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Vampire Hunter D: Cosmology Upgrade (1-A??????)

RM97

RM97

1,038
504
It's been quite a while since there's any new CRT for VHD and while there's still an ongoing 20+ books and short stories that remain untranslated so far, this cosmology blog used information from all the translated materials released so far. Huge Thanks to @TokiNoOuja for finding out some stuffs regarding the cosmology and this wouldn't have been possible without him.

Here is the Cosmology Blog: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:RM97/Vampire_Hunter_D_Cosmology_Explanation

Tl;dr
  • Main Universe = Low 1-C (5D)
  • Dreams = At least 1-C (7D), Possibly High 1-B
  • Multiverse = At least 1-C (7D), Possibly High 1-B
  • Space Between Dimensions = At least 1-C (8D), Possibly Low 1-A
  • The Nothingness = At least 1-C (9D), Possibly Low 1-A
  • Universal Consciousness = At least High 1-C (10D), Possibly 1-A
  • Akashic Records = At least High 1-C (11D), Possibly 1-A
  • Chaos = At least High 1-C (11D), Possibly 1-A

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:
 
Dreams are fictional in nature and despite being similar to Reality, they are the opposite. Heck, D's dream merging with reality is stated to be "Fiction and Fact". Dreams within Dreams are recursive in nature where you can be trapped inside a dream within a dream, as shown in both Volume 5 and 26. The extension of this recursiveness is what's unknown.
 
Dreams here just seemed like actual alternate realities to me instead of a R>F difference although "fiction and fact" might change this (there also needs to be way more evidence for infinite recursion even if possibly). I also do disagree with equating mathematical structures to a tegmark IV multiverse since "mathematical structures" can exist independent from that and that a type 4 multiverse is not inherently any rating now from what I've heard from staff. Overall I disagree with High 1-C and possibly High 1-B and above. low 1-C and maybe 1-C (depending on how dreams work compared to baseline reality and other factors that aren't dream related) seems to be fair game though.
 
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Dreams are alternate realities that one can access only via mind and exist as soul in them. A person cannot physically exist in a dream no matter what. However, dreams within dreams are hierarchies, as these dreams exist inside the dreams. A Dream is the same as the Main Universe. However, only Sybil's Dream is special (aside from the fact that Sacred Ancestor granted her this power) as it extends to a Dream (baseline dream) within a Dream which all takes place in a Dream, and the very baseline of this Dream already has shown to have 3D stuffs as per the novel. It wouldn't be low into 11-C considering it has Space and Time too and that 11-C structures exist as Zero-Space in VHD.

As for "any mathematical structures", I'm going off this comment from Ultima from this thread:
On the whole, "All structures that exist mathematically also exist physically somewhere out there" is a kind of cosmology that has a lot of potential, since any kind of math structure, the moment it's mentioned in-story, would be included there. Would take very little pushing to have this sort of stuff skyrocket all the way to 0 depending on the verse, even.

As for the argument for it being 1-A, specifically: Eh. If all the verse mentions is higher-dimensional spaces, for example, under the current underpinnings of the Tiering System, the most I'd be willing to extrapolate for such a thing would be High 1-B. This is because finite numbers of dimensions are inductive in nature, so, if you have n dimensions, for any number n, then mathematically you can also have n+1 dimensions. Naturally, that would result in countably infinite dimensions existing.
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Now VHD does have higher dimensions and going by this train of thought, "Any Mathematical Structure" would be High 1-B at most. However, if we don't tier any mathematical structure, then its fair to not have it tier anything High 1-B or Low 1-A.
 
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Count me in agreement

Btw in the Dream section mentioned how it described as Eternity of Dreams might implied there are endless hierracies of recursive dreams within dreams,this no one able to escape it which had possibly for being High 1-B but if not then its okay
 
Everything looks alright but that Void stuff lacking mathematical structures within it feels like... Well I won't say much but to look further how this debate would go down
 
I agree with 5D

I disagree with dreams being 7D or high 1-B as while I would agree with the dreams being a part of the multiverse and being as large as universes, the whole dreams within dream stuff doesn't work. This is due to the fact that the dreams within dreams would be 11-A (and 11-C if we presume there are an infinite count of them) as the baseline reality by our standards would be the dream at the top of the stack, and therefore each dream within a dream would simply just be more and more "fictional".

