Undertale: Determination scaling for better character tiering

[Squid_peanut]

simply put the human in whatever run you do of undertale is really powerful and high tier with many impressive feats, all of which seem to be linked completely to their determination (they can shoot people with a gun that has no bullets or even one shot a timeline with a stick). but all of this begs the question of if their feats should be used for every character they face over the course of the game. personally i say no and think we should look into finding out how determined they are at any given time and from what, and from that to decide if their feats should then scale another character up.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

For future reference, the vs subsection of the forum is for character fights.

I agree, as scaling Papyrus to multi-galaxy level simply because later in the game, Frisk becomes 2-C is absurd. I'd say it's a safe bet that most of the game, Frisk's tier stays somewhere within 7, but with immense amounts of determination, they end up in tier 2.

 

[Squid_peanut]

case and point, Jerry can take multiple hits to kill even in the genocide run, if stats are always constant then jerry would be around as durable as undyne the undying, and while I think that would be funny, it would also be pretty bull

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The Jerry thing can actually be explained, as he's so annoying and pointless, he's purposefully made so the player will want to ditch him as opposed to just having to deal with his BS. However, yeah, totally not seeing universal Jerry, as hilarious as that would be.

 

[Squid_peanut]

ah sorry, this is my first time doing anything with forums and i thought going under what seemed to say general discousion board would be okay. sorry <

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Not a problem. You posted under "vs threads" on accident, so I just moved it to general discussion.

 

[Squid_peanut]

thanks! also I've seen you on alot of pages on this site and I have to say I'm a bit of a fan. also i love the level of book keeping done here. sorry I'm derailing my own thread a bit

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Lol I don't mind, at all. I appreciate it, really.

 

[Squid_peanut]

anyway I think we should have it that Frisk becomes more "combat determined" and thus more physically apt in relation to what their facing, and we should only use these feats as a point of reference for scaling in cases such as undyne or asgore where Frisk is "Completely determined" by their presence and desire to fight.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Indeed. As I've said, Frisk's determination usually seems to put them into tier 7 when it rises high enough, but in rare cases such as against Flowey and Asriel, it skyrockets them to unimaginable levels.

 

[Squid_peanut]

however we should scale monsters that attack together with each other at the same time as their attacks would be perseived by and effect Frisk at the same level of determination.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This is true. However, that mostly only applies for regular enemies and the occasional mini-boss.

 

[Squid_peanut]

but I think a point should be made that could handle up to asriel levels in any given battle, just that it would scale down to the tier of the opponent instead of going straight to tier 7 due to the nature of determination.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright. Sounds reasonable.

 

[Squid_peanut]

also just a thing about Frisk, while it's called the pacifist run, they aren't really a pacifist. The only real constraint of the run is not to kill people, it however says nothing about beating them up. in fact most encounters can be resolved by attcking them until they dont want to fight and then mercying them. now I think the "ideal" Frisk we'll be using on the wiki should be one that got every yellow name during the credits as that would both mean they encountered every enemy and let us know what they definatly did with enemies they only were able to face once. such that we don't get stuff like confusion on if Frisk played with greater dog or ignored them or threw the stick for them. However I don't think the yellow names need you to fofill the requirement every single time you encounter them so stuff like tsunderplane can be brought up as both aproached and beaten till detered. and even if that's not true they stuff like Asgore and Flowey till they were close to death

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

As far as I know, the requirements for yellow names only need to be met, once. I just finished up a "100%" run, and all names were yellow once I had fulfilled the requirements a single time.

 

[Squid_peanut]

awsome, do you agree with my idea/proposision then?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I do. Frisk will likely end up around 10-B physically, around 7-B with high determination, and around 2-C with their maximum demonstrated determination.

 

[WarriorWare]

Indeed. As I've said, Frisk's determination usually seems to put them into tier 7 when it rises high enough, but in rare cases such as against Flowey and Asriel, it skyrockets them to unimaginable levels.

Why tier 7, exactly?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

For beating Asgore, even in a pacifist run.

 

[WarriorWare]

Okay, but how is Asgore tier 7?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

By being vastly superior to Undyne, who herself is vastly superior to enemies like Tsunderplane, who can call down numerous bomb runs in a single turn.

 

[Squid_peanut]

whats even more terifying is that even if Frisk is especially determined theres probably around 7.3 billion humans asuming that its like modern earth, which it seems. I pity whatever force that would try to invade that verse and give them all something to fight for.

