Undertale Revise and Rebirth

[ChoursDropoff]

This is gonna be a short one simply because the evidence regarding the stats in question is not very In depth. The aim of this thread is quite simple, I wanted to bring to attention the reasons Undertale does not qualify for Immeasurable speed.

• The main source of evidence used in this is Asreil’s hyper goner canon, that was used to “purge this timeline” the main issue with this is that an attack that nukes a timeline is not considered immeasurable speed especially without any context in Undertales case
• “Frisk out ran the blast from the attack by running through time” no she didn’t ignore the fact this has never been stated anywhere in the history of the franchise.

Why it’s more logical to assume that this is not speed feat.

• Some supporting evidence for this is Asriel stating he doesn’t want to destroy everything which is further supported when the game “an outside source independent of any character bias” states the world is crumbling. Showing the timeline was not destroyed in one hit or that it even travels through time. This would also contradict the fact that the fight was still taking time to finish showing the timeline still exists. As stated by Asriel ”in a few moments you will forget about everyone”.

• And Sans who is canonically faster than Frisk dodging her attacks numerous times, to a point that the only time the player lands a clean hit is when he’s sleeping. Sans is also a character we know for a fact canonically takes time to travel from Area to Area. And in the end when he realized the player can’t be killed his plan was to sit and wait until the end of time with Frisk, literally trapping them for an eternity.

• Lightning speed attacks can tag the main character, to a point they needed a precognitive warning to dodge the attack. Which should also be impossible if they had immeasurable speed.

• Chara in the genocide route pulled off a similar if not greater feat. Where they destroyed “the world” yet we still hear wind whistling in the background and her mentioning that it doesn’t matter when in the timeline she will always appear.

Chara also did not erase timelines, we know this because the barrier was still intact after her little temper tantrum. We can infer this because the underworld and human world aren’t spatially disconnected as Frisk literally trips and falls into the underground. And a Younger Asreil can physically carry a human to the surface before the barrier was erected.








Second Point translations

1. Why are the Japanese translations being used for an American game?

• Within the context of what was being stated the original statement was to purge the timeline. Which means to clean or get rid of. Within the context of the situation the game presents “Asriel” absorbing the SOULs of all the monsters in the underworld it’s more than likely that the timeline still exists.
• And after the battle is done the player is sent back to the completely intact underground

“But Toby Fox helped on the Japanese transitions”

• While yes he did have a helping hand in the translations for the Japanese dubbing, but going based on what he’s stated it’s clear the extent of his work was helping dub certain jokes and puns that don’t translate well into Japanese. For example 「グラマー」(glamour) has a slightly different meaning from the English word "glamour". In English, it means "luxury" or "glossy", but in Japanese, 「グラマー」 means something like "big boobs and big buttocks".

That’s a direct quote from Toby Fox himself.

• This is further supported by the fact that Toby Fox hired a team of translators to help him. 8-5 and a famous Japanese localization company were the ones who made these translations. It’s no different from when Viz translates a manga or something similar.

Third Point: Sources

• The article that was linked as proof was from a 2021 interview talking about Toby Foxes thoughts on the Japanese release of his new IP “Deltarune” not Undertale. Which is a completely different unrelated/non canon story to Undertale. The website even links Toby’s team in the credits.

https://deltarune.com/update-092021/

https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2...-concept-art-in-interview-with-nintendo-japan

Fourth Point Canonicity

The book “legends of localization” used is considered non-canon by the author themselves. And within this book we get more context on the pun of “goner” the pun goner within the original context means “to go missing”. This draws narrative parallel to the goners of the underground. Where they talk about not existing within the world while it still exists without you.

This interpretation maintains what the original phasing said and is more in line with what literally happened within the game. Asriel absorbs the souls of the entire underground thus making them all “not exist” in the world anymore.

And this is the only logical conclusion one can reach with what happened at the end of the game. Asriel used all the souls + the 6 other humans to break the barrier between the underground and human place.



True RESETS
In this Portion of the story it’s explained that the player now has the same power, or “determination” as Chara and Asriel. Which gives them the ability to reset the world, sending everything back in time to redo events. This is what Chara did after erasing everything and what Asreil did after giving up the right. Further proven by the fact that everything was returned back to normal after Asriel's boss fight.


Additional issues

Most the cast can tag Frisk which is clearly a issue of their massively hypersonic and she’s quite literally beyond infinitely faster then everyone else.

Asgore was able to be one tapped by Flowey while completely battle ready, the same Asgore that can fight fight with Frisk.

The characters who get affected

1. Frisk (Speed rating gets affected)
2. Asriel Dreemurr (Speed and AP ratings get affected)
3. The Player (Speed rating)
4. Chara (Speed rating)

Side note any characters who got history EE off “erasing timelines” needs to be erased as well.