I am neutral on the space between dimensions being 8D or Low 1-A (Or 6D if the dream stuff gets rejected) as while I can see the argument there, I don't personally agree with it

I agree with the low end of Nothingness (Though there is something to be said about it lacking these things because it is an existential void rather than being transcendent of these things) and disagree with the high end as I do not believe this to be enough to conclusively say that this is in reference to a Type IV multiverse.

Agree with the Universal Consciousness existing to a higher degree than the Nothingness.

Agree with the Akashic Records existing above the Universal Consciousness

Agree with Chaos existing on the same level as the Akashic Records

You are already in a Discord server with me so if you wanna talk this out just ping me there because I would rather not have to deal with the forum today
 
Additionally, while the Main Universe has a Timeline containing different dimensions as evidenced in Volume 2, time is also treated as a Dimensional Axis as stated that there is a "Distance" between any two points in time that can overlap with each other.
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The context makes it sound like "distance" is just talking about the length of time between the years. Its talking about something travelling from 1945 to 4018


Why are the dreams within dreams hierarchies? If the dreams have 3D space in it like you said, then that means the real world doesn't see dreams as below 3D and thus seeing something as a dream in VHD does not make you transcend it dimensionally

Thus from the information gathered here so far, it can be construed that the Space Between Dimensions is a Universal Sized Realm that encompasses all the other Dimensions in the VHD verse including the Main Universe, the Multiverse, the Lower Dimensions, and even Dreams and their hierarchy. Therefore, this makes the Space between Dimensions At Least 1-C (8D), Possibly Low 1-A structure owing to the fact that not only it lacks higher extensions of Spatial and Temporal Dimensions to the point it has no flow of time, but also can contain the recursive hierarchies of Dreams
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If it has no length, breadth, height and time then it should be dimensionless, not tier 1 at all. I don't think we count this as Low 1-A though, but if we do it would be good if you can find an example of something that is scaled to low 1-A on this wiki because it is dimensionless

Will read the rest later
 
deonment said:
You are already in a Discord server with me so if you wanna talk this out just ping me there because I would rather not have to deal with the forum today
Click to expand...
Aight I'll ping you.
Hypertornado099 said:
The context makes it sound like "distance" is just talking about the length of time between the years. Its talking about something travelling from 1945 to 4018
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Well yes it is talkinh about the "Length" of time. But nothing travelled from 1945 to 4018. Rather if you read the quote, those two eras were overlapped with each other instantly.
Hypertornado099 said:
Why are the dreams within dreams hierarchies? If the dreams have 3D space in it like you said, then that means the real world doesn't see dreams as below 3D and thus seeing something as a dream in VHD does not make you transcend it dimensionally
Click to expand...
Real World seeing Dreams as below 3D or above 3D isn't an argument made in the OP. That's just a strawman as how the Real World perceives the dream world is irrelevant here. What's relevant is how the Dream World perceives itself. The Dreams within Dreams are as literal as it can be aka a Dream World inside a Dreamworld. As I explained to @BestMGQScalerEver, the Dream (that was inside the Dream which itself was inside the Dream of Sybille) has 3D stuff in it. So in no way does it actually prove tier 11-A or 11-C.
Hypertornado099 said:
If it has no length, breadth, height and time then it should be dimensionless, not tier 1 at all. I don't think we count this as Low 1-A though, but if we do it would be good if you can find an example of something that is scaled to low 1-A on this wiki because it is dimensionless
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure something lacking Dimensional features but still encompassing and containing dimensions/worlds along with different objects would be tier 1. Not to mention, the verse already has Dimensionless realm called the Zero-Space.
Also, I'm told not to bring examples in threads but similar cases are The Edge from BlazBlue or Dimensional Rift. Though if it is Dimensionless and yet encompassing dimensions/worlds, then it'll be 1-A straight up.
 
