Using Guns

[Arkenis]

How exactly would you be faster then the bullets in that scenario?

Depends on the actions you accomplish and also what gun is used.

Something simple you can do is use say 9x19mm Parabellum: 390m/s

Assuming a character did an action where he moved 6m * 390m/s (gun speed) / 3m away (distance bullet was away) = 780m/s the character is now 2x faster than the bullet.

Now also take into account the skill of the shooter, he may be capable of firing it faster thus the target needs be consistently capable of reacting at this speed and likely greater especially with battles where they get up closer such as swordsmen vs gun fights.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

The main purpose is, whether or not a character using guns would be a valid reason to call feats outliers. KLOL506 disagrees.

In the case of a dude using guns while being calced as faster than them, you gotta remember there's the issue of combat/reactions and movement speed. While a character may "technically" be hypersonic or so based on their combat speed that's really just quick motions like swinging their arms or weapons. If they aren't hypersonic in terms of movement speed they still got an issue with range which is what a gun would supplement.

 

[Vzearr]

The problem is that your reasoning directly entails it would.

You've misunderstood my reasoning.

If the dudes were scaled to largely faster then the bullets they use, and somewhat comparable to the flash. Then I would say that the dudes aren't actually that much faster then bullets because it'd just be an inconvenience to use bullets at that point when you know the flash is extremely capable of dodging them but less capable of dodging you.

Depends on the actions you accomplish and also what gun is used.

Something simple you can do is use say 9x19mm Parabellum: 390m/s

Assuming a character did an action where he moved 6m * 390m/s (gun speed) / 3m away (distance bullet was away) = 780m/s the character is now 2x faster than the bullet.

Now also take into account the skill of the shooter, he may be capable of firing it faster thus the target needs be consistently capable of reacting at this speed and likely greater especially with battles where they get up closer such as swordsmen vs gun fights.

This is just a disproportionate highball.

In the case of a dude using guns while being calced as faster than them, you gotta remember there's the issue of combat/reactions and movement speed. While a character may "technically" be hypersonic or so based on their combat speed that's really just quick motions like swinging their arms or weapons. If they aren't hypersonic in terms of movement speed they still got an issue with range which is what a gun would supplement.

Close range. KLOL506 still seemingly disagrees with me.

 

[Arkenis]

This is just a disproportionate highball.

What does that mean?

 

[Vzearr]

What does that mean?

You're highballing the distance one character has to move to dodge the bullet. In reality you would need to move no more then 5cm to dodge a bullet, or at most 1 metre. Most calcs where people have feats like bullet timing they only really move 0.1-2 meters at max. 6 meters? Highballing to the moon and a extremely rare scenario.

 

[Arcker123]

If the dudes were scaled to largely faster then the bullets they use, and somewhat comparable to the flash. Then I would say that the dudes aren't actually that much faster then bullets because it'd just be an inconvenience to use bullets at that point when you know the flash is extremely capable of dodging them but less capable of dodging you.

Motte and Bailey tactics.

In your analogy, you said Character A seeing Character B blitz their bullets for a Hypersonic feat and still using guns against them means Character B's feat wouldn't make sense. Randoms goons can be mid fight with Flash, see him blitz their bullets and still keep shooting him.

The Mooks speed scaling in comparison to the flash outside of them just shooting at him is not relevant, you're just shifting to a different argument.

 

[Vzearr]

Motte and Bailey tactics.

In your analogy, you said Character A seeing Character B blitz their bullets for a Hypersonic feat and still using guns against them means Character B's feat wouldn't make sense. Randoms goons can be mid fight with Flash, see him blitz their bullets and still keep shooting him.

The Mooks speed scaling in comparison to the flash outside of them just shooting at him is not relevant, you're just shifting to a different argument.

No I'm not, this has been my main argument from the start.

 

[Arkenis]

You're highballing the distance one character has to move to dodge the bullet. In reality you would need to move no more then 5cm to dodge a bullet, or at most 1 metre. Most calcs where people have feats like bullet timing they only really move 0.1-2 meters at max. 6 meters? Highballing to the moon and a extremely rare scenario.

Oh no I am talking about actions in general, swinging of the sword, moving his arm to catch several bullets stuff like that. Also 6m isn't that far... athletes can do bounds just half of 6m, a lot of the verses we scale where characters are far faster than guns usually are characters who are physically better than our real world athletes, its really not that crazy.

 

[Vzearr]

Oh no I am talking about actions in general, swinging of the sword, moving his arm to catch several bullets stuff like that. Also 6m isn't that far...

Swinging a sword still wouldn't be moving 6 meters (generally).

