Upgrading the Swampfire's Level

[Gendolfgg1]

Swampfire is escaped from the Null Void portal - an obvious feat that requires a new analysis.

So, we know that the portals in Ben 10 work like regular portals, which you can go out and enter at any time (it seems that there is no gravitational influence). But there are also exceptions, such as Professor Paradox's portal, which exhibits all the effects of a black hole (stretches objects into a hole, as in reality), so the Professor is dragged into the Event Horizon when he overcomes the portal. Obviously, he will not be able to get back (in the form of an ordinary person).

So, the portal into which the Swampfire was sucked has exactly the same properties, because there is obviously a huge gravity inside the portal, which is why Ben gets into a space-time tunnel and into a light cone from which he cannot get out. This is completely consistent with the effects of the black hole on this wiki, so it needs to be taken into account.

Well, after that, he transformed into a Swampfire, it is easy to get out of the portal solely by physical force, ignoring gravity and a space-time tunnel with a light cone (gravity is so strong that it sucks in photons). Everything I have described is an obvious feat of overcoming a black hole, so the Swampfire level should be raised to the appropriate level.

AGREE:
DISAGREE:
NEUTRAL:

 

[Gendolfgg1]

BUMP

 

[DemonicDude]

Since Null Void is accepted as 1-B and Swampfire destroyed Null Void Projector with pure Strength so Swampfire will now be 1-B

 

[Gendolfgg1]

Since Null Void is accepted as 1-B and Swampfire destroyed Null Void Projector with pure Strength so Swampfire will now be 1-B

Well, that makes sense.

 

[Reiner04]

Since Null Void is accepted as 1-B and Swampfire destroyed Null Void Projector with pure Strength so Swampfire will now be 1-B

Agree with this.

 

[Reiner04]

Should we scale Swampfire to boundless as he nuked self reference engine with his terrible fart?

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

I'm not entirely sure that these two scenes have a connection with each other. Previously, I would have said that 5-A for the average Alien Ben was outlier, but now 5-B is the level of the typical Alien Ben.

So, I don't know, neutral.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

I'm not entirely sure that these two scenes have a connection with each other. Previously, I would have said that 5-A for the average Alien Ben was outlier, but now 5-B is the level of the typical Alien Ben.

So, I don't know, neutral.

What scenes are you talking about?

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

What scenes are you talking about?

Ben fall in Null Void and Paradox fall in Black Hole

 

[Gendolfgg1]

Ben fall in Null Void and Paradox fall in Black Hole

I was trying to convey that the same event horizon effect occurs in these scenes, which meets the criteria of our wiki about black holes

 

[zaraus]

I'm not sure what to scale this to.

 

[DemonicDude]

Based off of visuals so we ignore the functions of machine, nope.
Disagree with this thread.


Event horizon took place due to Chronologger.

The Chronologger
Teleporter Pod
and Null Void Projector

All three are completely different.

Quartz Crystals were used for Chronologger and Teleporter Pod is Highbreed invention. (It was used by Aggregor and it breaks Reality)

Null Void Projector is Plumber Tech used to enter Null Void which appears to be Red meanwhile.
When it comes to Chronologger all the objects were stretched.... showing space time effect. (Which are two DIFFERENT things)
Not the same effect, of course both will have gravity but Chronologger shatters reality and Null Void is just a portal to another dimension)

 

[Gendolfgg1]

Based off of visuals so we ignore the functions of machine, nope.
Disagree with this thread.


Event horizon took place due to Chronologger.

The Chronologger
Teleporter Pod
and Null Void Projector

All three are completely different.

Quartz Crystals were used for Chronologger and Teleporter Pod is Highbreed invention. (It was used by Aggregor and it breaks Reality)

Null Void Projector is Plumber Tech used to enter Null Void which appears to be Red meanwhile.
When it comes to Chronologger all the objects were stretched.... showing space time effect. (Which are two DIFFERENT things)
Not the same effect, of course both will have gravity but Chronologger shatters reality and Null Void is just a portal to another dimension)

I mean, both portals have the effect of an event horizon, because inside these portals there is a black hole that forms a space-time tunnel and a light cone, which meets the criteria of a black hole on our wiki. If it was an "ordinary portal", then obviously Ben would be able to easily get out of it back, as they used to do with other ordinary portals. But, obviously, this is not the case, Ben is specifically dumped into this portal so that he cannot get back out due to the huge gravity of the black hole. And Swampfire ignores the light cone and overcomes the gravity of the space-time tunnel and gets out of this portal BACK (as we know, it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to get back out of the black hole, but the Alien does it)

 

[Gendolfgg1]

BUMP

 

[SeijiSetto]

Y'don't get durability from surviving being in a black hole.
Quoting the Black Hole page you linked:

As such, since saying that a characters durability is infinite is usually an enormous outlier, surviving a singularity can extremely seldom be taken as a durability feat. It can only be understood as a feat for resistance against black holes.

