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Undertale 9-A calc doesn't work.

Theuser789 said:
Honestly I am curious about this since I tried to find this before but I couldn't, do you have any references about Papyrus doing always the same damage?
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Uh, I might redownload the game to check. Far as I recall blue ones dealt 3 and white ones 4. Funnily enough, his giant bone is his weakest attack, iirc deals only 2.
 
RethPo said:
While its true the book says that, the intent to hurt someone like i mentioned isnt inheretly cruel intent which is actually what distances you from monsters. Because as i mentioned, you can go the entire route punching people or just being a complete asshole, and it will have no effect on how you damage or take hits from monsters ever. Frisk doesnt have to exactly go full ghandi in order to not weaken monsters through intent, and even if he did, whatever he has in pacifist just isnt realistically enough to drastically weaken monsters by that much, nothing has ever implied it. Determination scaling just has more sustinance tbh, but idk if its actually necessary discussing that topic rn...
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If they attack mid-combat, most times their goal will be to harm the enemy, even if only enough to spare them eventually. That alone could very well make the attacks more harmful.

Going full genocide is way more extreme than that, it makes Papyrus' stats go down to 3, and Muffet goes to ******* -300 in DEF.
RethPo said:
That is... actually a really good point. Normally it is a one shot although frisk is normally already fighting at the level of enemies he does one shot off guard. Though jerry isnt exactly sparing you or totally off guard he doesnt have much interest in actually fighting or really defending himself. Monsters attacks and defences are built on emotion and a monster expressing mercy and getting attacked, or just not expressing anything at all is naturally going to weaken them or make enemies more deadly. So um, yeah i have to agree with you here.
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Alright.
RethPo said:
Thats would be because frisk was only strong enough at that point to fight snowdin monsters "normally" and kill them in around three hits while taking more to kill an off guard jerry. Frisk tends to also not really adapt to stone walls very well (mettaton and jerry mostly).
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Mettaton's stonewallyness is beyond what Jerry really shows, but yes.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Uh, I might redownload the game to check. Far as I recall blue ones dealt 3 and white ones 4. Funnily enough, his giant bone is his weakest attack, iirc deals only 2.
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Hmmmmm, yeah I remember playing the game and Lost Soul Papyrus doing the same damage as regular Papyrus even when I was using the Temmie Armor, I just wanted to see direct proof of this since I couldn't find it before
 
Well, the UT wiki also says that. I might get some screenshots if needed.
 
If they attack mid-combat, most times their goal will be to harm the enemy, even if only enough to spare them eventually. That alone could very well make the attacks more harmful.
Going full genocide is way more extreme than that, it makes Papyrus' stats go down to 3, and Muffet goes to ******* -300 in DEF.
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Not exactly, because the whole point is that monsters are weakened in the first place from becoming emotionally distant (something cruel intent and negative emotions cause). Hitting someone with the intent to hurt alone doesnt create that if theres other reasons beyond hurting for the sake of it. You can fight someone in a sparing match while intending to hurt them, yet theres no actual cruel intent or negative emotion in any of that.

Also i just checked and just found out it goes down to -800 smh. Which would, actually be pretty good justification for monsters muffets level or below to go down to 10-C against insane levels of bloodlust. Also mettaton neo and sans technically have higher defence than muffet on the genocide route so... make what you will of that.

So heres roughly how im seeing the tiering right now:

Sans and other weaklings = 10-B, 10-C with weaknesses (Scaling to physical stats of a training dummy)

Ruins monsters, minimally determined frisk, flowey and snowdin monsters = 9-C to at least 9-C, 10-C with weaknesses for monsters (Frisk should be comparable to chara as a child who survived a lengthy fall with nothing to cushion them and seemingly minor injury. Royal guards use street level weapons. Flowey almost kills frisk at the start of the game. Frisk is also a human posessing more physical matter which is what makes humans so canonically stronger than monsters. Hed be weaker than average humans as a child but should still at least be comparable to average monsters)

Papyrus, waterfall, hotlands and core monsters = 9-B, (Hotlands monsters use explosives, papyrus scales to ice wolfs ke. Mettaton destroys a wall, though even ignoring that since it may have been a type of stunt wall pre planned to be destroyed, they did shake the ground a bit beforehand) 9-C when refusing to fight (Jerry can be damaged by frisk while theyre at this level, papyruses stats in geno go down to 3 when sparing frisk though frisk being genocidal may also lower it) down to 10-C against genocidal bloodlust (Muffet drops to -800 late genocide route. And even early genocide bloodlusted attacks do far more damage than an off guard attacks)