Athletes can do bounds just half of 6m, a lot of the verses we scale where characters are far faster than guns usually are characters who are physically better than our real world athletes, its really not that crazy.

This literally has nothing to do with distance moved.

 

[Arcker123]

No I'm not, this has been my main argument from the start.

That just isn't true.

It doesn't mean Character A is dumb, in a lot of cases it just proves Character A being largely faster then bullets doesn't actually make sense.

For example: Character B could perform a hypersonic+ feat (calced) by dodging Character A's gunfire. Character A could see this but then believe using guns is still going to work against Character B. This would imply (In a good amount of situations) that Character B didn't actually preform a hypersonic+ feat

The speed of the shooter was not mentioned at all. You adding that bit is just changing the argument.

 

[Arkenis]

Swinging a sword still wouldn't be moving 6 meters (generally).

I can probably find several calcs where it would... especially with several swings or when the arm is included in the swing.

This literally has nothing to do with distance moved.

bounds are a form of movement, so it does.

 

[Vzearr]

I can probably find several calcs where it would... especially with several swings or when the arm is included in the swing.

And I could fine several where it wouldn't. This point doesn't really matter to much imo.

That just isn't true.

It doesn't mean Character A is dumb, in a lot of cases it just proves Character A being largely faster then bullets doesn't actually make sense.

For example: Character B could perform a hypersonic+ feat (calced) by dodging Character A's gunfire. Character A could see this but then believe using guns is still going to work against Character B. This would imply (In a good amount of situations) that Character B didn't actually preform a hypersonic+ feat

The speed of the shooter was not mentioned at all. You adding that bit is just changing the argument.

Depends how much faster they're compared to the guns. If its a rate where using guns would be an inconvenience I'd consider it outlier-ish (of-course including consistency).

Deadpool fights Deathstroke. Deadpool gets a calc where he's 5x faster then bullets, he uses guns but no bullets land on Deathstroke whilst Deadpool is losing the fight. At that point its an inconvenience, and would be an outlier.

This thread was meant to be a general thread, with multiple scenarios, if you only wanted to address that one comment then that's my mistake.

 

[Arcker123]

And I could fine several where it wouldn't. This point doesn't really matter to much imo.


This thread was meant to be a general thread, with multiple scenarios, if you only wanted to address that one comment then that's my mistake.

Okie Dokie.

In the interest of not making this a pissing contest, this will be my last post. I've proven the point which was my only grievance I care enough to comment on.

 

[Antoniofer]

This issue generally resolves with by identifying the number of feats vs the number of feats, as we typically do. Character may use firearms to compensate range, and not necessary because of their speed; it may also works against character that slighlty faster than the bullets, than even when they have deflected bullets in the past (or may theorcally do so), they may be overwhelmed by the sheer number of projectiles.

Of course, there's a limit to this reasoning, one thing is using Supersonic speed projectiles to succefully to keep up with a Supersonic+ entity and another is to keep up with a High Hypersonic being; if you see the HH being struggling, then this turns into a anti-feat for the fastest guy (whenever the anti-feat is consistent of not is up to debate). Take into account that when deciding feats vs anti-feats does not depends of the number of calculations, as people will often dismiss potential anti-feats, much less calculate them (those cases are only common when that turns to be a feat for someone else).

As recommendation, I would avoid calculating scenes when some clearly struggles with the projectiles (assuming it is not completely overwhelmed by numbers): See Polnareff for example, guy was sweating blood to keep up by a lightspeed enemy, so to defeat he used some cheap trick to catch up the Stand; then people calculated his final attack against the SoL enemy and got like x7 SoL (don't remember the exact number, just take it as general example). Don't you think that if Polnareff would be that fast he would have not struggle against the enemy to begin with?

 

[Metalballrun]

See Polnareff for example

And I would also recommend avoiding verses like these in the first place. The last time I and some others brought up this same scenario we got told to quit VSBW.

On another note, you may want to also look at the angle of WIS (or artist-induced-stupidty?). There are a lot of feats that end up giving really high results compared to the intended speed that is seen everywhere else in a setting. Commonly, dodging projectiles at super close range or blocking them, may end up making the dodging/blocking character several times above the speed of the projectile. Yet they still end up struggling to that very same type of projectile, even getting tagged. It's counterintuitive unless there are other reasons stated that makes said projectile difficult to evade.

Might not be the most correct example, but the case with JJK comes to mind with lots of calcs putting Yuji several times mach speed for dodging Piercing Blood. Yet we ended up with the current speed ratings we can see in the profiles after much deliberation.