RM97 said:
Real World seeing Dreams as below 3D or above 3D isn't an argument made in the OP. That's just a strawman as how the Real World perceives the dream world is irrelevant here. What's relevant is how the Dream World perceives itself. The Dreams within Dreams are as literal as it can be aka a Dream World inside a Dreamworld. As I explained to @BestMGQScalerEver, the Dream (that was inside the Dream which itself was inside the Dream of Sybille) has 3D stuff in it. So in no way does it actually prove tier 11-A or 11-C.
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I did not say that you argued the real world seeing dreams as below 3D. I said the opposite of that, my point was the fact that the real world doesn't transcend the dream world means that seeing something as a dream isn't transcending it in VHD due to the fact that the real world sees dreams as real, actual realities

I'm pretty sure something lacking Dimensional features but still encompassing and containing dimensions/worlds along with different objects would be tier 1. Not to mention, the verse already has Dimensionless realm called the Zero-Space.
Click to expand...
I don't know what the second point about already having dimensional realms proves, but why would lacking dimensional features but still containing them be low 1-A?
 
Hypertornado099 said:
I did not say that you argued the real world seeing dreams as below 3D. I said the opposite of that, my point was the fact that the real world doesn't transcend the dream world means that seeing something as a dream isn't transcending it in VHD due to the fact that the real world sees dreams as real, actual realities
Click to expand...
Real World transcending the Dreamworld or not despite seeing them as unreal is not relevant here too. That's because Real World and Dream World are entirely of two different natures where someone in Reality sees the dreamworld as unreal and vice versa. However, Dream inside Dream (which is only a case for Sybille and Dorleac) would indeed be a hierarchy as an (inner) Dream inside an (outer) Dream is formed only when someone sleeps and "Dreams" in the (outer) Dream [which is actually very absurd as the beings existing in (outer) Dream are already in their Metaphysical form and yet they can sleep, dream, and exist inside the (inner) dream]. This (inner) dream itself contains 3D stuff so it isn't 11-A or 11-C.
Hypertornado099 said:
I don't know what the second point about already having dimensional realms proves, but why would lacking dimensional features but still containing them be low 1-A?
Click to expand...
Because dimensionless realms (0D) are already a thing in VHD and they aren't the same as the Gap between Dimensions. As for why its Low 1-A, well firstly, it is a high-end interpretation with possible key. Secondly, it's likely because the realm has some form of Space and Nobles can reach this space as they're stated to reach Extradimensional Spaces including higher dimensional ones via tech.
 
RM97 said:
Because dimensionless realms (0D) are already a thing in VHD and they aren't the same as the Gap between Dimensions. As for why its Low 1-A, well firstly, it is a high-end interpretation with possible key. Secondly, it's likely because the realm has some form of Space and Nobles can reach this space as they're stated to reach Extradimensional Spaces including higher dimensional ones via tech.
Click to expand...
I will address all the points in the blog but this is not something that is taken by default, unfortunately no.
 
So which scan exactly says that the dream within another dream is an upward hierarchy (High 1-B) instead of downward (11-C)? Having 3-D stuff within it doesn't mean much either, a fictional being can still be portrayed as a regular 3-dimensional being just fine.
 
I think I'll need to elaborate on Dreams section but basically why the Hierarchy is an upward one and not a downward one is basically these points:
  • The inner dream (the "dream" within a dream within a dream) is as real as reality. That is, if you get affected there (even though you exist as a metaphysical entity), you'll feel pain and feel affected physically as per the dream's reality. Not to mention, "Dying" in this Inner Dream means "Dying" in Reality despite dying in Dreams is simply not possible as a Person dying in their dream will wake up in reality as per my blog quote. It's to be clarified that D's body remained in the Main Universe while his metaphysical self remained in the Dreamworld of Sybille where he was imprisoned/trapped inside a Dream within a Dream inside the Dreamworld of Sybille.
  • This realness of the inner dream is further substantiated in the same quote that it has 3D beings who can kill you in the dream and you'll die in Reality.
  • D could instantly figure out that the he was inside a Dream within a Dream, and even in Volume 26 and 13, D as well as Twin D respectively were able figure out that they were inside Dreams. However, D could not figure out from the get go that Sybille's Dreamworld is a dream and D could not escape that world. This implies that Sybille's Dreamworld is actually different in nature than basic Dreams.
  • The flow of time is very fast in Sybille's Dreamworld (as explained in my blog where 2 hours in Main Universe is actually over 2 Days in Sybille's Dreamworld) despite the flow of time is uniform between Main Universe and Regular Dreams.

Thus, all in all, there's a upward hierarchy where Sybille's Dreamworld is the higher world (which is also because the power granted to her to do this is from the Sacred Ancestor himself), and the Inner Dream within the Outer Dream within Sybille's Dreamworld is baseline Reality equivalent. How does this extend to Possibly High 1-B? I explained it in my blog but if its not sufficient of an evidence, then oh well.
 
