Various JoJo Questions (And the Scaling System)

[Arigarmy]

I have some minor JoJo questions, and in the meantime, I've discovered a slight hiccup in the scaling system. There are various explanations for some of the rankings on why a letter-ranked Stand is placed at whatever level. I'm just asking various questions about them, so I wouldn't consider this all Content Revision unless we all agree on a change.

1. Power Rank B: Small Building level to Large Building level (through scaling from stands like Bad Company to Magician's Red feat)

I assume from whatever the Small Building rank originates from, it'd be from Bad Company. However, these "Small Building" feats for it either A. Don't exist or have no calc, or B. Were wanked based off of statements as such. The manga says that Bad Compay was going to the destroy the Nijimura house over time, and I doubt destroying a Small Building over time =/= Small Building. Sources below.



This would eliminate Bad Company's inclusion in the description and the Small Building entirely, wouldn't it? If there's no Small Building feat, is the gap necessary? Should we just leave all B Rank Stands at High 8-C and just that?

2. Power Rank C: Street level to Wall level (through scaling from stands such as Gold Experience and Soft & Wet)

As you can see from the linked pages, both of those Stands ranking aren't Street level, but only Wall level. Like I've said before, if there's no Street level feat, why keep the gap? This would mean just keeping the 9-B ranking and leaving out the 9-C.

3. Speed Rank B: Massively Hypersonic to Speed of Light (from scaling from stands like Stone Free, The Hand, Purple Haze, and Scary Monsters)

Scary Monsters does have a Massively Hypersonic speed feat linked here: http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/calc-super-freak-steel-ball-run.26498/ . However, for Speed of Light? First of all, I thought this was originally Relativistic+, and secondly I haven't seen a feat or calc that puts any of the listed Stands at a similar speed. If we don't have a logical reason for that, why do we have it ranked as such? It confuses me, and a response on this would be great. Actually, why we have gaps in general outside of those Ranks of actually Unknown statings? Really, that's only the C Speed ranking since there are no feats/calcs on those Stands. An answer on that would be great, if anyone actually does have an argument on that.f

4. Scaling Contradictories

This is one of the more major ones. A user named Hazamada has a Stand called Surface. Its rank in Power is B, or Large Building level. This is a scan from the manga, Part 4 of Surface if you want to look into it yourself.


What would we do in this situation? Would we disregard this and place it at High 8-C, or would we take this as its stated and go for 10-B? Some Stands have contradictions like this, but not all of them.

5. Peak Human VS Superhuman JoJo characters

Half of the JoJo pages have Superhuman Physical Characteristics, while some of the other half only have Peak Human. I'm somewhat confused on this, because when I check some pages, when I think they have one of these listed on their Powers & Abilities, it feels like they've been switched around. If you check some various pages, some have Peak Human, some have Superhuman Physical Characteristics. Do we stick to one for all characters? I'm somewhat confused and I want to list these characters correctly instead of constantly having them switched somehow.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Gonna leave a follow on this to come back for later.

However, i'm gonna highlight this as this has actually, to varying levels, been a major issue ever since i and those such as Austrian and others have come to try and fix the scaling problems of these stand stats. Seeing as this will affect pretty much most if not all stand users and their stands in a way, this might be appropriate enough to get input on this from the staff and community.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Yeah the letter based ranking system doesnt seem consistent, instead I think we should just change the stats based on quantifiable feats. For example if a stand with rank A AP, speed and dura has never fought star platinum or any stands who have themselves combated star platinum at all, then it should instead be scaled off any feats it has done or the feats done by stands that this stand has fought before.

This would mean possibly major changes for a lot of stands but it is probably worth going through the details to make things more logically coherent.

 

[CinCameron20]

Personally, I don't know why we go with the Statistics ranking for the tiering here.

The Mangaka stated that he couldn't quite remember the earlier stands of the verse, such as The Emperor (which is ranked B in precision, yet it applies feats surpassing Chariot's Rank A Precision). Kiss is also another interesting one ranked A in power.

Just me?