 

[DaReaperMan]

The speed thing is COMPLETELY misguided and not realizing how Frisk is treated here... that is that Frisk varies. They don't have one set in stone tier, hence their varies rating. Their speed varies from Subsonic+ to Immeasurable, it's not literally one tier alone. This is like... day 1 shit to learn about the child. I don't even LIKE the current UT ratings and find them wanky, but Immeasurable speed is fine because literally only Asriel, Frisk, and Chara are scaling to it!

I have no horse in the EE race.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Great job, i agree with downgrade.

 

[Huesito88]

This is like... day 1 shit to learn about the child. I don't even LIKE the current UT ratings and find them wanky, but Immeasurable speed is fine because literally only Asriel, Frisk, and Chara are scaling to it!

That wasn't his only argument he gave (though your right on the varies rating)

 

[DaReaperMan]

That wasn't his only argument he gave (though your right on the varies rating)

Which part, the one that boils down to personal semantics or the part that introduces enough circular scaling that it makes Warcraft seem perfectly consistent in it's story?

 

[ChoursDropoff]

The speed thing is COMPLETELY misguided and not realizing how Frisk is treated here... that is that Frisk varies. They don't have one set in stone tier, hence their varies rating. Their speed varies from Subsonic+ to Immeasurable, it's not literally one tier alone. This is like... day 1 shit to learn about the child. I don't even LIKE the current UT ratings and find them wanky, but Immeasurable speed is fine because literally only Asriel, Frisk, and Chara are scaling to it!

I have no horse in the EE race.

Could you clarify what you’re talking about? Because I’m not attacking those Subsonic stats I’m bringing in the narrative inconsistency of them having immeasurable speed.

Essentially since the current stats are predicated on feats that didn’t actually happen and statements that were never made.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Could you clarify what you’re talking about? Because I’m not attacking those Subsonic stats I’m bringing in the narrative inconsistency of them having immeasurable speed.

And where's the inconsistency? Peak DT Frisk is just for THAT Asriel fight. And the lightning from that fight? Prove it's real.

Essentially since the current stats are predicated on feats that didn’t actually happen and statements that were never made.

Undertale: Immeasurable Speed, but it is for good.

I remember when I was in the site for the first time. End of 2017. They were the times of when Timeless voids granted Infinite speed, Dimensional Tiering gave you AP from default and other stuff. One of these other memories was Immeasurable Speed for Undertale god tiers. But like anything else...

vsbattles.com

No seriously, just the thread it happened in. Immeasurable is fine, and was done well.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Which part, the one that boils down to personal semantics or the part that introduces enough circular scaling that it makes Warcraft seem perfectly consistent in it's story?

Can you explain which part that is?

 

[StrymULTRA]

• The main source of evidence used in this is Asreil’s hyper goner canon, that was used to “purge this timeline” the main issue with this is that an attack that nukes a timeline is not considered immeasurable speed especially without any context in Undertales case

Why wouldn't it?

• “Frisk out ran the blast from the attack by running through time” no she didn’t ignore the fact this has never been stated anywhere in the history of the franchise.

Since when textbook statements are needed here? We can indeed interpret feats, and with everything that is in the blog, you can easily see by yourself why. Frisk, if they dodge the attack entirely, have their HPs untouched, if not, they get set to 1.

It's that simple.

Some supporting evidence for this is Asriel stating he doesn’t want to destroy everything which is further supported when the game “an outside source independent of any character bias” states the world is crumbling. Showing the timeline was not destroyed in one hit or that it even travels through time. This would also contradict the fact that the fight was still taking time to finish showing the timeline still exists. As stated by Asriel ”in a few moments you will forget about everyone”.

You know that the "world" in itself is meant to be Undertale as a whole rather than a singular timeline, correct? Toby Fox and Chara literally say so.

Like this is basic knowledge of Undertale, to argue that Undertale's whole world is a singular timeline you hae to say that there's only 1 timeline at all, but you'd have to go through a lot of people for that (as we had this discussion more times than there are atoms in a blade of grass).

• And Sans who is canonically faster than Frisk dodging her attacks numerous times, to a point that the only time the player lands a clean hit is when he’s sleeping. Sans is also a character we know for a fact canonically takes time to travel from Area to Area. And in the end when he realized the player can’t be killed his plan was to sit and wait until the end of time with Frisk, literally trapping them for an eternity.

It's literally on Frisk's profile that their speed and AP both increase depending on their DT. Sans did not fight a Frisk at the peak of their DT.

Read the profiles before making CRTs like this.

• Lightning speed attacks can tag the main character, to a point they needed a precognitive warning to dodge the attack. Which should also be impossible if they had immeasurable speed.

Given they're used by a Literal God tier who in an infinitely weaker form blitzed all the cast which has MHS+ speed, yeah, his lightnings are Immeasurable. Your point?

• Chara in the genocide route pulled off a similar if not greater feat. Where they destroyed “the world” yet we still hear wind whistling in the background and her mentioning that it doesn’t matter when in the timeline she will always appear.

Are we actually back in 2016? The "wind" is more like an artistic choice to showcase the total void that was caused by Chara's actions rather than it proving that Chara did not even destroy the planet.

