Universe level: Attack Potency = Durability?

[DontTalk]

Something that was mentioned to me recently (and also once before) is that apparently many characters with Universe level (+) (likely that also goes for Multiverse level (+)) Attack Potency are ranked at durability equal to their AP, with the reasoning that they can survive the destruction of the universe they caused themselves.

Now with such a general reasoning technically all Universe level characters would have durability of the same degree as their AP (which many don't have at this point), which I personally believe to be very questionable.

If I would guess the reasoning behind it is that an attack that destroys the universe would also damage the user of it, since the user is part of the universe.

Now I don't think that, if it isn't shown that the characters actually have to tank the attack, it is a legitimate reasoning.

Since the characters can unleash such an attack I would believe they can control it enough to not tank their own attacks, no matter if it is destruction through a giant explosion or reality warping.


If it is decided whether or not this reasoning for stats is legitimate, I will do a second thread to discuss which profiles would be affected, but for now I would like to hear opinions.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with the above statements.

 

[A6colute]

Hmmm, that makes sense.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Same. Actually it makes sense cause how would we know if a universe level character can survive their own attacks? If anything, i agree with the above statements as well.

 

[KamiYasha]

I was thinking the same, my reasoning is that they need that Durability mainly because otherwise their body wouldn't be capable of generate such energy.

Unless is a suicide attack.

 

[Yamatohime]

I was thinking the same, my reasoning is that they need that Durability mainly because otherwise their body wouldn't be capable of generate such energy.
Unless is a suicide attack.

By this reasoning characters attack potency and durability can be determined by... Maximum travel speed of the said characters. For some of them...

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

@OP , your logia only correlates to hax individuals who are capable of avoiding destroying themselves along with the Universes but it cannot be applied to those who do so with pure physical might (such as Beerus if he ever gets a Universal feat).


Otherwise, I agree.

 

[DontTalk]

@TheMightyRegulator:

For Beerus it would also not apply in many cases in my opinion. If you take the shockwaves for example. They were the weakest in the epicenter, so that Beerus wouldn't have to tank them.

If he causes a omnidirectional explosion all around him he also wouldn't take his own blast, as the energy has the origin at his body and never effects it.

And since Dragonball characters can also control the way their ki moves doing an explosion outside the body and directing their own energy around themselfs is also not beyond them.


But you are right in that it doesn't go for all feats. I just say that it shouldn't be assumed per default, but only if the fiction made it clear that the character actually did that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we should probably make a distinction between glass cannon feats that do not automatically scale to durability, striking strength, and lifting strength, and those that do.

However, I am far too tired and dizzy to do so myself in my current state. If you wish you can talk in private with Lord Kavpeny about it. Maybe you could collaborate on writing one?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Ok. No problem.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Q from Star Trek can create/destroy timelines/alternate universes and he can survive big bang. He already showed all of it.

 

[KamiYasha]

I'm gonna bump this.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well, would a character busting a Universe with physical strength still have Universal dura? Or does this logic not apply anymore at these levels?

 

[OMillenium]

That would be ridiculous. Some people have suicidal universal attacks or they use some type of barrier/hax to protect themselves from the blast. Sometimes they use their speed to run away from the universe itself.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Well, would a character busting a Universe with physical strength still have Universal dura? Or does this logic not apply anymore at these levels?

Depends on how the feat was done and if it was explicitly stated that they actually tanked it due to the reality warping abilities prominent in these categories.

 

[Nickhf1]

Overall I can agree with this, But I would like to point something out, Say if you were to punch someone with the same amount of force you could generate, You could die depending where you striked him at, If that person had the equal amount of durability on each side of the body. Basically what I am saying is the durability of that person can differ depending on which part of the body. Hopefully I didn't sound stupid.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Well I don't personally buy that AP= durability, there are plenty of glass canons out there. And plenty of tanks as well (for whom, durability > AP). The categories are different because they're not the same, even if they have correlation. As such, I believe the stats should be assigned based on feats, rather than generalized assumption. If there's no feat for durability then assumption could be made

 

[DontTalk]

Well I don't personally buy that AP= durability.

