Undertale verse is just 2-B, not 2-C

[Ricsi-viragosi]

How and which "fodder" you kill doesn't elect much change either, especially not for endings.

And regardless, you two are both abusing game mechanics for this (neither the number of monsters nor the "dialogue" are the same for Flowey as they were for Frisk), but you also assume that Flowey testing out each option was done with resets.

For all we know, like when he first killed himself and got back right to when he became self aware again, Flowey could have just gotten to the "ending" and then loaded a save.

I am still vehemently against these baseless calcs here.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Oh wait nvm, I forgot to recheck that.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

"I've read all the books and I've burned all the books."

And he made a different save file to do all of that, instead of reading them while doing the pacifist route and nit bothering to do it again after? Or just burning them while everyone dies?

Why would he make a reset for every minor action when a save and load can let him see what happens without zeroing all his progress?

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Ricsi The number of total possibilities is shorten from the original and now I'll be focusing on the number of Endings that Frisk created, which there is some more that wasn't pointed out yet.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

And he made a different save file to do all of that, instead of reading them while doing the pacifist route and nit bothering to do it again after? Or just burning them while everyone dies?

Why would he make a reset for every minor action when a save and load can let him see what happens without zeroing all his progress?

He could also read and burn them in the same timeline.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Honestly the possibilities calculated are the actual endings, since any ending is just a combination of them, I've multiplied them for a reason

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

And yet you can't prove that every possibility has a timeline of its own.

Killing a froggit or a vulkin will not give you different ending. Talking to some random will not help you. Buying and eating will not make changes.

At most you can take each possible ending and say those had a timeline of their own.

 

[StrymULTRA]

A possibility =/= timeline, I've just said that a timeline is a combination of possibilities

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

But you have no way to say what combination gets a new timeline.

The only thing that we can, at best, guess is that each reset gets you a new timeline. This already lacks proof, but it's accepted.

You can't, in any way, prove that there were more than 1000 resets. Flowey could have done everything he did with simple loading and saving, and Frisk doesn't have enough endings to get half that.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Ricsi You do make a good point, only specific monsters and the amount of monsters you either kill/spare does lead to that, otherwise the timeline remains the same if no future, but also major, dialogues gets altered.

Resets technically doesn't give you a new timeline, it depends on what you do after the reset which does.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

The game possibilities are somehow impossible to redo in the same timeline apparently, which is why its included in the list of possibilities.

 

[StrymULTRA]

@Ricsi You do make a good point, only specific monsters and the amount of monsters you either kill/spare does lead to that, otherwise the timeline remains the same if no future, but also major, dialogues gets altered.

Resets technically doesn't give you a new timeline, it depends on what you do after the reset which does.

Should I make just "9*2" instead of "105*2"?

 

[Antvasima]

@All staff members

What are the conclusions here?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Resets technically doesn't give you a new timeline, it depends on what you do after the reset which does.

No offense, but as far as I know that is just absolute headcanon.

Can anyone give me the quotes that even expand on how a new timeline is made? Because if Sans saying that the player makes and consumes one timeline after another, not only could that be interpreted with Chara simply destroying one timeline and being able to force your soul to stay there, but it also doesn't claim at all how those timeline are made.

Hell, since Chara plain says "let's move on to the next world", the idea of them destroying one timeline at a time would even fit with everything Sans said beyond "everything ends".

Regardless, I want proof for this stuff.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@All staff members

What are the conclusions here?

Nothing concise yet, but unless any new stuff comes up it stays as 2-C possibly 2-B due to lack of proof otherwise.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Ricsi Frisk has tried resetting before and the timeline clearly remains the same at that point until they caused a major event that led to creating a different one and Sans literally explained this too.

So no, it really isn't headcanon if the characters in the game already make that self-explanatory.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Strym Not sure yet but I'll redo the calculations so that o gets factored in.

Edit: Scratch that, since Flowey mentioned only killing or sparing, then the Neutral Endings doesn't apply but only the 1 pacifist route & 1 Genocide Route which Flowey can do is still applicable.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well what about the games?

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Strym For the Nintendo Switch Version, since it doubles the possibilities due to replacing Mad Dummy with Mad Mew and other different things you couldn't get from the PC version, that should also apply for the number of possible endings except Neutral for Flowey's case.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

I'll mention a recalculation of the total possibilities after posting Frisk's number of endings/possible timelines + other timelines that exists later.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Okay, time to get started.

Edit: Updated the calculations.