 

[Squid_peanut]

something I realized while laying in bed last night. Flowey says that because Frisk has more determination then him, he can no longer save and load, and when Flowey gets more determination then Frisk, they can no longer save and load. this seems to imply that determination prevents time manipulation seemingly inately, otherwise Flowey would still be able to load if Frisk existed. and also that when entering the underground, Frisk gained a massive boost to their determination as that's when they gain the ability to save and load. also even when they aren't the most determined, determined particularly determined individuals can retain memories from previous timelines granted they didn't die (on repeat playthroughs Undyne will somewhat recall he knowledge of a pacifist playthrough but doesn't indicate any recolection of a genocide run or Undyne The Undying.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Indeed. It seems Determination can sort of override the space-time manipulation of others, as only one person could fully abuse it, at a time.

 

[Squid_peanut]

and this is also proof that Undyne is really the only especially determined monster as no other monsters have any recolection after a time erasure

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, besides Sans, but that's for entirely different reasons.

 

[Squid_peanut]

and that I feel is another interesting jumping off point for possible battles in that combat/destructive potential of a character doesn't really denote high determination, so it begs the question of even if a character is statistically more powerfull than a determination user, would that actully count for overiding the user's determination or not. because if not, characters such as Frisk, Flowey, and Asriel could take on threats above their teir simply for the fact that they have infinite retries.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Determination = Phenomenal Cosmic Powers

Phenomenal Cosmic Powers =/= Determination

You can be as strong as an ox and have the determination of a radish.

I would argue that getting Game Over'd in a fight would count as a loss, seeing as, while it IS rewinding time, it functions more like a specialized form of reincarnation. In other words, "killing" a person who can save and load will be treated as a victory, even if the determinator will just fight some more forever. e.g. Sans is treated as the victor in his war against Chara, despite eventually losing, simply because he won the first several bouts before his foe figured him out via trial and error.

We should, however, allow things like Omega Flowey's save scumming, following the logic of gosh darn it, we are not the Fun Police!

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Determination = Phenomenal Cosmic Powers
Phenomenal Cosmic Powers =/= Determination

You can be as strong as an ox and have the determination of a radish.

I would argue that getting Game Over'd in a fight would count as a loss, seeing as, while it IS rewinding time, it functions more like a specialized form of reincarnation. In other words, "killing" a person who can save and load will be treated as a victory, even if the determinator will just fight some more forever. e.g. Sans is treated as the victor in his war against Chara, despite eventually losing, simply because he won the first several bouts before his foe figured him out via trial and error.

We should, however, allow things like Omega Flowey's save scumming, following the logic of gosh darn it, we are not the Fun Police!

This. To all of this.

For instance, COIE Anti-Monitor could kill Frisk over and over, but never kill them, permanently. However, being able to kill them once should be considered a win.

On the other hand, Omega Flowey utilizes save scumming as part of his rather douchey power set, so it's something that should be considered a part of the battle.

 

[Squid_peanut]

this sounds fair, it certainly elimenates the problem of determination making characters like Frisk only being beatable in stomps, which opens them up to far more possible battles

 

[Squid_peanut]

although I would also like to ask if we should have Frisk being able to talk someone down from fighting as counting for a win for them.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I...don't know, actually.

 

[WarriorWare]

although I would also like to ask if we should have Frisk being able to talk someone down from fighting as counting for a win for them.

The only problem with that is that you can't quantify diplomacy, and ergo can't measure how effective it is on a given target. That just might be why the human race hasn't outgrown war.

 

[Squid_peanut]

it is Frisk's main method of engagement and Frisk will only continue fighting if their enemy wishes to fight. and even if this doesn't count, Frisk making an enemies desire to fight wavor causes Frisk's attacks to be more effective and enemy attacks less effective.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Oh my... I think I just nerfed Frisk and Chara pretty hard...

With other video game heroes, we just go with the idea that, unless these characters died a plotline death, they always won. The Mario-verse acts like Mario just wins every single bout with Bowser, ignoring the countless 1-Ups we burned trying to get there.

Undertale specifically points out that the player is resetting with new knowledge of what comes up next and the game treats you as such. Because of this, we assume that Frisk and Chara both blew it a few times on their adventures and are effectively cheating, even though they're doing the exact same thing Mario is.

...

I think I caused some damage...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Potentially, though there are few encounters they're expected to almost always lose a few times (UtU, Sans, etc.). I'm fairly certain Frisk is also only ever implied to lose to Asgore if they refuse to fight back, after which they will simply go back and tell him he's already killed them before, after which he nods sadly. It's mostly implied Frisk defeated Asgore as soon as they actually started fighting back, albeit not really wanting to hurt him.