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Übel vs Satoru Gojo (15-8-0)

Shadow_x007x said:
This is completely unnecessary when you can imagine that there was no infinity in the first place, and Subjective Reality just removes.
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You are overselling her SJ to the max lmao. Please show her having the extent to ignore infinite distance with her SJ.
 
You guys kinda need proof SR can mess with space itself (or stuff at that level like time) to say it removes limitless

Edit: Her paralysis wont work, she cannot see Gojos eyes (if he has the blindfold)
 
karo_senpaii said:
are you saying because she does not know infinity is there the slash would not travel from where she is to gojo but will somehow teleport directly to him?
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Yeah pretty much. Subjective reality is kinda wanky. If she envisions it as something realistically possible, it happens because that's how magic works in Frieren. Though that's the caveat, she has to actually think it's fine, possible. Just because a mage envisions themselves killing a dude, that doesn't inherently work if they're just coping and they subconsciously believe they can't.

Like from her PoV, swinging and him getting bisected would be easy to imagine, to her, he's just standing there, there shouldn't BE any reason for her slash not to connect, at least from what she knows.
Reality is changed to her viewpoint from that point on. As long as he's not like in a alt dimension, which I think he is? I don't think it's like Hit's dimension or whatever? Funny meme is meme.
karo_senpaii said:
it's still a big NLF and in verse mechanics don't apply.
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They do though? Why wouldn't verse mechanics not apply, it's why it's listed to begin with.
It IS a NLF, I agree, but idk what I'm supposed to do about that, the point in context is that it IS a NLF and that's why it's dumb as shit, she shouldn't be able to just ignore stuff like she does, but she does, it spits in the face of what should be possible and physics.

Now, obviously there comes a point where like, yeah that ain't gonna fly, but all Infinity is, is a distance between them. And one that doesn't inherently exist in full, if she could just bypass that entirely with the arc of her swing, because she doesn't acknowledge it exists (Which mind you, is the case, Gojo would be situated between the start of her arc, and the end of her swing spatially, it's that his placement makes the gap inbetween her Point A and Point B infinite, but if she were to bypass that and simply just swing...), I don't see why it shouldn't be the case. Not like Infinity is 4D slop. Unless it is? In which case yeah it wouldn't work.
karo_senpaii said:
frieiren verse ain't that complex. Let's simply limit her subjective reality to what is shown. Also her Subjective reality specifically applies to cutting stuff and not transversing distances, coz you know infinity isn't a shield but just space.
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Her Subjective Reality is stated to be able to overcome any defenses as long as she can evision it being cut. It's why she accidentally cut that one dude who had like every defensive spell baked into his shit, and she just bypassed it because "it's cloth, cloth should be cut?".

If, this is true, and to be taken at face value, in a verse where spatial warping spells and what not very well exist, I don't see that really being a thing. They wouldn't glaze this specific attack with unprecedent glazing, if something a good chunk of mages can do, would just neg it.

Frieren as a verse isn't that complex, but subjective reality is still very much a power they have.
LIFE_OF_KING said:
He did that once man
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Once is enough, why would he go balls to the wall against some teen chick? She isn't exactly a threat outside of an attack he'd have no idea would exist. Like as said, Gojo would obliterate her if he wanted her dead right away, but in character is in character.

i don't really care for this match tho, prob not arguing this much, the other goons can.
 
BadSystems said:
Infinity doesn't create an infinite space, it infinitely sub-divides finite space. I think. Regardless, unless Gojo explains it to her it'll probably still affect Reelseiden, so she needs to use Sorganeil.
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Oh, then it just doesn't matter. Functionally infinite in effect, isn't the same as actual infinite distance.
Probably why spatial cutting slop negs it.
 
Chariot190 said:
Yeah pretty much. Subjective reality is kinda wanky. If she envisions it as something realistically possible, it happens because that's how magic works in Frieren. Though that's the caveat, she has to actually think it's fine, possible. Just because a mage envisions themselves killing a dude, that doesn't inherently work if they're just coping and they subconsciously believe they can't.

Like from her PoV, swinging and him getting bisected would be easy to imagine, to her, he's just standing there, there shouldn't BE any reason for her slash not to connect, at least from what she knows.
Reality is changed to her viewpoint from that point on. As long as he's not like in a alt dimension, which I think he is? I don't think it's like Hit's dimension or whatever? Funny meme is meme.

They do though? Why wouldn't verse mechanics not apply, it's why it's listed to begin with.
It IS a NLF, I agree, but idk what I'm supposed to do about that, the point in context is that it IS a NLF and that's why it's dumb as shit, she shouldn't be able to just ignore stuff like she does, but she does, it spits in the face of what should be possible and physics.

Now, obviously there comes a point where like, yeah that ain't gonna fly, but all Infinity is, is a distance between them. And one that doesn't inherently exist in full, if she could just bypass that entirely with the arc of her swing, because she doesn't acknowledge it exists (Which mind you, is the case, Gojo would be situated between the start of her arc, and the end of her swing spatially, it's that his placement makes the gap inbetween her Point A and Point B infinite, but if she were to bypass that and simply just swing...), I don't see why it shouldn't be the case. Not like Infinity is 4D slop. Unless it is? In which case yeah it wouldn't work.

