Ultra Series Heisei Era Upgrades

[Peter1129]

So turns out there's a few stuff I missed in the revision thread months ago

Edit: So it turns out I didn't just miss a few, I missed a whole lot of stuff that's important to the scaling of the Heisei Era.

Hudra (4-A?)

So first of all we have Hudra who was stated to have created Dream Space Lumagion. An asteroid field dimension that is filled with a whole bunch of asteroids larger than Ultras along with stars and nebulas in the background of this dimension.

So if I remember correctly creating a dimension filled with stars would be 4-A correct? Though I'm not sure what end Hudra's 4-A would be as his dimension doesn't seem to have enough stars to fit the requirement for the starry sky 4-A calc. Although it does have nebulas so maybe it's still somewhere in 4-A.

Tornado Tiga was able to beat Hudra so this would scale to Multi Tiga who is stronger than Tornado Tiga. And since Multi Tiga is the weakest main Ultra in the Heisei Era all other Ultras in the Heisei Era would scale to this.

According to the Creation Feats page.

• Even though there is concrete evidence for pocket reality creations to qualify as an Attack Potency feat; it should not be assumed to scale to physical statistics without some notable scaling reasons. Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.

In the Ultra Series it’s shown that the users of pocket dimensions have to maintain the dimension they created with their own energy. Zero for example created the pocket dimension Shining Field which drains a lot of his energy and maintained it for 10 years and was left without energy after doing that and traveling between universes.

Nexus was also able to create pocket dimensions called Meta Fields that he maintains himself. When he weakens the Meta Field also starts to break apart.

So for Hudra it should be the same. The dimension is maintained with his own energy and should thus scale to his normal stats.

Faivas (At least 4-A, likely 3-C)

So I completely forgot that Faivas was a thing that existed. She's an artificial intelligence that could create things made of data that can be interacted with by normal humans.

Here we see that it could create an entire city that interacts with reality as well as disappear upon its defeat? Here we see that it can create a mountain that nearly made the GUTS Wing crash. Here we see that it can create and destroy entire virtual worlds.

And this brings me to my main point. Faivas can create a world filled with planets, stars, nebulas, and even a galaxy. The same world that she proceeded to just up and destroy a few minutes later.

This means that Faivas should scale to the starry sky 4-A calc as well as get a likely 3-C for having a galaxy in one of the world it created.

Multi Tiga defeated Faivas so this would scale to everybody in the Heisei Era.

Mokian and Shinigami (At least 4-A, likely 3-C or just 3-C)

Didn't even realize this was a thing but the inside of Mokian is a separate dimension filled with a bunch of planets, stars, nebulas, and what seems to be galaxies.

Shinigami can manipulate the inside of Mokian

Gaia V2 despite being inferior can still hurt Mokian as well as fight Shinigami in his true form

Zoffy (Possibly 3-B)

After all that we have these statements that have to do with the Ultra Brothers in the Heisei Era.

Zoffy's M87 Beam at full power was stated to be stronger than Father of Ultra’s beam even during the Showa Era.

Father of Ultra matched and defeated Alien Empera who is the strongest enemy in Ultra history during the Heisei Era and therefore stronger than Juda who is baseline 3-A.

According to the databook, there's a theory that Zoffy limits his M87 Beam to less than a tenth of its full power when he uses it on Earth.

U-Killersaurus Neo's tentacles can tank it at <10% for a while before breaking. Heisei Era Ultra Brothers can all break through the tentacles that <10% M87 couldn't do instantly.

So this would mean Heisei Era Ultra Brothers would be stronger than the <10% M87 Beam and thus this would make them and all those that scale in the Heisei Era have a possibly 3-B.

This also kinda fits with Hikari (Who was one of the stronger Ultra Brothers during the Heisei Era) tanking a few casual attacks from Alien Empera and later on managing to nick Alien Empera (3-A) with the last strength in an enraged state. As well as in Galaxy Crisis Era when Rei's Gomora who became a higher end of 3-B became strong enough to contend with Armored Darkness who is equal to Alien Empera.

The 3-B value that the Heisei Ultra Brothers scale to would be roughly 1/10 of 3-A. The other characters would just upscale from that.

Scaling

Just in case I'll also note the characters that scale.

At least 4-A, likely 3-C: Every Ultra, monster, and alien in Ultraman Tiga and Ultraman Dyna (Scales to or above Faivas)

At least 4-A, likely 3-C or just 3-C: Every Ultra, monster, and alien from Ultraman Gaia onwards (Scales far above Faivas but below Mokian but not completely inferior)

Possibly 3-B: Heisei Era Ultra Brothers, monsters and aliens from Ultraman Mebius, monsters from Mega Monster Battle (Scales to and above the <10% M87 Beam)

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Just gonna drop in to say I'm in agreement with the proposal. Given the ratings we already have, this isn't too farfetched and at least should smoothen the jump from 4-B to 3-A a bit better.