You better don't, as that is absolutely not accepted. $ \text{AP} \nRightarrow \text{durability} $

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

If there's no feat for durability then, in my opinion, it should be left at unknown like we do the combat speed of the marvel top tiers.


@Nickhf1

Generally the durability of the individual is assumed to be for every part but if there is an area on the body weak to attacks then I assume it be placed or noted under weaknesses assuming it's not a glass canon case and onky a specific area has less durability.

 

[OMillenium]

^

Did you break?

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

^
Did you break?

...

 

[OMillenium]

Lol, sorry.

DontTalk had a post and it was an error for me.

Then your post showed up.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

I figured as much. I was just in a playful mood and couldn't resist. Feel free to ignore the post

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Well I don't personally buy that AP= durability.

You better don't, as that is absolutely not accepted.
$ \text{AP} \nRightarrow \text{durability} $

Aah that means we're on the same page??

 

[DontTalk]

Hopefully not just we're, but everyone. That is absolute standard to my knowledge. (there just was some uncertainty about the special case of universe destruction, hence this thread)

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Good good that's how it should be, we must not put AP = durability for any character without feats. I mean you have horrible glass canon like Genos....wait a moment why is Genos AP = durability? Isn't he the biggest example of glass canon in recent memory?

 

[DontTalk]

Good good that's how it should be, we must not put AP = durability for any character without feats. I mean you have horrible glass canon like Genos....wait a moment why is Genos AP = durability? Isn't he the biggest example of glass canon in recent memory?

The profile reasons that is because he took a beating of the Sea King, that Attack Potency wise should be as strong as Genos himself (the typical case for AP scaling back to characters and often not wrong). If that shouldn't be the case, as always: Make a thread on the content revision board.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Nah man too much work, but I agree with your thread.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

But. That wouldn't make most of character from universal and up basically glass cannons?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

But. That wouldn't make most of character from universal and up basically glass cannons?

better than assumptions. if they're not glass canon they better prove it

 

[OMillenium]

No, no.

This only works for universal terms. Unless the character is stated not to be on equal terms with their DC then their DC = Durability. Cause a universe can sometimes be the entirety of the fiction.

 

[BMHKain]

So, if AP doesn't equal Durability, what is the fine line of balance between the two concepts? Not trying to go off-topic, but I'm thinking of downgrading the characters I uploaded on this wiki so nobody would believe I play favorites (I really don't BTW.). So, does a fast character like Aiwhen of Wonderful World need physical power for things regarding weak but many hit combos? She is considered lightweight you know... Her Massively Hypersonic speed seems to fit as her moves are fast enough to dodge many moves of her verse. Not sure about her physical feats... What do you think?

 

[OMillenium]

NOOOOOOOOO


NO.


If they've fought people with equal DC or are on the same tier as other people with the same durability that's their durability.

 

[BMHKain]

NOOOOOOOOO

NO.


If they've fought people with equal DC or are on the same tier as other people with the same durability that's their durability.

Oh. I was trying to find an Idea for a BALANCED fight with what I uploaded is why I asked; that & with the exception of Durability, Wonderful World as a verse probably needs downgrading. However, I'm the only supporter right now, & I don't expect anyone else to be involved either. Dangit.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

But. That wouldn't make most of character from universal and up basically glass cannons?

Not necessarily. Some characters like The Creation Trio and top tiers of the Umineko Series are Conceptual entities giving them comparable durability by default.

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I understand Higher-Dimensional entities automatically have the same degree of infinity of AP and Durability as their dimensional ranking, yes.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

As far as I understand Higher-Dimensional entities automatically have the same degree of infinity of AP and Durability as their dimensional ranking, yes.

This is correct.

For instance, a 5-D character automatically has High 2-A durability and AP due to their dimensional status. However, this does not mean they're inherently equal to another 5-D character, just as a baby being 3-D does not give it equal power to a supernova.

 

[Aurasuke]

If I may add something, if a character has been shown to fight someone on with the same tier as they are, they could have been scaled to survive their own attacks if they actually showed themselves not wining the fight easily even if the other character didn't end up destroying the universe.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I agree with DontTalk's points here also.