Her Subjective Reality is stated to be able to overcome any defenses as long as she can evision it being cut. It's why she accidentally cut that one dude who had like every defensive spell baked into his shit, and she just bypassed it because "it's cloth, cloth should be cut?".

If, this is true, and to be taken at face value, in a verse where spatial warping spells and what not very well exist, I don't see that really being a thing. They wouldn't glaze this specific attack with unprecedent glazing, if something a good chunk of mages can do, would just neg it.

Frieren as a verse isn't that complex, but subjective reality is still very much a power they have.

Once is enough, why would he go balls to the wall against some teen chick? She isn't exactly a threat outside of an attack he'd have no idea would exist. Like as said, Gojo would obliterate her if he wanted her dead right away, but in character is in character.

i don't really care for this match tho, prob not arguing this much, the other goons can.
Click to expand...
I get your explanation but you still haven't tackled the problem. Let me rephrase what i mean by inverse mechanics. You should be familiar with opm right? so garou just kinda finds a way to survive attacks from enemies thousand of times stronger than him howbeit taking heavy damage. But we're not gonna pit garou against someone thousands of times stronger than him and put (he can't go down due to not going down against similar opponent in verse) as a reason for winning when clearly a blow would turn him to paste via site standards. we'd only use that as reasoning if the gap is much but still below or around one-shot value. That's what i mean.

The problem here is SJ on site is limited to level of feats on site irrespective of in verse statements like "cut anything she believes she can". SO, I simply believe she has no feats displayed similar to cutting something like limitless. Your job is to convince me otherwise and not just repeat the statement to me
 
Chariot190 said:
Once is enough, why would he go balls to the wall against some teen chick? She isn't exactly a threat outside of an attack he'd have no idea would exist. Like as said, Gojo would obliterate her if he wanted her dead right away, but in character is in character.
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Well, by SBA
Each character will view their opponents as enemies, who they have to assume wish to cause them severe harm such that losing could have any range of dire consequences. The characters will assume their opponents have not been forced into battle. They are assumed to have decided from free will to fight and are not excused by a just cause, difficult times or otherwise exonerating circumstances. Furthermore, the situation is assumed one where the opponents are not protected by social norms or consequences, such as being a civilian protected by law.
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Any enemy that Gojo REALLY wants to cause defeat he does not allow the opponent to get close by using either BLUE or RED.

I mean, not even Ubel likes to kill in a instant. She loves try to relate to the oppoenent and copy their spell.
 
karo_senpaii said:
I get your explanation but you still haven't tackled the problem. Let me rephrase what i mean by inverse mechanics. You should be familiar with opm right? so garou just kinda finds a way to survive attacks from enemies thousand of times stronger than him howbeit taking heavy damage. But we're not gonna pit garou against someone thousands of times stronger than him and put (he can't go down due to not going down against similar opponent in verse) as a reason for winning when clearly a blow would turn him to paste via site standards. we'd only use that as reasoning if the gap is much but still below or around one-shot value. That's what i mean.

The problem here is SJ on site is limited to level of feats on site irrespective of in verse statements like "cut anything she believes she can". SO, I simply believe she has no feats displayed similar to cutting something like limitless. Your job is to convince me otherwise and not just repeat the statement to me
Click to expand...
My job isn't to convince you of shit lad. I don't care what you think. You can vote for whoever ya want my dude idc. You do you.

Anyway nah this don't matter, infinitely dividing finite space isn't infinite distance. He's still there, he's still like, however far away he is, it's just his ability divides space so it becomes functionally infinite when a detrimental force is acted upon it.

This is why he can still see, hear sound, yadda yadda. If Ubel is just ignoring it, it isn't like she can't physically reach him because the gap is a fucktrillion galaxies away, he's still just there, she's just ignoring the ability that makes it infinite in function, not mechanically.

Probably why shit like spatial cutting works, when they ignore the ability, they don't need to cover infinite kilometers if they ignore the division. By that logic you'd need infinite speed and infinite range even if you bypass infinity.

You're essentially conflating function with mechanics.

Gojo is still spatially present at Point B a literal, let's say 10m away. Ubel's swing moves from Point A to Point C. Normally, Gojo's ability would make it so she can not move past Point B as the finite distance between them (This is important), is divided infinitely, (kinda like Green, Green, Grass of Home from JoJo I'd assume?). But because she just doesn't give a shit, reality is changed to her perception, her swing ignores the rapidly divided FINITE distance, treats it like it actually is as opposed to how it should be, and just cuts.