Especially when the cosmology blog makes it clear that Undertale's whole reality is made of timelines generated by DT users, and Chara implying that the "world" they destroy is made of these timelines as well, especially after that they destroy the files, and Toby attempted to make Chara delete Undertale itself, a proof that all of reality was destroyed instead.

I do not think you read it at all because no way you're arguing this otherwise.

Chara also did not erase timelines, we know this because the barrier was still intact after her little temper tantrum. We can infer this because the underworld and human world aren’t spatially disconnected as Frisk literally trips and falls into the underground. And a Younger Asreil can physically carry a human to the surface before the barrier was erected.

1. That's just the intro.
2. Nothing says the barrier was not destroyed, this is your headcanon.

1. Why are the Japanese translations being used for an American game?

• This is further supported by the fact that Toby Fox hired a team of translators to help him. 8-5 and a famous Japanese localization company were the ones who made these translations. It’s no different from when Viz translates a manga or something similar.

Outside the fact that Toby himself has aided the translations, to the point that the translators had to ask him about how to translate some elements. Do your homework next time lol.

The book “legends of localization” used is considered non-canon by the author themselves.

It does not even say that. It says only that Tomato (the writer of the book) cannot answer lore things instead of Toby, not that whatever info there is not canonical, especially when Toby himself literally gives WoG.

• The article that was linked as proof was from a 2021 interview talking about Toby Foxes thoughts on the Japanese release of his new IP “Deltarune” not Undertale. Which is a completely different unrelated/non canon story to Undertale. The website even links Toby’s team in the credits.

Undertale and Deltarune are canonically connected despite not sharing cosmologies, as the Player character is the same (check AP description), Toby himself says it, and the fact that there are many references in DR wouldn't make sense for players who did not play UT.

The games are connected not because they're sequels, but because DR is canonically played by the Player after they were done with UT.

And this is the only logical conclusion one can reach with what happened at the end of the game. Asriel used all the souls + the 6 other humans to break the barrier between the underground and human place.

The Barrier could not be destroyed by Photoshop Flowey who is Low 2-C (6 SOULs), but as Asriel Dreemurr he still took a great effort, other than quite literally everything in the game telling you that only a being with the power of 7 SOULs can destroy the barrier.

Kinda tells me more that the Barrier is 2-B tbf, especially given how humans are glazed constantly from the narrative to be absurdly more powerful than monsters.

Can you explain which part that is?

Supernatural Willpower and Empowerment (Seemingly all humans can produce and take much larger amounts of DETERMINATION than monsters, with DETERMINATION being the extreme strength of will to keep living. Frisk is also implied to increase their statistics depending on how determined they feel per fight, showcased from being able to keep up fights from weak monsters to Asriel Dreemurr in his strongest forms right because of this power, similairly to how Undyne, thanks to her DETERMINATION, was capable of transforming in her Undying form after getting "a burning feeling" despite feeling her body tearing apart from being fatally wounded)

Varies with Determination. Subsonic+ with Minimal Determination, Supersonic+, possibly Massively Hypersonic+ with Great Determination (Can battle against Asgore), up to Hypersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+ with Sea Tea (Can move faster with the Sea Tea up to reaching twice their regular speed), Immeasurable with Peak Determination (Dodged attacks from Asriel Dreemurr, and was able to outrun and dodge Asriel's Hyper Goner, an attack that can purge and consume an entire timeline)

Dude, this is like, the Undertale's ABC.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Can you explain which part that is?

Oh I don't know, mentioning Sans despite him NEVER fighting Peak DT Frisk?

 

[ChoursDropoff]

And where's the inconsistency? Peak DT Frisk is just for THAT Asriel fight. And the lightning from that fight? Prove it's real.

The scan I linked talked about Flowey firing lightning not some magical ability or something. In specific Flowey that doesn’t even scale to God tiers immeasurable speed.

Undertale: Immeasurable Speed, but it is for good.

I remember when I was in the site for the first time. End of 2017. They were the times of when Timeless voids granted Infinite speed, Dimensional Tiering gave you AP from default and other stuff. One of these other memories was Immeasurable Speed for Undertale god tiers. But like anything else...

vsbattles.com

No seriously, just the thread it happened in. Immeasurable is fine, and was done well.

I know about that thread linking it isn’t addressing my points. The speed rating is overall not consistent that’s my point.

 

[StrymULTRA]

"It's not consistent"

Idk man you're ignoring that rating is only for Frisk's Peak and that only 4 characters scale to them in that state.

 

[StrymULTRA]

TBH this is obvious spite after the Dragon Ball downgrades and the many VS Threads UT won against it (aka the many Sans fights and the Photoshop Flowey vs Beerus), lol.

 

[DaReaperMan]

The scan I linked talked about Flowey firing lightning not some magical ability or something.

Not what I asked pal, We have standards, and Asriel's lightning ticks literally ZERO of them!

In specific Flowey that doesn’t even scale to God tiers immeasurable speed.