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Just like Power Levels, Stand Rankings are pretty inconsistent and shouldn't really be used to scale


Also, why do we have Speedwagon, Will Zeppeli, and (before we scaled them to Post-Tarkus Jonathan) also Dire and Straizo 9-A for fighting fodder zombies when the 9-A calc was from a vampire feat? And Vampires > Zombies (except Tarkus, who has feats stronger than that same fodder vampire)

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Just like Power Levels, Stand Rankings are pretty inconsistent and shouldn't really be used to scale

Also, why do we have Speedwagon, Will Zeppeli, and (before we scaled them to Post-Tarkus Jonathan) also Dire and Straizo 9-A for fighting fodder zombies when the 9-A calc was from a vampire feat? And Vampires > Zombies (except Tarkus, who has feats stronger than that same fodder vampire)

>Just like power levels

lolwut

Please tell me one single time when a character with a much higher power level was beaten by a character with a lower power level. Back when power levels were in place, someone with a higher power level was completely supreme over a person with a lower one in all stats. But in jojo we see stands with apparently weaker listed stats defeating apparently stronger stat listed stands in pure H2H combat.


Also, yeah I was wondering about the 9-A speedwagon thing since that guy was a vampire and not a zombie, maybe for the zombie we could use jack the ripper's feat of closing off the tunnel's entry (tbh, I think we should first calc that feat and then say that because jack seemed to be an above average zombie, an average fodder zombie would be less than the final value of the feat thus making speedwagon somewhere below the value of jack's feat).

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Well, what I meant is that scaling with them isn't the best idea...

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Well, what I meant is that scaling with them isn't the best idea...

Agreed, I think we should powerscale only based on direct combat, eg Sp is stronger than magician's red hence he is at least High 8-C, but a stand who never fought magician's red and has a ranking of A in power might actually be weaker than magician's red.

Like diego brando (with a B in AP) making clearly visible damage to D4C (who has an A in AP and dura) and dominating it to such an extent that the president had to get out of the fight to have any chance of survival at all.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Oh and another thing, why is Wil Zeppeli at "At least 9-A"- the reasoning is stated to be that he better fought off tarkus than jojo, but thats because he is better at using hamon than jojo, hence he is better off against tarkus, I dont see how it would make him stronger than a small building buster when he himself stated that his hamon is useless for destruction is useful in combat only as a weakness of the undead, that and him being unable to destroy a normal steel door.

 

[Arigarmy]

I'm not the one who made Zeppeli's page, so I have no idea fam.

Also, what would we do with the characters that don't have any feats with their Stands? Uh, Jumpin' Jack Flash from Part 6 would be a good example. Would we just put them at Unknown? If we drop the scaling system, it'd change a lot of the pages.

 

[Arigarmy]

From what I know, Part 5 may get nerfed the heaviest since there aren't many SP scalings to help them out. The only feat I recall being considered strong was the Wall level feat from GE. Oasis is also a possibility, but I'll need to reread it.

 

[Naitez]

I was always wary of even using Stand rankings for scaling characters in the first place because it didn't always match up with what you see in the actual manga. Also, people kept mistaking the "durability" stat for actual durability when it actually means something else entirely. You'd be questioning things like "how was Cioccolata able to cut himself to pieces with normal surgical equipment if he has Large Building level durability" if you took that as fact.

 

[Joseph619]

Well since this site doesn't use author's intentions, should the stand rankings be scrapped for actual feats?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Alright i think i have time and energy to finally make a comment about this, though i wish there was more staff input considering only TLT1 bothered to at least but oh well...

Regarding the whole problem of Stand rankings and scaling, it seems to have been some of us (in the sense of those who still use them seriously enough) bite off more than we can chew on this. I was wondering if we could have still used this in a way of how we scale those from Fate/Grand Order, Marvel Comics, and PMMM even. Then i realized that JJBA is pretty damn inconsistent when you look at it's feats for each stands.