It's also very common in martial arts stories for characters to dodge attacks at point blank range, only to struggle continuously against the same attacks. It's clear in these cases that authors think they're portraying how the characters involved are relative in speed, but calculations may end up getting different results.

Of course, this isn't always the case. Such scenes can be used to portray how much faster a certain character is. You can essentially notice the difference based on how the feats are presented.

 

[CloverDragon03]

My sentiments pretty much echo those above. This is a wholly case-by-case thing that we can’t exactly put a blanket rule on whether or not the scenarios you bring up qualify as anti-feats

 

[Arkenis]

dodging projectiles at super close range or blocking them, may end up making the dodging/blocking character several times above the speed of the projectile

This isn't allowed anymore iirc due to it being a way to exaggerate the dodging of the feat

Might not be the most correct example, but the case with JJK comes to mind with lots of calcs putting Yuji several times mach speed for dodging Piercing Blood. Yet we ended up with the current speed ratings we can see in the profiles after much deliberation.

Also due to those calcs being done wrong and also cuz the verse has an extreme cap on speed later on in the series.

 

[Vzearr]

My sentiments pretty much echo those above. This is a wholly case-by-case thing that we can’t exactly put a blanket rule on whether or not the scenarios you bring up qualify as anti-feats

The thing is, I'm talking about whether or not a character using a weapon is grounds to say that character isn't actually faster then bullets. KLOL506 says it isn't.

Like for example: Two characters who are comparable. Character A and B. Character B dodges Character A's bullets. Character A is physically 5x faster then his own bullets (calced) and so is character B. Would it make any sense for Character A, in a close range fight to use his bullets when he's comparable to Character B without them but with them he isn't? Seems like grounds for the calc of character A being 5x faster then bullets to be an outlier.

KLOL506 would disagree with the sentiment above due to the "rule of cool" and versatility. Would that be a correct rejection?

 

[Arkenis]

Like for example: Two characters who are comparable. Character A and B. Character B dodges Character A's bullets. Character A is physically 5x faster then his own bullets (calced) and so is character B. Would it make any sense for Character A, in a close range fight to use his bullets when he's comparable to Character B without them but with them he isn't? Seems like grounds for the calc of character A being 5x faster then bullets to be an outlier.

It makes complete sense when you take into account the use of guns at such a high speed fight, they are no longer being used to blitz the target, it is now being used as a tactic to throw the target off or distract them, make them use up energy to dodge or block shots, allow them to use up or damage their own arsenal.

A good example in how ninjas in Naruto will throw kunais and shurikens in fights, they aren't using them cause they think it'll kill, its used for distraction, make the ninja use up their weapons to block, distract them from something else the thrower is doing. It can be an endless of different uses honestly.

 

[Vzearr]

It makes complete sense when you take into account the use of guns at such a high speed fight, they are no longer being used to blitz the target, it is now being used as a tactic to throw the target off or distract them, make them use up energy to dodge or block shots, allow them to use up or damage their own arsenal.

This is just a heavy assumption based on rare events. I suppose it'd be better for me to link examples though. Sorry.

A good example in how ninjas in Naruto will throw kunais and shurikens in fights, they aren't using them cause they think it'll kill, its used for distraction, make the ninja use up their weapons to block, distract them from something else the thrower is doing. It can be an endless of different uses honestly.

This is different to using a gun.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There is too much case by case for feats like this, but "Calling superhuman feats outliers just because they held a gun" is way too much sternness.

First of all, there are a lot of characters with feats that portray them as being faster than bullets and simply passing all of them as outliers or the numerous scaling chains based on a once time instance is whack. And especially if someone was just trying to show how cool he was by firing a gun and literally outpacing his own bullet; that's just a blatant feat. And outlier in general is a very overused term that people within the battle boarding community use because they simply don't like giving characters higher statistics ratings despite how borderline blatant that someone actually did a feat is. That's not to say outliers aren't a thing since plenty of long running series have a lot of inconsistencies and what not or have a "Anyone fighting anyone" despite in canon gaps in power levels. But the word should be used sparingly rather than frequently.

Now, of course there are verses where everyone using a gun is the most common fight scene in the verse; especially most FPS verses, War movie verses, and pretty much most historical war verses and some sci-fi verses. I can understand it's iffy for most of the cast to be faster than bullets in those settings since a protagonist in those settings would often break the balance of those verse settings. And if there was a random Hypersonic speed feat that involves reacting to a sniper bullet (Especially if the comic panel gives the impression that it could be aim dodging), I would either default to aim dodging, point out the distance needed to move to react might be much less impressive, or pass it as an outlier if the results get too high.