... no. Flowey doesn't. You are correct. Asriel's 2-B eff-you mode does.

I know about that thread linking it isn’t addressing my points. The speed rating is overall not consistent that’s my point.

And WHO SCALES to Peak Determination Frisk? Not Sans!

 

[DaReaperMan]

TBH this is obvious spite after the Dragon Ball downgrades and the many VS Threads UT won against it (aka the many Sans fights and the Photoshop Flowey vs Beerus), lol.

I would ask you to not do things like this, but unlike other people you at least did it after you made your debunk so... congrats on not being the worst?

Try not to poison the well though.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I would ask you to not do things like this, but unlike other people you at least did it after you made your debunk so... congrats on not being the worst?

Try not to poison the well though.

I mean most of these points wouldn't been made if OP played the game or at least read the whole of the profiles before doing this.

Otherwise we wouldn't get "Frisk's Immeasurable speed is an outlier because Sans is faster" when it's right on their profile with scans that their speed canonically varies and almost no one scales to their peak.

But alr.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not what I asked pal, We have standards, and Asriel's lightning ticks literally ZERO of them!

TBH these are only stuff about the minimal speed of these lightnings, however Asriel's ones are Immeasurable off just scaling from an Immeasurable feat + the whole DT thing about boosting all stats.

I do not think it's that complicated, every RPG in existence has elemental attacks scaling to insane speeds because of simple scaling.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Another day, another Undertale speed revision

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This thread gave me an impression that OP did not play the game nor read the profiles. Not gonna make any assumptions here, but still.
I disagree heavily due to arguments presented by @DaReaperMan and @StrymULTRA. I don’t really have much to add.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

This thread gave me an impression that OP did not play the game nor read the profiles. Not gonna make any assumptions here, but still.
I disagree heavily due to arguments presented by @DaReaperMan and @StrymULTRA. I don’t really have much to add.

Same.

 

[LittleGuy99]

This thread gave me an impression that OP did not play the game nor read the profiles. Not gonna make any assumptions here, but still.
I disagree heavily due to arguments presented by @DaReaperMan and @StrymULTRA. I don’t really have much to add.

I think the same

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

To be fair, the whole Frisk having varying levels of power and speed originates from a single blink and you'll miss it line.
They probably played the game (Didn't read the profiles tho)

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Why wouldn't it?

Since when textbook statements are needed here? We can indeed interpret feats, and with everything that is in the blog, you can easily see by yourself why. Frisk, if they dodge the attack entirely, have their HPs untouched, if not, they get set to 1.

For high end assumptions like this it is always needed to be very specific that the feat is actually meant to be interpreted as high as it. plus, dodging makes less sense the hyper goner canon is a sucking attack not one that can be dodged. it absorbs and DT Frisk can't be absorbed by Asriel.

on top of the fact gameplay is not lore dude, whether or not you get hit is a question of the players skill.

It's that simple.

You know that the "world" in itself is meant to be Undertale as a whole rather than a singular timeline, correct? Toby Fox and Chara literally say so.

Well contently Chara isn't the one preforming the feat its Asriel and as we both know after the timeline destruction is preformed the barrier and overworld are still left in tact.
btw what part of Toby Fox statements are you referring to? the part where he calls his two games con canon to one another or the part where he states that the world was left unchained by Undertale's ending supporting what I'm saying?

Like this is basic knowledge of Undertale, to argue that Undertale's whole world is a singular timeline you hae to say that there's only 1 timeline at all, but you'd have to go through a lot of people for that (as we had this discussion more times than there are atoms in a blade of grass).
It's literally on Frisk's profile that their speed and AP both increase depending on their DT. Sans did not fight a Frisk at the peak of their DT.

Read the profiles before making CRTs like this.

that was not my argument nowhere am I calling UT a single timeline I'm saying the timeline in question that the main story takes place in was not destroyed.

Given they're used by a Literal God tier who in an infinitely weaker form blitzed all the cast which has MHS+ speed, yeah, his lightnings are Immeasurable. Your point?

the point is that the scan was referring Flowey first of all and the interview clearly was talking about regular lightning in some beyond infinitely faster attack.

Are we actually back in 2016? The "wind" is more like an artistic choice to showcase the total void that was caused by Chara's actions rather than it proving that Chara did not even destroy the planet.

Especially when the cosmology blog makes it clear that Undertale's whole reality is made of timelines generated by DT users, and Chara implying that the "world" they destroy is made of these timelines as well, especially after that they destroy the files, and Toby attempted to make Chara delete Undertale itself, a proof that all of reality was destroyed instead.

I do not think you read it at all because no way you're arguing this otherwise.

The true reset is function in the game and lore that allows one to hard restart the game from the beginning it Chara quite sending you back to an earlier point in the game not that it matters your either purposely or un intestinally misunderstanding the argument that saving and loading in lore is just that saving and going back to a different point in time

1. That's just the intro.
2. Nothing says the barrier was not destroyed, this is your headcanon.

considering Asriel who is in the same tier and with all feats presented is stronger if not equal it's the only logical assumption she only has one human soul and the whole conflict of the game is that one literally is not enough. we have reason to assume she conveniently cimvented this rule.