Like Gold Experience and Soft & Wet so far only have Wall busting level feats (DK of GE's actually but one of it's only best feats was wrecking the shit out of a bunch of cars in seconds). And we kind of scale the former to stands that probably might not be as tough as SP or any stand as powerful as it.

SP has feats that, by itself, leads up to Building level iirc. Though for it being more powerful than MR who did a feat that goes slightly above baseline High 8-C, that seems more or less unnecessary to use them except have them as back up justifications.

Overall, looking at the other comments above, its probably best to just not use them. I tried to do something about them since last year, then we had AMM who tried, then we have Ari here trying. I just can't think of what we can do for these guys anymore aside from having to just actually go look for feats of them and scale them from there. Though if they had fought a stand like SP or fought other stands that did fought and kept up with it, i can still see scaling being used here.

Though as Arigarmy said here, we're pretty much gonna have to nerf them to unknowns for the most part. Which i guess makes them as bad as Marvel if we did the same for them, though at least JJBA is more accessible to go through for any potential feats whereas Marvel.....eh......mmm....yeah, they at least somewhat have a reason to use data scaling.....at times. Not something i like using at times, but they have somewhat of a reason to use them.

So yeah from the looks of it, those like Diego's MHS speed feat and MR's High 8-C feat are something we can still go by. IDK about other stands and their users so that one is a real toughie to get through if we're gonna just not bother with stand rank scaling anymore.

As for the thing that TLT1 questioned about, i didn't really think that one out until now when he pointed out. I suppose that zombies might not be as powerful as a vampire though we definitely need something else then to scale for Jonathan and Zeppili really.

Not as thought up as i can to say here, but it's something we may have to really do for the best......unless someone here on the wikia or so can explain otherwise...

 

[Arigarmy]

I don't know, S&W OHKO'd Damo, and I've thrown this feat including Damo a lot, it just has no calc yet. It could be beyond Wall via that feat.

Otherwise we would probably need to know what Stands would be ranked at Unknown first before we deal with those who can scale legitimately. I know that most of Part 3, Part 4, and some of Part 6 can scale off of SP. Part 5 is rough still, the only AP feats I've found as of late is Aerosmith in the Little Feet fight and Oasis doing his shenanigans. All we can go for in Part 6 that I know right now is the one statement of Jolyne's full form being able to give an output of a fast-moving small metor.


I'm still looking as hard as I can for feats. I'm rereading DiU to see if I find anything.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Ah.....that can be a good feat for Part 8.

Yeah, that's gonna be the tough part to do first.

Alright.

 

[Arigarmy]

I found some weird Yukako stuff with her destroying a house, and then getting literally blasted away with a Blast Away kanji. She lives from this, obviously. The damage done by Love Deluxe seems Wall, but I'm more interested in the blast away part.

 

[Antvasima]

Personally I think that using feats combined with Databook scaling seems to avoid an awful lot of Unknown statistics, and that you othervise risk to turn the Jojo pages into an incoherent mess in general.

Inconsistencies with lower-ranked stands beating higher ones, should probably be treated as due to hax or as plot convenience.

However, I am not well-versed regarding the series, so I might be wrong.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Perhaps that might be the case.

The thing is that the problems mentioned by the others above do make a point about how we scale them from the data books. Marvel has the same problem like this except, to some degree even tho I myself disapprove of it at times, it has an actual reason to still use it.

I'm not sure of how this will play out in. The long run depending on what we do here though....

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Personally I think that using feats combined with Databook scaling seems to avoid an awful lot of Unknown statistics, and that you othervise risk to turn the Jojo pages into an incoherent mess in general.
Inconsistencies with lower-ranked stands beating higher ones, should probably be treated as due to hax or as plot convenience.

However, I am not well-versed regarding the series, so I might be wrong.

The thing is, the letter based rankings seem to make no sense based on feats and that is also an opinion that most fans hold as well. So they are mostly meaningless.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that you could try to use regular scaling instead, but it is very difficult to find the statistics of so many characters.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Well, I suppose that you could try to use regular scaling instead, but it is very difficult to find the statistics of so many characters.

