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The Entei thing is UNBELIEVABLE PIS since the Unown literally LET him tag them (and they were just floating around anyway).
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Unown's getting the nerf bat in -Speed-
- Thread starter Fllflourine
- Start date
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DarkLK is the visionary who designed our tiering system, and also understands it best. He simplified his allegory to make it easier for us to understand.
I trust his judgement regarding that the fundamental standards for moving inside and outside of timeless voids work very differently, and the second and third points still apply even for characters that originate outside of regular continuums.
We had a long discussion about this issue, decided upon the most logical system, and cannot change it back on a whim.
I trust his judgement regarding that the fundamental standards for moving inside and outside of timeless voids work very differently, and the second and third points still apply even for characters that originate outside of regular continuums.
We had a long discussion about this issue, decided upon the most logical system, and cannot change it back on a whim.
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That said, if characters have been proven to transcend linear time, they can obviously be rated as having immeasurable speed.
It would be better if you politely ask DarkLK about more easily understood specifications however.
It would be better if you politely ask DarkLK about more easily understood specifications however.
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While it's true Unown's exist in a timeless place, literally every instance they're shown in any Pokemon media outside that dimension they're clearly not that fast and are frequently tagged.
If they're infinite , Mewtwo, Darkrai. Deoxys, Weather Trio, Zygarde, Yveltal, Xerneas, Diancie, etc and more also infinite.
If they're infinite , Mewtwo, Darkrai. Deoxys, Weather Trio, Zygarde, Yveltal, Xerneas, Diancie, etc and more also infinite.
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Avoiding Dialga and Palkias fight in their dimension would be something.Zensum said:
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"DarkLK is the visionary who designed our tiering system, and also understands it best. He simplified his allegory to make it easier for us to understand."
This is rather over the top, no?
I don't think we should treat any user or member, be them regulars or long-time staff, as infallible and automatically superior to others. I disliked his analogy because of how simplistic and flawed it was.
"I trust his judgement regarding that the fundamental standards for moving inside and outside of timeless voids work very differently"
It does, but not in the way he described. Furthermore, there's a difference between characters who just move in a timeless void once like people in Dragon Ball Super vs Characters who literally exist before there was time or live in a dimension devoid of time.
"We had a long discussion about this issue, decided upon the most logical system, and cannot change it back on a whim."
Nobody is asking for a complete reversion. Just that being extreme on one end is no better than being extreme on the opposite end.
"That said, if characters have been proven to transcend linear time"
Predating the creation / birth of time is a perfect way of proving this.
This is rather over the top, no?
I don't think we should treat any user or member, be them regulars or long-time staff, as infallible and automatically superior to others. I disliked his analogy because of how simplistic and flawed it was.
"I trust his judgement regarding that the fundamental standards for moving inside and outside of timeless voids work very differently"
It does, but not in the way he described. Furthermore, there's a difference between characters who just move in a timeless void once like people in Dragon Ball Super vs Characters who literally exist before there was time or live in a dimension devoid of time.
"We had a long discussion about this issue, decided upon the most logical system, and cannot change it back on a whim."
Nobody is asking for a complete reversion. Just that being extreme on one end is no better than being extreme on the opposite end.
"That said, if characters have been proven to transcend linear time"
Predating the creation / birth of time is a perfect way of proving this.
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@Requiem
Since when? The anime is PIS, the games show them in 0 cutscenes other than the Sinjoh Ruins and I don't recall anything from the manga.
Besides, Unown are at their best when in a large group. Individual ones are far far less impressive.
Since when? The anime is PIS, the games show them in 0 cutscenes other than the Sinjoh Ruins and I don't recall anything from the manga.
Besides, Unown are at their best when in a large group. Individual ones are far far less impressive.
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When?Antvasima said:
From my experience, they either treat it as a demonstration of a character's cosmic / higher-dimensional status or don't treat it as anything at all.
Just because Pokémon doesn't appear to follow this deeply doesn't mean it would apply to something like Dormammu who is explictly outside of time.
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The manga, Mewtwo fought a horde of them, he also went on to fight Deoxys, Darkrai, Zygarde, and the others mentioned scale off the people he fought.
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Honestly, I liked our old definition of Infinite speed for the stuff Matt's saying.
There of course needs to be a case-by-case analysis of it, but it doesn't feel right to write it off altogether.
There of course needs to be a case-by-case analysis of it, but it doesn't feel right to write it off altogether.
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Oh yeah now I remember (I made a post about that for God sakes OvO)
Still, we decided that was an incredible outlier/PIS for Mewtwo and its only one feat compared to the rest.