Outside the fact that Toby himself has aided the translations, to the point that the translators had to ask him about how to translate some elements. Do your homework next time lol.



It does not even say that. It says only that Tomato (the writer of the book) cannot answer lore things instead of Toby, not that whatever info there is not canonical, especially when Toby himself literally gives WoG.

the scan you are linking talks about how Toby wanted them to handle the word play of Determination as in (De-Termination) which links back to what i said that the majority if not all his involvement was linked to him helping with these are to translate puns. a similar issue popped up with the word 'Defuse" that did not translate well thus had to be changed

Undertale and Deltarune are canonically connected despite not sharing cosmologies, as the Player character is the same (check AP description), Toby himself says it, and the fact that there are many references in DR wouldn't make sense for players who did not play UT.
https://imgur.com/a/6auck0z
The games are connected not because they're sequels, but because DR is canonically played by the Player after they were done with UT.

No, he blatantly does not even agree with you when he calls the story's completely separate. the player being a self-insert for the consumer does not mean they are the same person. Deltarune is considered a spiritual successor but not a literal one.

but anyway that was not the point I was getting at, the point being the cite listed for evidence is not even talking about UT it is talking about Toby's other game. so please can we get back on point?

https://imgur.com/a/6auck0z
The Barrier could not be destroyed by Photoshop Flowey who is Low 2-C (6 SOULs), but as Asriel Dreemurr he still took a great effort, other than quite literally everything in the game telling you that only a being with the power of 7 SOULs can destroy the barrier.

IK this but if the timeline was so should have the human world it makes no sense even if we assumed the barrier is 2-B which is predicated on nothing. it doesn't negate the fact the feat constitutes a logical impossibly. that like saying i Atomized Earth completely but Asia is okay.

and this ties back to what I said earlier about how if 7 souls are needed to break the barrier Chara more than likely did not do it.

https://imgur.com/a/6auck0z
Kinda tells me more that the Barrier is 2-B tbf, especially given how humans are glazed constantly from the narrative to be absurdly more powerful than monsters.
https://imgur.com/a/6auck0z

Their 2-B rating does not scale to AP it more of creation Hax

Supernatural Willpower and Empowerment (Seemingly all humans can produce and take much larger amounts of DETERMINATION than monsters, with DETERMINATION being the extreme strength of will to keep living. Frisk is also implied to increase their statistics depending on how determined they feel per fight, showcased from being able to keep up fights from weak monsters to Asriel Dreemurr in his strongest forms right because of this power, similairly to how Undyne, thanks to her DETERMINATION, was capable of transforming in her Undying form after getting "a burning feeling" despite feeling her body tearing apart from being fatally wounded)
https://imgur.com/a/6auck0z
Varies with Determination. Subsonic+ with Minimal Determination, Supersonic+, possibly Massively Hypersonic+ with Great Determination (Can battle against Asgore), up to Hypersonic, possibly Massively Hypersonic+ with Sea Tea (Can move faster with the Sea Tea up to reaching twice their regular speed), Immeasurable with Peak Determination (Dodged attacks from Asriel Dreemurr, and was able to outrun and dodge Asriel's Hyper Goner, an attack that can purge and consume an entire timeline)
https://imgur.com/a/6auck0z
Dude, this is like, the Undertale's ABC.

https://imgur.com/a/6auck0z
Dude this is padding and irrelevant.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Oh I don't know, mentioning Sans despite him NEVER fighting Peak DT Frisk?

Toby himself states that Frisk is only along for the ride and that they really only have as Much DT due to the player. So it’s unlikely that they literally got stronger especially since LoV is the only metric of leveling up we know and the feat with Asreil will be “preformed” wether or not you fight him.

So how would a stronger player not be able to hit someone beyond infinitely slower then they are?

 

[ChoursDropoff]

TBH this is obvious spite after the Dragon Ball downgrades and the many VS Threads UT won against it (aka the many Sans fights and the Photoshop Flowey vs Beerus), lol.

Pretty baseless accusation, I genuinely don’t care about whatever one sided rivalry you have with DB.

 

[StrymULTRA]

For high end assumptions like this it is always needed to be very specific that the feat is actually meant to be interpreted as high as it. plus, dodging makes less sense the hyper goner canon is a sucking attack not one that can be dodged. it absorbs and DT Frisk can't be absorbed by Asriel.

Frisk literally can dodge it. That's it.

You can't just say "actually they don't because I say so", it happens right in front of you.

on top of the fact gameplay is not lore dude, whether or not you get hit is a question of the players skill.

1. You talk of Undertale, one of the most metafictional games ever which takes as canon many gameplay elements like SAVE and LOAD, In-game stats, and so on.
2. Frisk is canonically controlled by the player.
3. The whole of the narrative is centered about Player's choices over the game world.

