Jinsye
She/Her- 10,457
- 1,577
This is in Q&A because I can't actually be bothered to make this a Content Revision thread and people want to downgrade the verse to 10-C anyways, but I was on Discord when Ultima brought up a point that the original thread didn't seem to address all too well.
I'm hoping for rebuttals to all these points since making any big changes sounds like a lot of work.
But let's get the small-fry points out of the way.
The DEF Stat
Here's our first issue, we treat the DEF stat as physical durability here. Why?
Why do we treat the Faded Ribbon, Manly Bandanna, Cloudy Glasses, and Heart Locket as physical defensive items when it makes much more sense to treat them more symbolically/spiritually? The same would apply to the Tutu despite the game saying it's 'protective', it's also implied to not really serve as actual armor. Thus them raising DEF would not be a contradiction to Soul Manipulation negating durability.
The only thing that could be treated as actual physical armor would be the Temmie Armor, which the thread so kindly points out to us. However, specifically speaking about the Temmie Armor when it's the only one that serves the point against soulhax negating durability and every other piece of armor doesn't is textbook cherry-picking.
The fact that the "armor" in the game is mostly shown to be symbolic, makes me believe that the DEF stat is more symbolic than physical. Unless someone wants to point otherwise.
Damaging the Body /=/ Damaging the SOUL
Here is the main point, the thread seems to say that damaging the body is equivalent to damaging the SOUL. Thus no durability negation. This is where I find it to be wrong, The SOUL is bound to the body, yes. But for humans (and boss monsters, to a lesser degree), it's directly shown that damaging the body doesn't harm the SOUL.
One of the most important piece of information, is that human SOULs can persist after the death of the body. This is why Asgore needs to gather 7 of them to shatter the barrier. Now, I must ask... if all monsters damage the SOUL as a natural effect of damaging the body, how would the SOUL persist after the body dies? The SOUL would take quite the beating and would most likely be destroyed along with the body if that was the case. The only way this would be the case is if the SOUL is independent from the body, in terms of damage.
This is also proof at the end of Toriel and Asgore's fight. You have to remember, Frisk has no magic and thus cannot attack SOULs. This has been stated explicitly during Napstablook and Mad Dummy's fight. If damaging the body naturally harmed the SOUL, then Toriel and Asgore's SOULs would not be able to persist after death due to the fact that their body has been turned to dust.
Now, I may have said that damaging the body does not naturally damage the SOUL, this doesn't mean that the opposite isn't true. Damaging the SOUL would very much hurt the body. The SOUL is the very culmination of your being, after all. A direct attack on it is bound to hurt and it reflects directly onto your body. This is why monsters could very much note that you are injured. This is why Sans dragging your SOUL around with TK also drags your body around, and why Undyne's green SOUL paralyzes you in place.
Conclusion
With the points in the previous thread, I don't really see how they're valid. This is basically just me looking for a counterargument here, however if this thread somehow results in dura neg being added back then I'd like to note that I do not believe it to be a one-shot like it was treated before. It's more akin to dealing damage regardless of durability.
I'm hoping for rebuttals to all these points since making any big changes sounds like a lot of work.
But let's get the small-fry points out of the way.
The DEF Stat
Here's our first issue, we treat the DEF stat as physical durability here. Why?
Is what the original post says, but look at the sets of armor in-game.How odd. All of these are items that defend the physical body.
Why do we treat the Faded Ribbon, Manly Bandanna, Cloudy Glasses, and Heart Locket as physical defensive items when it makes much more sense to treat them more symbolically/spiritually? The same would apply to the Tutu despite the game saying it's 'protective', it's also implied to not really serve as actual armor. Thus them raising DEF would not be a contradiction to Soul Manipulation negating durability.
The only thing that could be treated as actual physical armor would be the Temmie Armor, which the thread so kindly points out to us. However, specifically speaking about the Temmie Armor when it's the only one that serves the point against soulhax negating durability and every other piece of armor doesn't is textbook cherry-picking.
The fact that the "armor" in the game is mostly shown to be symbolic, makes me believe that the DEF stat is more symbolic than physical. Unless someone wants to point otherwise.
Damaging the Body /=/ Damaging the SOUL
Here is the main point, the thread seems to say that damaging the body is equivalent to damaging the SOUL. Thus no durability negation. This is where I find it to be wrong, The SOUL is bound to the body, yes. But for humans (and boss monsters, to a lesser degree), it's directly shown that damaging the body doesn't harm the SOUL.
One of the most important piece of information, is that human SOULs can persist after the death of the body. This is why Asgore needs to gather 7 of them to shatter the barrier. Now, I must ask... if all monsters damage the SOUL as a natural effect of damaging the body, how would the SOUL persist after the body dies? The SOUL would take quite the beating and would most likely be destroyed along with the body if that was the case. The only way this would be the case is if the SOUL is independent from the body, in terms of damage.
This is also proof at the end of Toriel and Asgore's fight. You have to remember, Frisk has no magic and thus cannot attack SOULs. This has been stated explicitly during Napstablook and Mad Dummy's fight. If damaging the body naturally harmed the SOUL, then Toriel and Asgore's SOULs would not be able to persist after death due to the fact that their body has been turned to dust.
Now, I may have said that damaging the body does not naturally damage the SOUL, this doesn't mean that the opposite isn't true. Damaging the SOUL would very much hurt the body. The SOUL is the very culmination of your being, after all. A direct attack on it is bound to hurt and it reflects directly onto your body. This is why monsters could very much note that you are injured. This is why Sans dragging your SOUL around with TK also drags your body around, and why Undyne's green SOUL paralyzes you in place.
Conclusion
With the points in the previous thread, I don't really see how they're valid. This is basically just me looking for a counterargument here, however if this thread somehow results in dura neg being added back then I'd like to note that I do not believe it to be a one-shot like it was treated before. It's more akin to dealing damage regardless of durability.