Still, we decided that was an incredible outlier/PIS for Mewtwo and its only one feat compared to the rest.
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So far half of Unown's scenes are PIS then.
And then there's the episode in sinnoh, unown's were featured in that and pretty sure Aipom tagged several pissed ones.
And then there's the episode in sinnoh, unown's were featured in that and pretty sure Aipom tagged several pissed ones.
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A similar thing happened with Acausality.The Everlasting said:
The major argument for Resistance to the Grandfather Paradox not being Acausality was the fact that there are movies and series like Back to the Future where normal people resist it.
However, that doesn't mean that it isn't a feat of Acausality when it is depicted as a feat, it just means that Back to the Future isn't thinking too deep about this stuff.
Marty McFly not being erased from existence instantly the moment the past is altered doesn't mean that Capricorn Shura resisting time itself inflicting causality on him because he had died in the past yet remaining alive because of Athena's protection isn't a feat.
It just means that the former example is just fictional nonsense.
Likewise, we have to do a case-by-case analysis on TImeless Characters / Locations as well.
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Like it or not, while DarkLK is not infallible, he is our by far most knowledgeable member regarding how his system fundamentally works.
I respect his knowledge and insight considerably more than I respect the ability to be relentlessly argumentative. As such, I would appreciate if you attempt to get information from him before you propose any changes.
Regardless whether the characters originate within a timeless void, the same principles that I mentioned earlier tend to apply for most of fiction. While I agree that the logic that you mentioned ca apply in some cases, it should be mentioned or shown within the story that it is treated that way. Othervise we get back to different systems with different rules.
I respect his knowledge and insight considerably more than I respect the ability to be relentlessly argumentative. As such, I would appreciate if you attempt to get information from him before you propose any changes.
Regardless whether the characters originate within a timeless void, the same principles that I mentioned earlier tend to apply for most of fiction. While I agree that the logic that you mentioned ca apply in some cases, it should be mentioned or shown within the story that it is treated that way. Othervise we get back to different systems with different rules.
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"As such, I would appreciate if you attempt to get information from him before you propose any changes."
Then I will politely ask him and discuss it with him.
"Regardless whether the characters originate within a timeless void, the same principles that I mentioned earlier tend to apply for most of fiction"
But wasn't this the same argument used for Acausality and the changes were rejected?
"While I agree that the logic that you mentioned can apply in some cases, it should be mentioned or shown within the story that it is treated that way"
So you agree to a case-by-case analysis rather than generalization one way or another? That's all I'm asking to be applied.
Then I will politely ask him and discuss it with him.
"Regardless whether the characters originate within a timeless void, the same principles that I mentioned earlier tend to apply for most of fiction"
But wasn't this the same argument used for Acausality and the changes were rejected?
"While I agree that the logic that you mentioned can apply in some cases, it should be mentioned or shown within the story that it is treated that way"
So you agree to a case-by-case analysis rather than generalization one way or another? That's all I'm asking to be applied.
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The anti-feats if anything. Unown in lore having infinite speed and even avoiding Dialga and Palkia fighting should be beyond any PIS related thing that comes their way.
That also seems like PIS since Aipom literally just evolved and pokemon who evolve and do something a second after are there for spotlight. Plus again, we need to evaluate how good or how weak the Unown separately are. In other words, bigger the group = more impressive. Smaller group, less impressive.
That also seems like PIS since Aipom literally just evolved and pokemon who evolve and do something a second after are there for spotlight. Plus again, we need to evaluate how good or how weak the Unown separately are. In other words, bigger the group = more impressive. Smaller group, less impressive.
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Literally over half its feats are anti-feats then and thats just the top of my head, there's likely far more cases opposed to just those.
If we go by that logic, Regigigas should be 2-C for choking Dialga and Palkia.
If we go by that logic, Regigigas should be 2-C for choking Dialga and Palkia.
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Okay, thank you.Antvasima said:
I will try talking to him either on his Message Wall or via PMs.
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I agree with the OP.
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Regigigas is a horrible example seeing as in another manga Dialga stomped it very easily in a matter of seconds.
And the Unown don't have large showings like them anyway. 2 showings support infinite speed while one, which was agreed on being a total outlier, doesn't.
And the Unown don't have large showings like them anyway. 2 showings support infinite speed while one, which was agreed on being a total outlier, doesn't.
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Exactly, sure Unown's weren't fodderized in seconds by Dialga and Palkia but in other media they get thriwn around even when in groups and Unown arent the only mons to have feats like going against the gods.