Come on.

Well contently Chara isn't the one preforming the feat its Asriel

Asriel has pretty much the same knowledge on Chara as he did initially plan to destroy the world like Chara did only to later change his mind to just reset it (it's on his profile), and both are aware of who the Player is.

btw what part of Toby Fox statements are you referring to? the part where he calls his two games con canon to one another or the part where he states that the world was left unchained by Undertale's ending supporting what I'm saying?

The part where he calls the games 2 whole different worlds that are not related.

that was not my argument nowhere am I calling UT a single timeline I'm saying the timeline in question that the main story takes place in was not destroyed.

This makes no sense as "world" is consistently reffered as being the whole of the timelines, something that Sans also hints to in the Genocide route.

UT taking place in a single timeline is nonsensical.

the point is that the scan was referring Flowey first of all and the interview clearly was talking about regular lightning in some beyond infinitely faster attack.

What.

The true reset is function in the game and lore that allows one to hard restart the game from the beginning it Chara quite sending you back to an earlier point in the game not that it matters your either purposely or un intestinally misunderstanding the argument that saving and loading in lore is just that saving and going back to a different point in time

This is just a bunch of yap that does not address my answer.

I made a reply to the whole "lol there's still wind" thing, and you begin to talk about True Reset? What?

No, he blatantly does not even agree with you when he calls the story's completely separate. the player being a self-insert for the consumer does not mean they are the same person. Deltarune is considered a spiritual successor but not a literal one.

Stories being separate =/= its existence being not canon.

The Player's profile ALONE has evidence of the games being connnected. You did not refute any of this.

but anyway that was not the point I was getting at, the point being the cite listed for evidence is not even talking about UT it is talking about Toby's other game. so please can we get back on point?

YOU are the one to took in Deltarune's canonicity, lmfao.

considering Asriel who is in the same tier and with all feats presented is stronger if not equal it's the only logical assumption she only has one human soul and the whole conflict of the game is that one literally is not enough. we have reason to assume she conveniently cimvented this rule.

Frisk and Chara are 2-B with a single SOUL while Photoshop Flowey is Low 2-C with 6 SOULs.

This is a non-argument.

the scan you are linking talks about how Toby wanted them to handle the word play of Determination as in (De-Termination) which links back to what i said that the majority if not all his involvement was linked to him helping with these are to translate puns. a similar issue popped up with the word 'Defuse" that did not translate well thus had to be changed

All of my scans literally talk about how the localization team had to consult Toby about some choices, meaning that the JP version is as usable as the ENG one.

We do this already for Sonic for the same reason after all, as both of these cases consult the localization teams to make the story more viable to other audiences.

Their 2-B rating does not scale to AP it more of creation Hax

What the **** are you talking about? Asriel destroying the cosmology by existing, and Chara destroyed the game with an attack.

There's not just Chara re-creating the game.

IK this but if the timeline was so should have the human world it makes no sense even if we assumed the barrier is 2-B which is predicated on nothing. it doesn't negate the fact the feat constitutes a logical impossibly. that like saying i Atomized Earth completely but Asia is okay.

The barrier has feats of tanking Tier 2 stuff, you saying "no it's not because I say so" is not a rebuttal.

Toby himself states that Frisk is only along for the ride and that they really only have as Much DT due to the player. So it’s unlikely that they literally got stronger especially since LoV is the only metric of leveling up we know and the feat with Asreil will be “preformed” wether or not you fight him.

So how would a stronger player not be able to hit someone beyond infinitely slower then they are?

LV is not the only power increase metric, what? LV 1 Frisk can fight the same between Froggit, Undyne, Asgore and Asriel, all of them being massively different in stats.

I do think that ALONE is evidence for them varying canonically. Plus your "scan" (which is just a fanmade copy-paste of a Toby's quote from the Localization Book) does not debunk this, it does not say that Frisk always takes all the Player's power at once (otherwise we get 2-B Asgore, Undyne, etc. which would be weird).

 

[DaReaperMan]

Toby himself states that Frisk is only along for the ride and that they really only have as Much DT due to the player. So it’s unlikely that they literally got stronger especially since LoV is the only metric of leveling up we know and the feat with Asreil will be “preformed” wether or not you fight him.

So how would a stronger player not be able to hit someone beyond infinitely slower then they are?

Well revise the entire verse from the LITERAL GROUND UP, because we aren't in 2017, and Sans doesn't fight the player, he fights a High 8-C Frisk via his dura neg.

Because it has been that way(though swap Frisk's tier to somewhere in tier 9) since the dinosaurs were ******* on the mountaintops!

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well revise the entire verse from the LITERAL GROUND UP, because we aren't in 2017, and Sans doesn't fight the player, he fights a High 8-C Frisk via his dura neg.

I do remember back then when Frisk had a whole jey just for Genocide Route and their peak DT mixing their fights with Asriel and Photoshop Flowey.