I know this might seem a bit too picky but something people might point out.

So if dreamt dreams are just as real why wouldn't that apply to the dream within the dream and that it is simply just contained by it? Not too sure on this point myself though.
 
RM97 said:
  • The inner dream (the "dream" within a dream within a dream) is as real as reality. That is, if you get affected there (even though you exist as a metaphysical entity), you'll feel pain and feel affected physically as per the dream's reality. Not to mention, "Dying" in this Inner Dream means "Dying" in Reality despite dying in Dreams is simply not possible as a Person dying in their dream will wake up in reality as per my blog quote. It's to be clarified that D's body remained in the Main Universe while his metaphysical self remained in the Dreamworld of Sybille where he was imprisoned/trapped inside a Dream within a Dream inside the Dreamworld of Sybille.
  • This realness of the inner dream is further substantiated in the same quote that it has 3D beings who can kill you in the dream and you'll die in Reality.
Click to expand...
Isn't that just mean that by logically, someone's physical and metaphysical not be independent and somehow got related? That's why when your metaphysical got affected, the cause would be happening on your physical too.

This would prove that the "inner" dreams isn't real as reality or 3-D plane. It's just a dreams like a 2-D plane.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
I know this might seem a bit too picky but something people might point out.

So if dreamt dreams are just as real why wouldn't that apply to the dream within the dream and that it is simply just contained by it? Not too sure on this point myself though.
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If we go by that route also then it'll still be a hierarchy given how dimensions act in VHD where a smaller infinity is embedded/contained by a bigger one.
FlugelAlcor said:
Isn't that just mean that by logically, someone's physical and metaphysical not be independent and somehow got related? That's why when your metaphysical got affected, the cause would be happening on your physical too.

This would prove that the "inner" dreams isn't real as reality or 3-D plane. It's just a dreams like a 2-D plane.
Click to expand...
Not quite, no. The metaphysical can exist independent to the physical but the opposite isn't possible. That's why destroying/killing the soul in VHD can cause death to the physical self. However, it's not like if your metaphysical got hurt, then it'll showcase in your physical self too. D was hurt by those creatures within the dream and felt pain and knew that dying in the dreams meant death in real life. Even at the end of the novel, he had injuries. However, when he woke up from all of this into the real world, his physical self didn't have any injuries.

I don't know how you got to that conclusion but if inner Dreams were absolutely fictional/unreal, they wouldn't even be able to affect the metaphysical self (and by extension the physical self in the main universe) in the first place. It'll be as absurd as an Author in the real world getting killed just because his Author Avatar in his fictional world got killed by fictional characters.
 
Delta333 said:
The dreams here are literally just alternate realities if you’re trying to prove thay they’re as real as reality, not sure why it is R-F.
Click to expand...
Majority already knows it being real reality comparable to the Main Universe,they are talking about Dreams hierracies
 
If someone Dreams in the Main Universe or any other parallel/alternate universe, the Dreams become Alternate Realities.

However, if someone inside a Dream were to "Dream" (as absurd as this sounds and which only happened in the special cases of Sybille and Dorleac only), it becomes a Dream "within" a Dream, i.e. a hierarchy of Dreams where a dream is contained inside a larger dream which itself is contained inside a larger dream. Hence why D couldn't easily escape from this Dream within a Dream despite him capable of moving back and forth between Main Universe and Regular Dreams, and had to employ a different approach to escape and still ended up inside the larger/outer dream instead of the Real World/Main Universe.

As for how this hierarchy goes upwards (towards tier 1) and not downwards (towards tier 11), I have explained it a few comments above where the innermost dream is the equivalent to baseline reality of VHD.
 
Delta333 said:
If it’s dream hierarchy then I can see R-F here, tho still don’t think it’s infinite hierarchy.
Click to expand...
Well it being an infinite hierarchy or not is up to what people think from what I explained with information in the blog. Hence I put the highest end interpretations as "possibly X tier". But if the evidence does not suffice, then it is what it is and I'll have to remove those high ends.
 
Robo432343 said:
seeing something as a dream counts as qualitative superiority
its in the r>f page
Click to expand...
That's because seeing something as a dream means you're seeing them as less real

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority.
Click to expand...
And that is not the case here, proven by the fact that dreams are real
 
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