomach and tag him with a Final Flash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njCiVpjh8UM

I will note that Vegeta claims Jiren was stronger when he fought Goku, sure, but this Vegeta is actively forcing Jiren to move and is capable of hitting him directly multiple times which would put him above SSBKKX20 Goku pre-UIO. Hell it could even put him as around UIO1-level considering he may be referring to Post-UIO2 Goku Blue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4-omIasXOI

When you refer to SSBE Vegeta we clearly see it be stated that he 'broke his shell' like Goku did and we have statements from Toei that confirm that SSBE Vegeta is akin to SSBKK Goku (who is logically fighting at X20 against Jiren) so this isn't just '20x' it's a limit break that makes Vegeta far stronger than ever before, just like UIO. We also see it be stated that their attacks together may be capable of taking down Jiren. MEANING that SSBE Vegeta is powerful enough to be a direct cause of Jiren's defeat if he faces both Vegeta and Goku. Note that Jiren is fighting Goku, who is stronger than UIO1 Goku, multiplied by 20.

I doubt Jiren is switching between SSBKKX20 Goku-level and SSBE Vegeta-level so claiming they are treated as equal in this context is, in my mind, accurate.

"With the exception of the first time Vegeta became a Super Saiyan, Vegeta has always been weaker than Goku."

Vegeta was stronger than Goku until Goku trained at 100x gravity and got his ridiculous Namek zenkai. He was then akin to or stronger than Goku in the Android Saga. SS2 Goku and Majin SS2 Vegeta were near equals. Enraged SS2 Vegeta completely surpassed even SS3 Goku in power. SSB Vegeta is treated as equal to SSB Goku in RoF. Goku and Vegeta were still equals in Universe 6. Vegeta surpassed Goku massively when he tapped into rage boosting against Black. SSBE Vegeta is consistently depicted as comparable to SSBKKX20 Goku.

So, no. Vegeta has not 'always' been weaker than Goku.

"Super didn't magically do away with that just because Vegeta trained a couple times in the time chamber, nor does Veggie beating up Black that one time automatically put him above Goku. "

What are you even saying here? Vegeta objectively surpassed Goku Blue massively when he fought Black Post-HBTC. Sure Goku caught up and arguably surpassed Vegeta later but that doesn't alter the factual statement that SSB Vegeta was superior to SSB Goku in that instance.

"Vegeta only surpassed Kefla in my opinion after he powered up against Toppo/Top through rage and pride."

I've already explained time and again my reasoning for believing SSBE Vegeta scaling to Post-UIO2 SSBKKX20 Goku and why even Pre-UIO2 SSB Goku seems to scale to SS Kefla or above due to character statements and context.

This is a full power pre-Toppo SSBE Vegeta against someone who, based upon all feats and scaling, is comparable to Pre-UIO2 Non-exhausted SSB Goku at most. You can bring up SS2, sure, but SS2 Kefla couldn't do a damned thing to UIO2 Goku. She had to expend most of her energy in a desperate attempt to kill Goku which, again, people like Tien, Vegeta and Roshi have consistently done in the past to hurt opponents or perform feats far above their level.

SSBE Vegeta logically scales far above SS Kefla in this instance. Arguably SS2 Kefla as well. His Final Explosion is also far faster and easier for Vegeta to use and can kill opponents many times his power (via Buu scaling) and has objectively surpassed the most powerful Hakai seen from GoD Toppo. "But this is Pre-Toppo!" Yes, it is Pre-Toppo but that won't change the potency of Final Explosion was enough for Vegeta to completely overpower what is, essentially, a Super Hakai which is obviously far more potent than energy lasers.
 
I don't think Vegeta would just use final explosion (and nearly exauhst himself) in any instance, otherwise he would've done so against Broly. Vegeta only used it against Toppo because he needed an attack so powerful Toppo couldn't hakai it.