Additionally neither of these really look or act like black holes. Paradox's one sucks things in and he says it has "an event horizon" but it's described as a "time tunnel" and emits light, so.

The example of the Null Void one is also emitting light, it's just a portal with a strong pull once you're in it considering Gwen and Kevin are standing next to it seemingly fine.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

Y'don't get durability from surviving being in a black hole.
Quoting the Black Hole page you linked:

I know, but this topic is not about durability, but about AP.

Additionally neither of these really look or act like black holes. Paradox's one sucks things in and he says it has "an event horizon" but it's described as a "time tunnel" and emits light, so.

The example of the Null Void one is also emitting light, it's just a portal with a strong pull once you're in it considering Gwen and Kevin are standing next to it seemingly fine.

To absorb light, you need a very powerful gravity, right? However, gravitational forces decrease with increasing distance to the portal/black hole, and many times, so this explains why the characters standing near the Null Void portal did not feel anything. But it is inside the portal that gravity is huge, so the portal "works like a portal" and it is this gravity that the Swampfire overcomes.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

pmub?

 

[SeijiSetto]

To absorb light, you need a very powerful gravity, right? However, gravitational forces decrease with increasing distance to the portal/black hole

This is true.

so this explains why the characters standing near the Null Void portal did not feel anything.

This is not true.
An actual black hole would still be violently pulling things into itself when you're so close to it, a couple meters difference at that kinda closeness means absolutely nothing.

Say this was valid — what exactly is this CRT proposing? What do you want to upgrade Swampfire to? You haven't actually said a new tier or anything for him.

 

[Reiner04]

Atbest you can get something by calcing the force with which nullvoid portal broke that metal rod but Swampfire will already be Class P due to recent (or old but I'm not getting time to apply) thread. So that'd be entirely reductant.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

Say this was valid — what exactly is this CRT proposing? What do you want to upgrade Swampfire to? You haven't actually said a new tier or anything for him.

Well, look, our wiki has already discussed the topic of the AP of a black hole, but I have not seen a clear answer to what level it has. There are several options:

1) 3-A, because the gravity inside the black hole is infinite? accordingly, an infinite force is needed to get out of it (superluminal velocity is not taken into account for an object that has mass)

2) The level of a Large star (because singularities are formed by the masses of several Suns)

3) The level of the Solar system (If the black hole is small)

Yes, I suggest raising the AP level of Swampfire to one of these options, because it overcame gravity INSIDE the black hole.

 

[SeijiSetto]

1) 3-A, because the gravity inside the black hole is infinite? accordingly, an infinite force is needed to get out of it (superluminal velocity is not taken into account for an object that has mass)

Not true. The point at the very center of the black hole — the singularity — has infinite gravity, but being literally any non-zero distance away from that makes that not the case. Additionally, quoting:

The tidal forces would become infinite and he or she would be destroyed no matter how high his or her durability is. As such, since saying that a characters durability is infinite is usually an enormous outlier, surviving a singularity can extremely seldom be taken as a durability feat.

Much of the same goes for AP.

2) The level of a Large star (because singularities are formed by the masses of several Suns)

Surviving a black hole of a given size would not scale you to the energy yield needed to create it. Black holes are basically gravity+deconstruction hax with how they rip things apart.

3) The level of the Solar system (If the black hole is small)

See above points.

All of this would be worth arguing over if the thing was ACTUALLY a black hole, but as I said in my last post, this is not the case.

Additionally neither of these really look or act like black holes. [...]

tl;dr your reasoning for this being an upgrade wouldn't work even if this was a real black hole, and more importantly, it isn't.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

Not true. The point at the very center of the black hole — the singularity — has infinite gravity, but being literally any non-zero distance away from that makes that not the case. Additionally, quoting:

That's true, but Ben was pulled into the singularity at that moment. Is there no infinite gravity in that tunnel?