Undyne, asgore, toriel and mtt = 9-B (Toriel was gonna destroy the ruins entrance. Mtt takes yellow bullets from frisk that can split his mini robots. Undyne can break concrete, shake her house, split a table in half as well as a bridge, and was somewhat damaged by a pretty long fall. Undyne also overpowers toriel and can barely knock asgore down in training) down to 9-C against bloodlust (Flowey who is a generally bloodlusted individual cant make it past asgore without frisks help and only manages to kill them from behind while theyre at low health.)

Other stuff includes photoshop flowey dropping dozens of bombs on frisk and may also be higher with size, and mettaton neo exploding, completely destroying their body unlike in a neutral run and a highly determined geno route frisk being in front of that which i mention in the comments would be high wall level. Though im not sure if this would actually scale to anyone else if acceptable. And sans gaster blasters are energy blasts, im not sure if they can be higher.
 
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RethPo said:
Though im not sure if this would actually scale to anyone else if acceptable.
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Since this actually involves my search I will argue this, but if it gets too off topic I can go to your wall, but why wouldn't it? This feat can happen in a neutral route where Frisk can fight Asgore, even if you argue killing intent weakned Asgore he would only scale above if anything
 
For the explosion of Mettaton, the obvious problem is distance and surface area.

Being only one meter away from Mettaton would make tanking that explosion way lower.

And Neo specifically steps to the side a few times, so even ignoring the default distance they'd have (in which your guess' is as good as mine) there'd be a ough distance to make it way, way lower.
 
Yeah, the 8-B calc is exagerated, I am working with the OP to fix it, it should be 9-B which is consistent
 
Sans and other weaklings = 10-B, 10-C with weaknesses (Scaling to physical stats of a training dummy)

Ruins monsters, minimally determined frisk, flowey and snowdin monsters = 9-C to at least 9-C, 10-C with weaknesses for monsters (Frisk should be comparable to chara as a child who survived a lengthy fall with nothing to cushion them and seemingly minor injury. Royal guards use street level weapons. Flowey almost kills frisk at the start of the game. Frisk is also a human posessing more physical matter which is what makes humans so canonically stronger than monsters. Hed be weaker than average humans as a child but should still at least be comparable to average monsters)

Papyrus, waterfall, hotlands and core monsters = 9-B, (Hotlands monsters use explosives, papyrus scales to ice wolfs ke. Mettaton destroys a wall, though even ignoring that since it may have been a type of stunt wall pre planned to be destroyed, they did shake the ground a bit beforehand) 9-C when refusing to fight (Jerry can be damaged by frisk while theyre at this level, papyruses stats in geno go down to 3 when sparing frisk though frisk being genocidal may also lower it) down to 10-C against genocidal bloodlust (Muffet drops to -800 late genocide route. And even early genocide bloodlusted attacks do far more damage than an off guard attacks)

Undyne, asgore, toriel and mtt = 9-B (Toriel was gonna destroy the ruins entrance. Mtt takes yellow bullets from frisk that can split his mini robots. Undyne can break concrete, shake her house, split a table in half as well as a bridge, and was somewhat damaged by a pretty long fall. Undyne also overpowers toriel and can barely knock asgore down in training) down to 9-C against bloodlust (Flowey who is a generally bloodlusted individual cant make it past asgore without frisks help and only manages to kill them from behind while theyre at low health.)

Other stuff includes photoshop flowey dropping dozens of bombs on frisk and may also be higher with size, and mettaton neo exploding, completely destroying their body unlike in a neutral run and a highly determined geno route frisk being in front of that which i mention in the comments would be high wall level. Though im not sure if this would actually scale to anyone else if acceptable. And sans gaster blasters are energy blasts, im not sure if they can be higher.
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Sooo, hows the rest of the scaling then? Mostly for the ratings for 10-B and 9-C and how much monsters are weakened. Since 9-B is pretty consistent for anybody with an attack above 20. Should leave this for reference for how long charas fall was. The hole is extremely large yet hardly even visible in the next image.
 
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Any of the monsters with 0 DEF are still going to be 10-C durability wise I'm pretty sure.