SSJ Kefla is comparable to Pre UIO2 Goku, SSJ2 is obviously stronger and she couldn't do anything against UIO because of its defense, she had the power to contend with him, that's why he used his super cool dodge all her attacks kamehameha to beat her, rather than just deflect all her attacks like he normally would. That's the same strategy he later used against Jiren when he was getting overwhelmed as Gohan confirm. This basically tells us he needed to use that strategy to win against Kefla.

Also, you realize that if Kefla couldn't do anything to UIO2 Goku she wouldn't even be Low 2-C right? Backwards scaling doesn't even work like that since according to you, she posed no threat to Goku.
 
"I don't think Vegeta would just use final explosion (and nearly exauhst himself) in any instance, otherwise he would've done so against Broly. Vegeta only used it against Toppo because he needed an attack so powerful Toppo couldn't hakai it."

Pretty sure SBAs state that they are in-character but willing to kill. If Vegeta can't kill Kefla by other means he will use Final Explosion. He can survive it in SSBE anyways so it wouldn't be an issue. (Albeit he survives it after growing stronger via rage boosting against Toppo).

"SSJ Kefla is comparable to Pre UIO2 Goku, SSJ2 is obviously stronger and she couldn't do anything against UIO because of its defense, she had the power to contend with him, that's why he used his super cool dodge all her attacks kamehameha to beat her, rather than just deflect all her attacks like he normally would."

This statement doesn't make much sense. I'm not sure why people seem stubborn to accept this but Beerus, Whis and other characters consistently state Goku is exhausted when he fights Kefla and it's outright stated that he only had enough stamina for a final attack when fighting Kefla. Why would Goku let himself be hit if he was low on stamina? Nonsensical claim. To add further we clearly see people equivalent to UIO Goku can tag him so it's very clear that Kefla is considerably weaker than UIO2 Goku.

"Also, you realize that if Kefla couldn't do anything to UIO2 Goku she wouldn't even be Low 2-C right? Backwards scaling doesn't even work like that since according to you, she posed no threat to Goku."

I don't care about CRTs or arguing whether or not she scales to Low 2-C and I'm not sure why you think it's relevant to bring up. We know that Goku couldn't harm Kefla due to the limitations of UIO and we know he effortlessly dodged all of her attacks. Kefla, based on statements, scales to below UIO1 in SS (due to her being compared to the Universe 7 Spirit Bomb which would logically be weaker than UIO1) and scales above UIO1 in SS2 (due to Piccolo stating that she may have surpassed 'Son's earlier state'). So Kefla would still logically be Low 2-C but still considerably weaker than UIO Goku.

I mean, really. Look at Goku vs Kefla. All of Goku's attacks were ineffective. His last possible attack, the Kamehameha, essentially one-shot Kefla considering it tore her potaras apart and left Caulifa and Kale in a collapsed heap when they defused.

Even if Kefla is powerful enough to not be one-shot by a heavily exhausted UIO2 Goku she would still have lost her potaras to his overwhelming power and, thus, defused. So if SSBE Vegeta scales above UIO1 Goku and has the Final Flash and Final Explosion (both of which are some of the most powerful amplification attacks in the entire franchise) then I don't see why he can't just overwhelm Kefla and destroy her potaras.

SSB Vegeta's Final Flash, in the links provided above, was so powerful that it utterly astounded the Universe 11 audience with Belmod (I think it was him or the Kai) going "Impossible! This is the power of a Saiyan?!" or something like that. Even though they already witnessed UIO1 and UIO2 Goku as well as SS2 Kefla. So if Belmod is going to make a statement like that concerning SSB Vegeta's Final Flash (and the audience and Vegeta seem convinced that it would have hurt, potentially put down, Jiren) then doesn't that imply SSB FF is stronger than SS2 Kefla and UIO2 Goku?
 
Nope. But thank you nonetheless. Also, in that case, why is this thread even alive, if it already happened. >.>
 
Ignorance. It also was never added to Vegeta's profile (I find that most DB matches take forever to add to profiles for some reason).
 
Figures. Well, guess we just wait until someone adds it, I suppose.
 
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