 

[Peter1129]

Early bump

 

[Tripleaccel555]

Just agree with this because that dimension countain asteroid and stars.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Nothing much I can add on the update except that any potential counters is most likely PIS. That said, I agree.

 

[Tripleaccel555]

I actually can see someone downplayed this feat with the moment Irina use the boom that thing destroy illusion space.

 

[Peter1129]

She didn't destroy the space with the bomb though. It just blasted Hudra and Tiga out of the space when they were on the asteroid. And I assume that the explosion just surprised Hudra that caused him to open a portal to send himself and Tiga back to R'lyeh Island from the asteroid. Cause we clearly see them fly across the dimension and pass by asteroids far larger than they are. So there's no way the dimension was only as big as the asteroid.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Creating a starry sky realm doesn't always equate to AP, as it is more a hax thing.

 

[Tripleaccel555]

Creating a starry sky realm doesn't always equate to AP, as it is more a hax thing.

Disagree.

There many feat similar like this. For example there a series called symphogear where alca nouise created a pocked dimension who can countain planet and countless star which is 4A. That why created pocked universe scaled to AP.

 

[Peter1129]

Creating a starry sky realm doesn't always equate to AP, as it is more a hax thing.

According to the Creation Feats page.

• Even though there is concrete evidence for pocket reality creations to qualify as an Attack Potency feat; it should not be assumed to scale to physical statistics without some notable scaling reasons. Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes.

In the Ultra Series it’s shown that the users of pocket dimensions have to maintain the dimension they created with their own energy. Zero for example created the pocket dimension Shining Field which drains a lot of his energy and maintained it for 10 years and was left without energy after doing that and traveling between universes.

Nexus was also able to create pocket dimensions called Meta Fields that he maintains himself. When he weakens the Meta Field also starts to break apart.

So for Hudra it should be the same the dimension is maintained with his own energy and should thus scale to his normal stats.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

I see ok... Then is fine.

 

[Tripleaccel555]

Bumb

 

[Peter1129]

I have updated the op with even more stuff that I missed in the Heisei Era.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It does follow the things regarding the universal energy systems looking at the sources in the OP, so I think the AP feats being proposed here are legit.

 

[Peter1129]

It does follow the things regarding the universal energy systems looking at the sources in the OP, so I think the AP feats being proposed here are legit.

Thanks for the reply. Also do you think the dimension in Mokian’s body is just straight up 3-C or is it at least 4-A, likely 3-C? Cause I actually can’t tell whether or not those in it are nebulas or galaxies. And I think nebulas are supposed to be smaller than galaxies right?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Nebula are basically interstellar bodies of gas, so the size of it would warrant 4-A at minimum; but they're not quite galaxy sized to my knowledge. Though if a galaxy in the background is visible and appears to be that far away, I might argue that it could be 3-B territory. If that galaxy is the size of the Andromeda galaxy and angsizing would mean it's about 2.5 million lightyears away, that's the baseline for 3-B.

 

[Peter1129]

I see. Well in your opinion for this scene here do these two look more like nebulas or galaxies to you?

And honestly I’m not sure if angsizing would work in these cases. Cause the perspective of all the celestial objects here are kinda weird. Even the asteroids in Hudra’s dimension look small when Tiga and Hudra flew past them. Even though we clearly see it being way bigger when they are when they land on the asteroids.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Those looks more like Nebulae, or at least the top one. The bottom one I'm not sure. It's the yellow spiral in this scene that looked like a galaxy imo however.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah those were basically my thoughts on them as well.

Oh yeah that one in Faivas’ world is definitely a galaxy. I guess I should probably post it on the calc request thread and get somebody to calc it to see if it really could turn out to be near 3-B like you said.

 

[Tripleaccel555]

Because you add Falivas and Gaia stuff Here my response again about this thread.

I agree with Tiga stuff because Tiga not just landed into asteroid who bigger size than him we also see interstellar travel between him and Hudra. That why i support about this.

I disagree about Gaia feat because that planet is small compare to the size of Fujimeya himself.

Look at Video you post around 9:16 - 9:56. That the point where i disagree about Gaia feat.

What do you think about this , @Mr.Cutlery ?

 

[Peter1129]

Isn’t that just the perspective being messed up? Cause for the Hudra’s Lumagion space around 1:01 to 1:11 we see that Hudra and Tiga at times look even bigger than the asteroids that are supposed to be way bigger than they are.

Also if the Faivas stuff turns out to be high end 3-C or near 3-B the Mokian stuff will probably just be a supporting feat like Hudra’s dimension creation as we aren’t entirely sure if the inside of Mokian’s body had a galaxy or nebula.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

As for Mokina, there's definitely some skewed perspective going on, but at the same time, we did get an establishing shot that shows us the space is indeed bigger than we thought so the nebulas in the background might be pretty legit. There is indeed the weird planets that passed in front of Fujimiya, but again, those seem pretty inconsequential when you count everything else.