After that, probably 10-B up until the 10s in stats, where you get guys who fight with knives and swords, so 9-C from there until you reach Papyrus and those above him, which would be 9-B.
 
What about Mettaton breaking a wall or Frisk destroying Mettaton's metal drones? She splits them with one shot
 
The wall was set up to he destroyed, you can even examine it and find that it was literally a few feet deep.
 
No it wasn't, that requires assuming that Alphys brought down her wall to replace it with a set up right when she saw Frisk leave the RUINS, or that the lab was build with a set up wall, which there's no proof, plus the cutscene shows Mettaton hitting it hard enough that Frisk and Alphys both jumped as well, which wouldn't work with a fake one. You can't really enter the hole, only check it, all in all there's too many jumps to say it's a fake one
 
And how do you suggest a few feet deep hole with all sides being blocked off appeared in her laboratory?

And this is the same person who installed a jetpack into a phone in few seconds.

And yes you can enter it, what do you mean you can't?
 
Destroying mettatons drones should scale to mettaton and frisk while fighting them.

For the wall feat, idk whether its really fake or not. But its really hard to tell how thick that wall is, mostly considering mettaton would need a lot more space to move around behind that wall than frisk would.

Defences are really inconsistent though and normally attack stats seem to take priority in profiles... A lot of monsters with 0 or much lower defence outright have striking strength on that level and/or take hits from frisk normally. Unless the characters explicitely treat as a glass cannon like with mettaton neo or a stonewall.
Snowdrakes mother, jerry and glad dummys ap could be 10-C though.

And um, theres still charas fall i brought up. The hole chara fell into in the intro was massive yet barely visible in the next shot so it was clearly a long way they fell. A lengthy face first fall like that with minor injuries and dizziness has got to be around street level, athlete dead minimum which would scale to frisks.
 
Ok my mistake lol, but even then the burden of proof in this situation is on you, you need to be the one to prove your claim it's a fake wall with actual evidence, not simply supposition, the hole is weird but not weirder than Papyrus sink, you need something more solid (heh)

We see visible hitting sounds that make Alphys and Frisk jump when he hits the wall, this wouldn't happen if the wall was simply fake.

The jetpack thing is pretty irrelevant, you still need to prove she actualy replaced the wall, the common assumption when we see a wall is that it's real, it's up to you to provide evidence that it isn't real, simple conjecture doesn't work it, those two events are unrelated, she could have is not the same as she did

All in all the hole being small isn't evidence enough, plus the visuals go against it and it requires too many assumptions, plus if Alphys can destroy and replace walls so quickly as you imply why didn't she do so at the end of the MTT fight when she went back? She had time to fix Mettaton's body but not a wall that she easily did so before? It doesn't hold up man

Inb4 "'the wall is broken in a genocide route', In the Alphys neutral ending, she explains that she only started evacuating people after Undyne called her, which is true because Alphys will go with her plan if you don't kill everyone in Waterfall, what happened is that Mettaton probably broke out off-screen to help her, which would happen wall fake or not

All in all I still want solid evidence the wall is fake, but it doesn't really matter because it's just a supporting feat, if you want to argue this further with me you can go to my wall to not clog the thread, since I am arguin here to convince anyone but just expose why I believe so
 
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Neutral on whether the wall feat is useable, though could be a good supporting feat at least. But im pretty sure the steel part of steel walls is normally pretty thin and more like a sheet. And assuming frag or pulv for what mettaton did is questionable when could be the wall being broken through similarly to this. The scene was mostly set up and pre planned.
 
Ik. Well, mettatons knocking mayyy have been on the visible wall? Thered be three more walls, a floor and cieling on that thing and mettatons knocking was meant to get progressively louder likely to put on the act he were crashing through multiple of them. No explosions were visible.
 
RethPo said:
Ik. Well, mettatons knocking mayyy have been on the visible wall? Thered be three more walls, a floor and cieling on that thing and mettatons knocking was meant to get progressively louder likely to put on the act he were crashing through multiple of them.
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This is literally all conjecture with no real evidence of it, it would probably make it higher than anything
RethPo said:
No explosions were visible.
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That's why I said "explosion" in quotes, I meant the white screen flash that is used to represent explosions that is used in other areas of the game, it's not an literal explosion
 
Think someone could get some more knowledgeable staff to the thread to comment on the scaling and ig what should be done with that mettaton wall feat.
 