Weird times tbf.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Toby himself states that Frisk is only along for the ride and that they really only have as Much DT due to the player. So it’s unlikely that they literally got stronger especially since LoV is the only metric of leveling up we know and the feat with Asreil will be “preformed” wether or not you fight him.

He didn't, actually.

Clyde did, and is the same guy who said to not take his words as canon for the lore.


This CRT's credibility kinda gets shot down with this tbh

 

[StrymULTRA]

though swap Frisk's tier to somewhere in tier 9

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean Frisk did use to be tier 9, whether I agree with your tier 8 or not Frisk was tier 9 for awhile lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean Frisk did use to be tier 9, whether I agree with your tier 8 or not Frisk was tier 9 for awhile lol

Ah you mean that, genuienly forgot UT used to be just 9-A.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ah you mean that, genuienly forgot UT used to be just 9-A.

I think it dropped to 9-B at one point lmfao

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I think it dropped to 9-B at one point lmfao

It did.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think it dropped to 9-B at one point lmfao

I do remember back then in like 2020 when people spammed A LOT downgrades, most of which made no sense (like discarding MTT's feat because "the wall was fake because it was all staged" when it was a massive assumption that was pretty much fanfic-y too).

We went away from that a long time ago, thankfully.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Disagree with the OP Fra

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Reaper and Styrm's rebuttals to OP's arguments make sense to me.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Frisk literally can dodge it. That's it.

You can't just say "actually they don't because I say so", it happens right in front of you.

Again gameplay mechanics do not equal actual lore that the point. saying she can dodge the attack is the same as saying she can't depend on who is playing.

but anyway where is it stated she ran through time to evade the attack that's the main problem with these assumptions.

1. You talk of Undertale, one of the most metafictional games ever which takes as canon many gameplay elements like SAVE and LOAD, In-game stats, and so on.
2. Frisk is canonically controlled by the player.
3. The whole of the narrative is centered about Player's choices over the game world.

Come on.

cool I guess but regardless of them referencing the player aka 4th wall breaking is not the same as saying gameplay is now canon the same way one player may dodge the attack is the same way another may not this point your trying to make is meaningless.

Asriel has pretty much the same knowledge on Chara as he did initially plan to destroy the world like Chara did only to later change his mind to just reset it (it's on his profile), and both are aware of who the Player is.

Okay this is just blatantly a lie it is not on his profile, and if he only was going to reset the timeline it means that it exists you know?

The part where he calls the games 2 whole different worlds that are not related.

so, if they're not related then there is no point bringing them up.

This makes no sense as "world" is consistently reffered as being the whole of the timelines, something that Sans also hints to in the Genocide route.

certain characters can remember resets by reading Frisk game file but sans himself never outwardly states what your implying so it is really a nothing point on your end.

UT taking place in a single timeline is nonsensical.

putting word in my mouth Sans can remember true resets but not if you just play the game normally

This is just a bunch of yap that does not address my answer.

I made a reply to the whole "lol there's still wind" thing, and you begin to talk about True Reset? What?

it literally does Chara is sending you back in time/resetting the world from a new one can be made with a true reset. Chara has no definitve proof of erasing the timeline.

Stories being separate =/= its existence being not canon.

The Player's profile ALONE has evidence of the games being connnected. You did not refute any of this.

YOU are the one to took in Deltarune's canonicity, lmfao.

to each other definitely this isn't a unique concept an author can work on two things and have them not be in the same world. but regardless this is just a huge nothing burger.

Frisk and Chara are 2-B with a single SOUL while Photoshop Flowey is Low 2-C with 6 SOULs.

This is a non-argument.

Why do you keep bringing PS Flowey he is not relevant to what I said Flowey despite being 2-B and "erasing the timeline" which you have already admitted the human world is included in the Barrier underground and overworld were all fine.

All of my scans literally talk about how the localization team had to consult Toby about some choices, meaning that the JP version is as usable as the ENG one.

We do this already for Sonic for the same reason after all, as both of these cases consult the localization teams to make the story more viable to other audiences.

cool and all your scans all talk about how Toby was manly conserned with how specific phrases caried over not this conviet statemnt that conflicts the original.

What the **** are you talking about? Asriel destroying the cosmology by existing, and Chara destroyed the game with an attack.

well in that case that is wrong ignoring the fact that passive 2-B ap via existence is not accepted. it conflicts with the reason his tier 2 feat is accepted via an attack. What are you r=trying to pull?

There's not just Chara re-creating the game.

The barrier has feats of tanking Tier 2 stuff, you saying "no it's not because I say so" is not a rebuttal.

again, no it does not you have already admitted that Asriel did not destroy the timeline when you said you think he only reset it so there is no reason to assume that the barrier itself was destroyed. you don't even believe in what you're saying

What.
LV is not the only power increase metric, what? LV 1 Frisk can fight the same between Froggit, Undyne, Asgore and Asriel, all of them being massively different in stats.