The number of timelines/endings that exists in Undertale:

• 1 Main Neutral Ending = The main Neutral Route/Ending involves everything that led up to defeating Asgore without killing him but Flowey kills him instead, steals the 6 souls and just before the point that Flowey decides to transport you out of that timeline to his timeline.
• 2 Post-Photoshop Flowey Endings: After defeating Photoshop Flowey in his timeline, you have the option to kill or spare Flowey, which leads to creating 2 alternate Endings:
  • If you decide to kill Flowey, he stands there on the grass motionless & faceless, Neutral Ending shows after returning back to the main neutral timeline (I mean, if they were still in the same timeline, then how do different events suddenly happen when you left for like a few mins or something? Nothing important shouldn't have happened in that timeframe if that were the case), Flowey kills Asgore but he decides not to be Photoshop Flowey again after remembering his defeat by you & also mentioning new dialogue every time you re-encounter him to check for any changes in dialogue just before he constantly resets the timeline w/ the 6 souls for each change of dialogue while still remaining dead (Acausality makes that self-explanatory of why that's possible).
  • Flowey runs away, suggests you to do a Pacifist ending and in return, he doesn't kill Asgore.
• 2 Pacifist Endings = You either stay or go with Toriel
  • 2 Soulless Endings = You stay or go with toriel but the timeline gets altered regardless of what choices you choose at this point
• 3 Genocide Route Endings = 1 Normal and 2 Soulless (choosing either "Do Not" or "Erase" which gives you different dialogues depending on the choice you choose)
• 4 Hard Mode Endings
• 85 Alternate Neutral Endings (4 of the alternate Netural Endings were already mentioned btw and the 4 Hard Mode Endings do not include Fun Values)
  • Being Soulless doubles this amount because you were never originally soulless in these Neutral Endings + you get extra dialogue from Flowey when you're soulless too
• 1 Dirty Hacker Ending
  • Let's not forget that Toby literally stops you from editing the files to get the artifact and the "this will never happen" dialogue was also mentioned in pastebin here, so hacking the game by editing the files is indeed an established thing in Undertale.
• 2 official timelines = According to list of Undertale dialogue directly from the game found in pastebin here, a quiche has its own timeline somehow & So Sorry being in the wrong timeline (both the game and pastebin mentions this).

In total:

• 1 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 3 + (85 ├ù 2) + 1 + 2 + 4 = 188 (Number of Timelines/Endings w/o the 13 reloads of Frisk reseting the timeline or Fun values)
• 26 (Alternate timelines created by Frisk's reloads of reseting the timeline that involves deciding whether to spare or kill Sans due to Sans mentioning that other Sans-es exist)
• 188 + 26 = 214 (Total number of timelines/endings without FUN values)

210 × 100 (Fun Values, changes in each route you do) = 21000 + 4 (Hard Mode doesn't include Fun values, which must be separated from the total) = 21,004

21,004 (Total Timelines/Endings in the PC Version-only)

The PS4 & PS Vita and Nintendo Switch Version are 2 extra parallel timelines where the PS4 & PS Vita has the exclusive Dog Shrine without Mad Mew Mew in this versio whereas in the Nintendo Switch version, Mad Mew Mew is in the game instead of Mad Dummy & the Dog Shrine is destroyed, so the total number would be tripled but we have to exclude the Dirty Hacker Ending as its impossible to get that ending in these versions.

The total amount for the Nintendo Switch version is the same as the PS4 & PS Vita, so it gets multiplied by 2 and then added to the total of the PC Version.

In total:

• 209 ├ù 100 = 20900 + 4 = 20900

(20900×2) + 21,004 = 41,800 + 21,004 = 62,804

640 (Total number of timelines/endings without the fun values)

62,804 (Total number of timelines/endings including the fun values for all versions)

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Now for Flowey.

Edit: Updated the recalculation

Disclaimer: A singular type of possibilities =/= Alternate timelines.

I reduced the monster possibilities by 2 (1 Pacifist and 1 Genocide Route Ending) due to the complications of Flowey not being able to trigger any neutral endings or soulless endings, which is also impossible for him to do. I also reduced the game possibilities to 8 with explained complications of Flowey I previously mentioned below.

Another recalculation and I considered any suggestions this time.

If we don't include the Book possibilities:

• • 2 (1 Pacifist and 1 Genocide Ending when out all possibilities of sparing or killing monsters) ├ù 8 (Game Possibilities; you can't redo the games & it gives different results, so that's why its included) ├ù 100 (Fun Values/Possibilities) = 1,600 (Total Possibilities for PC version-only)

The PS4 & PS Vita version of Undertale has the exclusive Dog Shrine but doesn't have Mad Mew Mew in that version. The Nintendo Switch has a destroyed Dog Shrine but does have Mad Mew Mew, who also replaces Mad Dummy in this version, making them both 2 extra parallel timelines to the main PC version of Undertale.