In fact that feat is the odd one out, not the others.
Edit: And actually there's 3 things suggesting they don't just from what I can remember. 3>2.
In fact that feat is the odd one out, not the others.
Edit: And actually there's 3 things suggesting they don't just from what I can remember. 3>2.
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And in all those instances it can very much be PIS depending on how many and if they were individually tagged, not as a group. Especially the Entei one the OP mentioned.
Plus, in all those instances with the Unown, im highly certain they weren't pushed to use their true capabilities anyway other than avoiding Dialga and Palkia. Even in the 3rd movie their capabilities are casual.
Plus, in all those instances with the Unown, im highly certain they weren't pushed to use their true capabilities anyway other than avoiding Dialga and Palkia. Even in the 3rd movie their capabilities are casual.
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So for you're chalking up half it's showings to being PIS, you know how many manga there Are? I could likely very well find more examples of them being tagged, so far there's only really one thing going for infinite Unown while there's several times that amount going against it.
And two Instances, maybe 3 are in groups.
And two Instances, maybe 3 are in groups.
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Well that's just the manga however. And I don't think the Unown appear in too much manga.
But like I said, it depends on the group amount. If anything, since they naturally exist in a higher dimension as their setting, why wouldn't any anti-speed instance be considered PIS just like for any other higher-dimensional character?
But like I said, it depends on the group amount. If anything, since they naturally exist in a higher dimension as their setting, why wouldn't any anti-speed instance be considered PIS just like for any other higher-dimensional character?
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Basically.
In fact, the Unown literally LET Entei hit them because of Molly and they were floating around not trying to run away anyway. That's not exactly tagging them.
In fact, the Unown literally LET Entei hit them because of Molly and they were floating around not trying to run away anyway. That's not exactly tagging them.
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Because evaluating things on a case by case basis?
Yes yet there's more examples of them getting tagged than just movie 3, in fact there's several times as many showings of them not being infinite as theyre is of them being so.
And on a side note, why would being in a group increase their speed opposed to just their ap? Ignoring several of these instances actually being groups.
Yes yet there's more examples of them getting tagged than just movie 3, in fact there's several times as many showings of them not being infinite as theyre is of them being so.
And on a side note, why would being in a group increase their speed opposed to just their ap? Ignoring several of these instances actually being groups.
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I don't remember that ever being the case other than what I've noted, but you know my answer again.
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Mewtwo, Entei and Aipom all tagged them you can say it is PIS but that's already more examples then there is of infinite speed and even though it may be an outlier for Mewtwo, no one said the speed aspect was, only the AP is.
And then there's the fact this is just from me going off the top if my head, there's likely even more instances too and at that point could it really be called PIS if all but one showing isnt infinite?
And then there's the fact this is just from me going off the top if my head, there's likely even more instances too and at that point could it really be called PIS if all but one showing isnt infinite?
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But what other instances are there with Unown at all?
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I feel like this divergence onto whether or not movement in void feats should be treated as either a speed or ability feat on a case by case basis or not is kind of irrelevant. Because even if we were to start treating this as a case by case thing it's very obvious in the case of Unowns that they fall firmly into the "This is just an ability" category.
The revision was pretty much exactly for things like this. Cases where a character moves in a void and then gets tagged by non-infinite speed characters 24/7 once out of that void. The Unown have the exact same problem.
The revision was pretty much exactly for things like this. Cases where a character moves in a void and then gets tagged by non-infinite speed characters 24/7 once out of that void. The Unown have the exact same problem.
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pokemon is like 80% PIS, i could give you a lot of istances where arceus or any legendary pokemon are tagged by normal pokemon
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But why wouldnt it just be PIS just so they can be, well, used in vs scenes at all? Like any other higher dimensional being?
If not for PIS, the Unown would be blitzing everything constantly and the only time they can really get away w/ this without being effected is in the Darkrai movie.
If not for PIS, the Unown would be blitzing everything constantly and the only time they can really get away w/ this without being effected is in the Darkrai movie.
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Well there's those 3 i keep naming off, and i can almost gurantee they wont be infinite.
In Pokemon Adventures D&P, chapter 384, Unown appears in that too.
In Pokemon Adventures D&P, chapter 384, Unown appears in that too.
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Yes exceot literally every scene except that one has them infinitely slower.
If it was once or twice sure, but every time?
Something's clearly wrong and besides, not like mons far below Dialga and such has combated them.
If it was once or twice sure, but every time?
Something's clearly wrong and besides, not like mons far below Dialga and such has combated them.
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