Likewise, there do exist verses where bullets aren't just regular bullets. Some Sci-Fi verses have bullets made of these mystical properties and much faster than normal bullets. And there also exist magic users firing magic bullets, which feats can get far more impressive. But either way, physically outpacing a bullet is a feat and simply holding a gun is hardly an anti-feat. So KLOL is generally right here.

 

[Vzearr]

But either way, physically outpacing a bullet is a feat and simply holding a gun is hardly and anti-feat.

I feel as if you're undermining it. Holding a gun isn't the problem. Using the gun, consistently, and as your main weapon during (close range) fights, even though you're calced to be massively faster then it is just weird. Its especially weird when you use it on opponents comparable to you knowing they're just going to dodge it. It makes it incredibly contradictory.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I feel as if you're undermining it. Holding a gun isn't the problem. Using the gun, consistently, and as your main weapon during (close range) fights, even though you're calced to be massively faster then it is just weird. Its especially weird when you use it on opponents comparable to you knowing they're just going to dodge it. It makes it incredibly contradictory.

You mean like Spawn, Lobo, and Shadow the Hedgehog? All of whom used bullets often though the 3rd was limited to one game. And all of them are consistently much faster than any bullet.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

You mean like Spawn, Lobo, and Shadow the Hedgehog? All of whom used bullets often though the 3rd was limited to one game. And all of them are consistently much faster than any bullet.

Doom Slayer is another example of this as he uses guns not because they're more effective than his own attacks but because it's both what he's used to using before he got God powers and because he wants to make the demons suffer more by taking longer to kill them.

 

[Vzearr]

You mean like Spawn, Lobo, and Shadow the Hedgehog? All of whom used bullets often though the 3rd was limited to one game. And all of them are consistently much faster than any bullet.

Depends on the context of them using the gun, why they were using it ect.

 

[Arkenis]

It makes complete sense when you take into account the use of guns at such a high speed fight, they are no longer being used to blitz the target, it is now being used as a tactic to throw the target off or distract them, make them use up energy to dodge or block shots, allow them to use up or damage their own arsenal.

This is just a heavy assumption based on rare events. I suppose it'd be better for me to link examples though. Sorry.

.... Everything I listed occurs in fights.

This is different to using a gun.

It's of similar concept, guns used for several reasons not for blitzing only, kunais & shurikens used for several reasons not for killing only

 

[Vzearr]

.... Everything I listed occurs in fights.

It's of similar concept, guns used for several reasons not for blitzing only, kunais & shurikens used for several reasons not for killing only

Yes but when a gun is used and the character wants the bullets to land on his/her opponents would it be considered an outlier for those characters to be 10x faster then guns? Yes. I'm trying to argue that the "using a gun = not massively faster then gun" argument is applicable in some scenarios. Which KLOL506 disagrees with me on.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The thing is, I'm talking about whether or not a character using a weapon is grounds to say that character isn't actually faster then bullets. KLOL506 says it isn't.

Like for example: Two characters who are comparable. Character A and B. Character B dodges Character A's bullets. Character A is physically 5x faster then his own bullets (calced) and so is character B. Would it make any sense for Character A, in a close range fight to use his bullets when he's comparable to Character B without them but with them he isn't? Seems like grounds for the calc of character A being 5x faster then bullets to be an outlier.

KLOL506 would disagree with the sentiment above due to the "rule of cool" and versatility. Would that be a correct rejection?

I would in fact say that simply using a weapon isn’t grounds to say that on its own. You pretty much remove all context by going with that approach

 

[Antoniofer]

Don't think that merely wielding firearms would suggests the character cause less damage or is slower than bullets, as there are other reasons for the character to use weapons (like compensating range, or perhaps his job involve being a cop and he requires the use of a pistol); however, the moment the character relies too much on them, like not being as efficient in combat without its firearms, then we have reasons to believe it may not be as fast as bullets. Of course, always using firearms means that speed ratings beyond certain threashold could be considered questionable (the higher the speed, the more troubles one will have convincing why common firearms are still being used against the high tier of the verse when those are HH).

 

[Planck69]

I hold the same sentiments as those brought up in this thread; this is all case-by-case and there's no catch all standard for it.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

I could just reiterate what most of my fellow CGMs said here but I won't for the sake of not repeating, I simply don't agree with OP's points while the points made by KLOL, Meudeus, etc make much more sense.

 

[KLOL506]

I believe at this point there's been near-unanimous rejection of OP's thread from several CGMs and staff. It should honestly be closed, given that there's no chance of this passing anymore.

@Planck69 If you would be so kind...

 

[Planck69]

Closing this