The whole thing was set up. We know that for certain, besides the comic timing Alphys was prepared and knew the answer to all questions, and outright says that Mettaton wasn't supposed to ask the last question.

We know nearly the whole space had to be taken up by Mettaton, and we know that there was no way to enter from the sides or from in the wall. So, he had had to have moved there, then put up the wall.

At that point, whether the wall was made to be broken down or not isn't something you can shrug off with Occam's Razor. We know it was put up premeditatedly after Mettaton moved into there.


Either way though, not sure how you would go about scaling Mettaton in his base form? His body lets him halve your HP with a point of his finger faster than you can evade at all, Temmie Armor and highest non-genocide level possible by that point.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Either way though, not sure how you would go about scaling Mettaton in his base form?
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You can fight him right before he turns into EX, and you can survive his attacks and he has a lower ATK than his EX form

About your others points you still haven't provided any proof it's a fake wall, you ignored all my other counter points and you are arguing your position as if it's already truth, as if everything you say point to your position when it doesn't, the show being set up doesn't mean the wall is fake, and neither does he been put inside there, so you still need evidence that it's fake, proof, you are just assuming, but as I said if you want to convince me you can argue at my wall, there's nothing to argue if you are going to ignore half my points
 
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I mean, if the whole scene was pre planned. And alphys set up the wall for mettaton to break through then i guess its about whether it would make more sense for her to use a fake easy to break one, or just straight up use a normal steel lab wall.

It is worth mentioning that hotland monsters would be decently into wall level anyway since explosives reach megajoules by default iirc.

And um, theres still charas fall i brought up. The hole chara fell into in the intro was massive yet barely visible in the next shot so it was clearly a long way they fell. A lengthy face first fall like that with minor injuries and dizziness has got to be around street level, athlete dead minimum which would scale to frisks.
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^Also think we need some more agreement or disagreement on dis.
 
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RethPo said:
I mean, if the whole scene was pre planned. And alphys set up the wall for mettaton to break through then i guess its about whether it would make more sense for her to use a fake easy to break one, or just straight up use a normal steel lab wall.

It is worth mentioning that hotland monsters would be decently into wall level anyway since explosives reach megajoules by default.


^Also think we need some more agreement or disagreement on dis.
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This would be at least wall wtf
 
Kay so currently. Snowdin monsters are becoming street level. Sans and glad dummy are becoming human level cuz hes a training dummy and whatnot. Papyrus and anybody around or above that level become wall level scaling to ice wolf and hotlands monsters using explosives.

Also proposing that frisk becomes street level when minimally determined scaling to charas visibly lengthy fall as a normal child. Monsters around the level of jerry (or just the wall levels) should be street level when refusing to fight since jerry while making no attempt to defend himself can be gradually damaged by frisk. And anybody weaker or comparable to muffet should go down to 10-C against genocidal bloodlust since her def stats are -800 on geno route.

Asgore and undyne could also be 9-C against extreme bloodlust since flowey who is a generally bloodlusted character cant get past asgore on his own without the help of frisk on any route and can only kill asgore at really low hp.

@Andytrenom @The_real_cal_howard @Starter_Pack @Elizhaa @Ultima_Reality @Eficiente @Crabwhale @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Therefir @Promestein @WeeklyBattles Just gonna tag this once to get things going since nobody has been already. Any of u guys willing to help out here?
 
Ive been inactive too, noice! Just made a calc for chara falling into the underground and its more than twice baseline wall level. Chara pretty much survived this head first and got up on their own with some help from asriel to walk around. So this should scale pretty easily to 9-B.
 
If downgrade would be accepted this a good opportunity to make something I wanted for a long time...


Papyrus vs Giovanni Potage, let's go!
(even though I got to try still hard to make a battle fair).
 
So if that calc gets accepted then. Everybodys wall level except for those with 0 or 1 attack (10-C to 10-B).

Papyrus up to asgore in attack potency are just listed as lower against bloodlust (Muffets attack stats are still only 8 and papyruses drops to 3 when sparing frisk at the same time). While in durability theyd all be lower when refusing to fight (down to really low end wall level) and Varying down to 10-C against bloodlust. While monsters in snowdin and ruins can just vary down to 10-C against bloodlust and when not wanting to fight since their base stats are already far lower.

This all kinda needs more staff agreement though.
 
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