I do think that ALONE is evidence for them varying canonically. Plus your "scan" (which is just a fanmade copy-paste of a Toby's quote from the Localization Book) does not debunk this, it does not say that Frisk always takes all the Player's power at once (otherwise we get 2-B Asgore, Undyne, etc. which would be weird).

considering Chara is just the feeling of the players number getting higher and the more LV you accumulate the more you can one shot enemies and even with that Frsik still cannot hit Sans it does not matter if you are at 1 LV or 20 the maximum the effects stay the same meaning it is canon.

This same person who can insta kill Flowey who one shotted Asgore.

regarding the scan I will edit that out if what you say is true but we never fight Asgore in the genocide route

regardless we need staff input because it is clear this argument of yours is becoming secular.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

He didn't, actually.

Clyde did, and is the same guy who said to not take his words as canon for the lore.


This CRT's credibility kinda gets shot down with this tbh

this whole scan goes over the many meaning for the word "save" it explicitly states it they did not want to translate it as same "salvation" and it does not even mention the timeline erasure you keep talking about.

but can you cite your source at least?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Again gameplay mechanics do not equal actual lore that the point. saying she can dodge the attack is the same as saying she can't depend on who is playing.

Given that Frisk is canonically possessed by the Player constantly in guiding their actions, I mean, what's your point?

Frisk is always used by the Player, you arguing game mechanic against this point is irrelevant, because it just goes against a lore element of the verse (which bases itself on game mechanics, mind you).

but anyway where is it stated she ran through time to evade the attack that's the main problem with these assumptions.

Given the attack is pretty much destroying the "timeline", I think it's clear that the attack is interesting all of space-time at once, thus Frisk has to move equally as fast to even being able to dodge it.

cool I guess but regardless of them referencing the player aka 4th wall breaking is not the same as saying gameplay is now canon

"Referencing the Player"

Dude, there's FAR MORE meta stuff than that for Undertale, I even mentioned that. You just ignored them.

Okay this is just blatantly a lie it is not on his profile

Multiverse level (Claimed to be able to destroy the Undertale world and would be capable of resetting it through a TRUE RESET, which resets the entirety of the world. As Flowey, he adopted the same view on the world that Chara has, and intended on working together with them to destroy everything in the Genocide Route. His ATK value is infinite, making him the strongest enemy in the game by far. Casually erased a whole timeline using the "Hyper Goner"), far higher while using his true power (After stopping to use just a fraction of his real power and releasing his true form, he made the world slowly end with his presence. Instantly reduced Frisk's HP to 1 with his strongest attack), Can ignore conventional durability with SOUL Magic

It's literally there, what are you talking about.

and if he only was going to reset the timeline it means that it exists you know?

Asriel was about to reset "this world", not specifically just the timeline. Even then, he said changed his mind on doing so because he just wanted to Reset instead.

so, if they're not related then there is no point bringing them up.

They're not related only in terms of mechanics and story, but the Player alone makes them still connected.

certain characters can remember resets by reading Frisk game file but sans himself never outwardly states what your implying so it is really a nothing point on your end.

putting word in my mouth Sans can remember true resets but not if you just play the game normally

He cannot even remember normal RESETs.

In the Genocide Route he needs to read Frisk's face to guess how many times they died against him, and from his own admission, he can't count past 12 times. In the Neutral Route, instead, he only makes a hypothesis about Frisk's power to rewind time, without confirming it.

cool and all your scans all talk about how Toby was manly conserned with how specific phrases caried over not this conviet statemnt that conflicts the original.

Did you even read them? Because they all are about decisions made with Toby, not him just complaining about things without him being able to argue back.

This is getting ridiculous now.

it conflicts with the reason his tier 2 feat is accepted via an attack.

He's Tier 2 because of him scaling above Frisk and Chara actually. The rest like him wanting to destroy the world only to change his mind later is just supportive.

considering Chara is just the feeling of the players number getting higher and the more LV you accumulate the more you can one shot enemies and even with that Frsik still cannot hit Sans it does not matter if you are at 1 LV or 20 the maximum the effects stay the same meaning it is canon.

LV is not the only way you can become stronger (again). Frisk at just LV 1 in pacifist can fight the same random Froggits, Asgore, Undyne and Asriel without any problem.

Either you say that these 4 characters are all the same in power, or you concede on Frisk's DT varying their stats without any LV increase. Your choice.

This same person who can insta kill Flowey

At great DT

who one shotted Asgore.

He never did, what? At best he just destroyed the SOUL of an ALREADY DEFEATED Asgore. I do not think you've played the game at this point, because this is not an error anyone who played UT can do.

regarding the scan I will edit that out if what you say is true but we never fight Asgore in the genocide route

We... kinda do. Just that we one-shot him.

this whole scan goes over the many meaning for the word "save" it explicitly states it they did not want to translate it as same "salvation" and it does not even mention the timeline erasure you keep talking about.

It's said from Clyde, not Toby. Aka does not matter anyway.b

but can you cite your source at least?

Legends of Localization Book 3: UNDERTALE.

You can easily find it on Archive.