We dont need feats for every single stand. We just need feats for a few stands for each part, and then scale the rest of the stands off those results.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

That can work, but i feel like that some stands may just be unknown with hax as brute force isn't the only thing that determines the fight of a stand battle.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

That can work, but i feel like that some stands may just be unknown with hax as brute force isn't the only thing that determines the fight of a stand battle.

I know, it is expected for a few stands to be unknown in stats.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Right.

 

[LoudCloud]

Not sure if this will be of much help, but when exactly are those Rankings shown to us?

Because if they're given after a certain fight/feat (that seems to contradict the rank), it could be because the Stand has gotten stronger since that fight/feat. Part 3 makes it clear that inexperienced stand users have a hard time using their Stands at full power (like Jotaro when fighting Avdol). So it's reasonable some of them actually achieve that ranking after said fight/feat.

Of course, I don't expect this to sort out all the inconsistencies and it's very dependant on when during the story the Rankings are shown. So take it with a grain of salt. Just a possiblity.

Other than that, yeah, the Stand Rankings don't seem usable. The Rankings don't even seem consistent with themselves; the "durability" and "range" stats mean different things depending on context.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

IIRC, they're kind of given after a stand is introduced and at times when a fight starts.

 

[LoudCloud]

In that case my theory doesn't hold up.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Also as i was reminded of this, we should also take out stand range ranks as some just don't really make any sense for.....well all of them. Like Jotaro's stand of SP has a C which is supposed to be okay, but has 2 meters. At first i was alright with this but then realized the fact that Giornos' GE has an E yet also has 2 meter active range. Heck i think even Diavolo's has that too. Just a note along with that we note their abilities can range even higher depending on the stands themselves.

 

[LoudCloud]

Would doing away with Stand Rankings finally put an end to the controversy of Star Platinum having an E rank in durabilty during part 6?

(which I think was probably refering to his downgraded time stop to begin with)

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

IDK. That's a thing i'm not sure about as i don't think of it much.

 

[Arigarmy]

His time stop wasn't downgraded, it was just his durability. Otherwise yeah, the removal of the system would effectively also remove the databook statement.

 

[LoudCloud]

That being said we really shouldn't go all trigger happy with the new powerscalings either. For example, I see we have Silver Chariot as "likely at least Large Building level" due to scaling to Star Platinum when it was very obvious that was only because of Anubis.

 

[Arigarmy]

I don't recall Anubis enhancing physical strength, and I remember SC getting some hits in. I'll have to reread Anubis, though.

I also recall SC getting a good hit in on DIO, even if it was just one.

 

[LoudCloud]

In the anime it certainly does. It seems to be part of its powers. The Jojo wiki states: "both Jotaro and Polnareff noted that Anubis was becoming faster and stronger by the second during their respective fights against its possessed wielders. Coupled with its Intelligent Development, Anubis could have potentially become one of the most powerful Stands of all had it not been defeated - it would gradually become stronger, faster, and smarter with every battle until no one could defeat its wielder in a direct fight.

Keep in mind it made a mere human keep up with Silver Chariot in terms of speed, so I imagine it could easily give Silver Chariot the required AP to keep up with Star Platinum.

 

[Arigarmy]

We don't use the anime however, if I go off memory. We only use the manga. We'd have a City level Dio if we used the anime.

 

[LoudCloud]

Also Anubis had its own rankings when it was introduced (B in power and speed). Not that rankings are that important anymore but I doubt Araki would bother to give Anubis his own rankings if it simply used its wielders.

 

[LoudCloud]

I checked the manga and it was pretty much the same thing. We had two humans keep up with Silver Chariot's speed and Polnareff mentioned how Anubis' stats kept increasing from fight to fight. Jotaro also said so later on.

We know Human w/Anubis  Silver Chariot > Human, plus all the times they claim Anubis gets stronger/faster as it fights. I'd say that's confirmation.

 

[Arigarmy]

>Human w/Anubis  Silver Chariot

I would just put an equal mark my guy, SC evenly dueled with Anubis before.