One of the star clusters at the bottom side of Mokian's dimension does look a bit like a galaxy. But I can't say for sure.

All in all, the 4-A stuff seem to be pretty consistent, and since the databooks themselves have mentioned creation as part of the method involved in them, I don't see much problem in this.

 

[Tripleaccel555]

Isn’t that just the perspective being messed up? Cause for the Hudra’s Lumagion space around 1:01 to 1:11 we see that Hudra and Tiga at times look even bigger than the asteroids that are supposed to be way bigger than they are.

Also if the Faivas stuff turns out to be high end 3-C or near 3-B the Mokian stuff will probably just be a supporting feat like Hudra’s dimension creation as we aren’t entirely sure if the inside of Mokian’s body had a galaxy or nebula.

I can understand about perpective being messed up but it's hard to analysis that feat because we don't see any character landed on a planet in pocked dimension just like Tiga and Hudra fight in one of Asteroid.

The reason why i accept Tiga for 4A because , Hudra created dimension which is countain countless star , interstellar travel and asteroids which at times dwarfs them in size.

In order to solved this threat someone need to call another member who experience about this stuff or Mokian databook.

 

[Peter1129]

So if I'm getting this correctly you only think Hudra's dimension creation is 4-A because they are shown to flying what seems to be interstellar distances. While Mokian you don't accept it because of perspective issues that make the planets look small. Wait what about the Faivas stuff then? It doesn't seem like you have talked about Faivas whatsoever this entire time.

I already called DontTalk yesterday. Just need to wait for him to come on and respond. And like I said on the discussion thread. Mokian is a really obscure one time monster. It's databook entry only talks about how it was going to destroy Earth via the monopole in Ultraman Gaia.

 

[Tripleaccel555]

So if I'm getting this correctly you only think Hudra's dimension creation is 4-A because they are shown to flying what seems to be interstellar distances.

Pretty much.

While Mokian you don't accept it because of perspective issues that make the planets look small

Lack of information also problem.

Wait what about the Faivas stuff then? It doesn't seem like you have talked about Faivas whatsoever this entire time.

Another problem similar like Gaia. Both of them have same problem which is lack of information such like databook.

 

[Peter1129]

Ahh I see. Well that's the thing with one time monsters that aren't from a movie. There are never much information on them. Faivas' databook entry seems to says she can create these spaces but that's about it.

 

[Tripleaccel555]

I have personal issue with pocked dimension. Not only Ultraman but also other series.

The problem with pocked dimension who countain countless star , sun or galaxy the character who get trapped in that dimension don't have reaction about it. I mean there should reaction such like 'Where am i ? Why galaxy is here ?'

If someone can made pocked dimension with countless star , sun or galaxy but most stronger threat until end of series only planet level that pocked dimension feat should be discarded.

Lack of information such like databook or statement from character is problem.

 

[Peter1129]

I have personal issue with pocked dimension. Not only Ultraman but also other series.

The problem with pocked dimension who countain countless star , sun or galaxy the character who get trapped in that dimension don't have reaction about it.

I mean there should reaction such like 'Where am i ? Why galaxy is here ? ' not to mention the strongest threat in the end of series only can destroy planet.

Lack of information such like databook or statement from character is problem.

Ahh I see. Although to be fair the thing with the strongest threat end of series being only able to destroy the planet is kinda a thing even with other series. Like we clearly see them having higher feats but than they don't do anything as crazy later on even when they get stronger.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

BUMP!!

 

[Peter1129]

So just asking these are basically fine to use right? Majority of people agreed including a staff. And since DDM did say Faivas’ dimension clearly has a galaxy I guess the 4-A low end is unneeded now right? So I guess we just place Faivas and those that scale to her at baseline 3-C since there’s no calc for the dimension right?

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Personally I'd say the 4-A end is the safest even if staff agreement covered the Faivas one. 3-C still sticks given how casually she did it, but at the same time, it's almost far beyond the other feats' showing so possibly may be the closest we can put it given how it's just one. Though I also believe Mokian's dimension may have a galaxy, particularly the cluster of lights at the bottom of its establishing shot.

 

[Peter1129]

Alright so we still keep the starry sky 4-A low end just in case. So

At least 4-A, likely 4-A+ for those that scale to Tiga Dark

At least 4-A, likely 3-C for those that scale to or above Faivas

At least 4-A+, likely 3-C+, possibly 3-B for those that scale to Burning Brave Mebius

At least 3-C, likely 3-B for those that scale to Eclipse Cosmos

At least 3-C, likely 3-B, possibly 3-A for those that scale to Gloker Bishop

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Wait, why do the Cosmos ones scale immediately to 3-C?