So the Nintendo Switch Version + PS4 & PS Vita would tripled this amount:

• 1,600 ├ù 3 = 4,800 (Total Possibilities from both PC, PS4 & PS Vita, and Nintendo Switch Version)

If we include it:

• • 2 (Book Possibilities) ├ù 2 (1 Pacifist and 1 Genocide Ending when out all possibilities of sparing or killing monsters) ├ù 8 (Game Possibilities; you can't redo the games & it gives different results, so that's why its included) ├ù 100 (Fun Values/Possibilities) = 3,200 (PC version-only)

3,200 × 3 = 9,600 (Total Possibilities from PC, PS4 & PS Vita and Nintendo Switch Version)

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Ricsi Frisk has tried resetting before and the timeline clearly remains the same at that point until they caused a major event that led to creating a different one and Sans literally explained this too.

Please quote that, any of that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You forgot the PS4 version which has as esclusive the Dog Shinre, so I've tripled instead of doubled

 

[Antvasima]

@Ricsi

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Ricsi Alright then and that Sans quote has already been provided by @Strym.

@Strym I almost didn't realize that, I thought it was in every new platform for the game except for PC but I noticed that the Nintendo Switch shows the Dog Shrine destroyed but in the PS4 and Playstation Vita, it looks normal & Mad Mew Mew isn't in that version.

Also, I'm gonna edit the calculations above to reduce the game possibilities b/c only the ones Flowey has likely done is the Ball Game (8 possibilities with 1 extra possibility of getting red again being exclusive to Frisk), which has chances of winning or losing while the other Snowdin Puzzles he may have solved has no possibility of losing.

The rest of the puzzles from other locations in the Ruins, Waterfall, Hotlands and etc., is either:

• Impossible to lose
• No possibility of winning or losing
• It's continuously caused by someone
• Only Frisk is able of doing them because some of them may require you to hold things & stay on constantly moving platforms or move on platforms that make you slide in any direction, which Flowey can't physically move on.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Conclusion:

• Flowey's total possibilities he created: 4,800 (Low-End) to 9,600 (High-End).
• Total timelines/endings from all 3 versions of Undertale w/o Fun Values (mainly the confirmed amount of timelines that already exist and the number of Endings created by Frisk): 640
• Total timelines/endings from all 3 versions of Undertale (including Fun Values): 62,804

The PS4 & PS Vita version had exclusive content that you couldn't get from the main PC version and the Nintendo Switch version had Mad Mew Mew as a replacement of Mad Dummy & the Dog Shrine was destroyed in this version, therefore making them both 2 extra parallel timelines, which was acceptable enough for me add all 3 of them together.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So, how many possibilities Flowey created from the games? And from which games

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Strym From 1 game is between 1,600 to 3,200. They all have the same amount for each version.

 

[StrymULTRA]

@Strym From 1 game is between 1,600 to 3,200. They all have the same amount for each version.

I meant the puzzles he solved

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Strym Mainly only just 1 puzzle/game.

The rest of them has complications that is impossible to do as a flower, no possibilities of winning or losing, someone is controlling them to happen and etc.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So only the ones with win/lose possibility

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Strym Yes, only the ones that Flowey was strongly implied to be involved in.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I get almost anything, but should I multiply Flowey's possibilities x3?

Edit: did it and I got 137'403 timelines

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

 

[Elizhaa]

From reading the thread posted by Eficiente and Risci's recent arguments, I will be neutral on the topic of the tiering.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Magi

Unless I missed something, none of Sans' quotes actually explain how timeline are made, or that Frisk even has anything to do with their creation.

Regardless, if I am wrong and such a quote was given already, please simply click the "quote" option, might have missed it.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I'm not sure, but I think this could be a evidence for Load=Timeline

"woah, you look REALLY pissed off... heheheh... did i getcha? well, if you came back anyway... i guess that means we never really WERE friends, huh? heh. don't tell that to the other sans-es, ok?"

Sans says there are other Sans-es when you load and that Sans you are fighting is different from Sans whom you lost against before.

And with the other Dialogue, we can conclude that Load=Timeline

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That goes directly against timeline jumping left and right though, if there every time you load you just go to an alternate timeline.

Plus, you could also interpret that as him saying not to say the Sanses you are friends with that you never were (like in a neutral route or something).

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Also, if loading isn't traveling back in time, characters like Toriel and Papyrus feeling familiar with you. Or Flowey saying "but you went back, because you regretted it".