Much of the same goes for AP.

Oh, is that so? I just didn't see the AP guidance in the black hole article. I've only seen about durability

Surviving a black hole of a given size would not scale you to the energy yield needed to create it. Black holes are basically gravity+deconstruction hax with how they rip things apart.

I agree with you, but overcoming its gravity is something else entirely. Imagine how a proton flies out of the nucleus of an atom. It's the same thing.
Yes, it's gravity's Hax, but so is AP in a sense, because a black hole has energy.

All of this would be worth arguing over if the thing was ACTUALLY a black hole, but as I said in my last post, this is not the case.

Yes, it is obvious that this is not exactly a black hole in the sense in which we usually perceive it, but somehow this portal inside itself has a huge gravity, sufficient to absorb light and sufficient to form a space-time tunnel. Will you explain what you can give for such overcoming?

tl;dr your reasoning for this being an upgrade wouldn't work even if this was a real black hole, and more importantly, it isn't.

I'm sorry if I'm so persistent and not really knowledgeable about the topics of this wiki, I'm just relatively new to it

 

[SeijiSetto]

That's true, but Ben was pulled into the singularity at that moment. Is there no infinite gravity in that tunnel?

It's a portal to a different dimension. You need to prove that it has a singularity, you can't just assume that's the case with no evidence.

Oh, is that so? I just didn't see the AP guidance in the black hole article. I've only seen about durability

It's not explicitly written in the article but resisting a black hole's pull is iffy AP wise. Y'could (in theory) find the average (geometric mean) gravity between the start and end points (if the character moved a given distance) and do some force * distance stuff for work but it's a little jank.

I agree with you, but overcoming its gravity is something else entirely. Imagine how a proton flies out of the nucleus of an atom. It's the same thing.
Yes, it's gravity's Hax, but so is AP in a sense, because a black hole has energy.

I do not really see what relevance this has, in all honesty. It changes nothing about my statement of "pulling away from the gravity of a black hole =/= you scale to its energy yield".
Much in the same way jumping away from Earth's gravity does not make you 5-B.

Yes, it is obvious that this is not exactly a black hole in the sense in which we usually perceive it, but somehow this portal inside itself has a huge gravity, sufficient to absorb light and sufficient to form a space-time tunnel. Will you explain what you can give for such overcoming?

It's not absorbing light. There's literally beams of it shining out from the edge of the portal. The entire inside of the thing is bathed in light, and it forming a space-time tunnel would actually further discount it being a black hole.
It is not a black hole.

At best you could get LS via finding the force it would take to snap the metal rod and then say Swampfire had to overcome that pulling force to climb out but I believe Reiner said Swampfire would be Class P anyway via other feats so it's largely redundant.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

It's a portal to a different dimension. You need to prove that it has a singularity, you can't just assume that's the case with no evidence.


It's not explicitly written in the article but resisting a black hole's pull is iffy AP wise. Y'could (in theory) find the average (geometric mean) gravity between the start and end points (if the character moved a given distance) and do some force * distance stuff for work but it's a little jank.


I do not really see what relevance this has, in all honesty. It changes nothing about my statement of "pulling away from the gravity of a black hole =/= you scale to its energy yield".
Much in the same way jumping away from Earth's gravity does not make you 5-B.


It's not absorbing light. There's literally beams of it shining out from the edge of the portal. The entire inside of the thing is bathed in light, and it forming a space-time tunnel would actually further discount it being a black hole.
It is not a black hole.

At best you could get LS via finding the force it would take to snap the metal rod and then say Swampfire had to overcome that pulling force to climb out but I believe Reiner said Swampfire would be Class P anyway via other feats so it's largely redundant.

OK, thanks for the time, maybe my point of view is not correct regarding this wiki. It's just that I perceive this particular portal in the same way as the phenomenon on the scan:

 

[Reiner04]

Our standards for realistic black holes are very strict; something like a nullvoid projector is nowhere near sufficient to meet the criteria.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

Our standards for realistic black holes are very strict; something like a nullvoid projector is nowhere near sufficient to meet the criteria.

Well, again, this particular example differs from all other portals, because only this portal shows a space-time tunnel through which Ben is flying and only from it it is impossible to get back out, but from all the others it is possible.

 

[Gendolfgg1]

okay, since this thread has been sorted out, I don't think it will lead to anything, so it can be closed