 

[Peter1129]

Eclipse Cosmos is noted to be a fusion form of Luna and Corona and its counterpart Chaos Ultraman Calamity was noted to be several ten times (数十倍) at least 30x stronger than Chaos Ultraman who is the counterpart of Corona Cosmos.

Eclipse Cosmos 30x> Corona Cosmos > Gaia SV 3x> Gaia V2 > King Goldras > Goldras 30x> Silvergon > Power Tiga 3x> Multi Tiga >≈ Faivas (16.88 ExaFoe)

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

How about Gaia, Agul, and the others who scaled from them?

 

[Peter1129]

They would still be at least 4-A, likely 3-C just a higher end of it. They aren't high enough to warrant the + sign or upscale to the next tier. Currently updating my sandbox with the scaling blog. I'll show you guys how the scaling will look after I'm done.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, took a glance over the OP (haven't read all of the replies). Some of the quotes in that probably need a translation to english to be comprehensible for me.

Taken at face value the 4-A stuff is probably fine (provided the attacks were tanked).

Not so sure about the Faivas stuff. Their Data thing sounds like a separate type of ability from the 4-A stuff and would hence require separate evidence of using the same energy source as for attacks. Furthermore, if we are talking about digital worlds, I would want evidence of that being actual planets and not just something made to resemble a night sky, in the same way the sky in a video game is just a picture and not actually to scale.

For the Mokian and Shinigami stuff we only see him move several planets in there, no? Being able to manipulate the inside and being able to create/destroy everything in it at once are not necessarily the same, IMO. Edit: And aren't some of those planets smaller than the characters standing there as they fly by?

Possibly 3-B stuff sounds ok, I guess.

 

[Peter1129]

Here we see that Tornado Tiga can tank and absorb Hudra's special move and later defeat him after evolving into Blast Tiga. And scaling wise

Original Tiga Dark > Multi Tiga > Blast Tiga > Tornado Tiga > Daigo Tiga Dark

Daigo Tiga Dark was noted to only be half as strong as the original Tiga Dark. So no matter what Tiga would still scale to Hudra in all his forms.

The Hudra statement is basically saying

He's a dark giant with great speed and flight capabilities as well as him being ruthless in nature. He creates Dream Space Lumagion to challenge Tiga. His special move his a tornado-shaped ray Hugust, emitted from his right arm.

The stuff with Zoffy is basically exactly what it said in the op. But if you want the full thing

The M87 Beam is the deadly beam emitted by Zoffy, the captain of the Inter Galactic Defense Force. It seems to be related to the "M78 Nebula" where the Ultraman's homeworld the "Land of Light" is located but that is irrelevant. The name comes from the origin of the "870,000 degree beam of miracle destructive power" because it exerts more power than the beam of Father of Ultra who was proud of being the strongest until now.

For the theory part of the M87 Beam the last sentence said

According to one theory, it is said that the beam is so strong that he limits it to less than a tenth of its power when on Earth.

I see so you disagree with the Faivas creation stuff scaling because of it possibly just being a background and not actual celestial objects. Understandable and I guess I don't have anyway to prove they are literal other than the fact that Faivas has created actual cities and mountains and stuff out of nowhere.

Yeah Tripleaccel555 said the same thing but we just chocked that up perspective issue as we also see the asteroids being really small compared to Tiga and Hudra when they are flying past it but when they land on it it's shown that the asteroids are far larger than they are.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

@Peter1129
Ah, I suppose that makes sense.

I guess that means 3-C is out of the window? I'm also unable to justify how well data stuff is integrated into the real world in the context provided. Oh, but just to add on to some of the feats, Tiga does survive and later essentially tanks Hudra's attacks to the point he was able to absorb them.

Also touching on the statement provided, I can safely confirm it does say "To challenge Tiga, he creates the Dream Space Lumagion".

And as for Mokian and Shinigami, the latter actually melts away the dimension which Fujimiya responds by transforming, hinting to his Ultra form as being able to survive the destruction of the realm. As for its size, I'd wager them even providing a zoom out establishing shot means that it was an actual realm of starry skies and nebulas may have been meant to show us that it's a genuine separate dimension.

 

[Peter1129]

Not just 3-C I think starry sky 4-A might be out the window as well for Pre-Ultraman Gaia characters if Faivas’ stuff isn’t usable. Hudra’s dimension doesn’t have thousands of stars like the starry sky calc says and I’m not sure what lvl of 4-A containing nebulas are so I don’t think his dimension fits the requirements for that lvl of 4-A. So either somebody makes a calc for us on Hudra’s dimension or we default it to baseline 4-A.

And if Mokian’s dimension is still usable than that means at least those at Gaia V2’s lvl can scale to the starry sky 4-A and 3-C. And Gaia V1 lvl can downscale from being half as strong as Gaia V2.