Unless his ability doesn't divide finite distance, but looking into it that seems to be the case? Would explain why some stuff like sound and light can just bypass it because he wants it to, but if there was a literal infinite gap, it wouldn't matter if he wanted it to or not.
 
karo_senpaii said:
Let me rephrase what i mean by inverse mechanics.
Click to expand...
I could understand this take if Infinity was like higher-dimensional, or conceptual, or manipulated core laws of reality, but it's really not an ability that is that extreme. It just converts finite space into infinite fractions to prevent attacks from reaching him. Ignoring that effect with Reelseiden is completely reasonable, given Übel has been shown to ignore effects that stop her magic despite originating from the thing she is trying to cut (ignoring the logical causal relationship).

And again I raise Sorganeil, which just renders Gojo completely helpless as soon as she casts it. Jujutsu and Magic certainly aren't different enough to say it'd be unaffected by the spell's sealing, both are just energy within people that fuel supernatural techniques.
 
If Garou can survive attacks thousands of times stronger than him in verse then he or his abilities scale to those attacks. Whats all this gymnastics for. There’s no reason site standards should negate his abilities or Durability if he didn’t use an ability or skill to survive those attacks (assuming what you’re saying is true, I’ve watched OPM but don’t scale it much)
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Well, by SBA

Any enemy that Gojo REALLY wants to cause defeat he does not allow the opponent to get close by using either BLUE or RED.
Click to expand...
He's still in character, he wants to defeat her, but he's still gonna be acting like how he would against a teenager he doesn't perceive as a threat.

He would do so, but he would do so acting like how he would against such a character. Much the same way Batman in character isn't gonna kill someone even if he wants them defeated or how Goku in character will still job like a dumbass (Super only, his ass was NOT like that in Z ong).
LIFE_OF_KING said:
I mean, not even Ubel likes to kill in a instant. She loves try to relate to the oppoenent and copy their spell.
Click to expand...
She kills a bunch of dudes like bandits. She's just somewhat sympathetic. She won't do so if she thinks someone is after her life. She would need to know Gojo has unique magic for her to maybe want that, but she would know he doesn't because mana detection would tell her, what his ass is doing, AIN'T magic.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
If Garou can survive attacks thousands of times stronger than him in verse then he or his abilities scale to those attacks.
Click to expand...
I think what he is trying to say is Garou isn't some brick wall and that said opponents are indeed 1000's times stronger and the reason Garou just doesn't die is the logic of the verse (bad writing) , quite similar to some other verses where there opponent is 100 of times stronger and yet the opposition don't get one shoted despite said "being" being 100 time stronger enemy not really holding back at all.
 
Chariot190 said:
Her subjective reality might come into play. From her perception, he's standing right there, she wouldn't realize that she isn't supposed to be able to hit him. She's just go "oh damn, he's right there", and swing, and her blade would connect because that's the reality she envisioned.

She basically just like, wouldn't actually interact with infinity from the start as she wouldn't recognize it's there to interact it with from the beginning.

For reference if this seems kinda NLF, spatial yap isn't exactly a foreign concept to Frieren as a verse, and her magic is supposedly NLF even in context as long as she thinks it's meant to be cut.
Click to expand...
You would need proof of that though, because she has only shown to ignore durability, not distance or any other effect.

You are just assuming things though, without any actual proof that she would.

For reference if this seems kinda NLF, durability negation yap isn't exactly a foreign concept to JJK as a verse, and his cursed technique is supposedly NLF even in context as long as there's no sure hit or Mahoraga adaptation. This is exactly how you sounded.


I'm one of the first people that enjoy mocking Gojo and all of that, really, but even to me this level of logic jump and wanking to mock him is too much.
 
Yeah voting Gojo. He hits her with four blues or just teleports and one taps her before she even tries to swing her spear.
 
ShionAH said:
Yeah voting Gojo, I doubt something as mundane as that can bypass Infinity. You kinda have to have Spatial Manipulation at the very least
Click to expand...
Being able to ignore logical reasoning and causal relationships is mundane?
Arkenis said:
You are overselling her SJ to the max lmao. Please show her having the extent to ignore infinite distance with her SJ.
Click to expand...
I don't know if this is confusion or what. Those voting Gojo think we FRA'd the shit out of Ubel cause of some meme or not understanding both sides powers but most of us did understand it.

Reelseiden isn't what is OP, it's specifically Ubels SR. Defensive magic is able to block her slashes specifically because she can't visualize cutting it.
Burg and Sense are first class mages who have even greater defensive spells woven into their cloak and hair respectively.
Ubel can see the defense spells in them and understands she cannot cut them but her magic still cuts it for the sole reason that even with the spells, to her it is just cloth and hair and those are things to be cut so her attacks ignore the defense and cut them.

"You all are viewing infinity as some barrier". Her SR is OP enough that she can ignore logical reasoning and causal relationships. Whether Gojo explains neutral infinity or not, the fact it isn't a barrier she can recognize as defensive magic means he's ******. Gojo can go ahead and explain or not explain it. Infinity just sub divides infinite space an infinite amount of times, it doesn't actually create infinite distance, at the end of the day, the distance between him and Ubel is finite. Ubel shall see the distance between them is finite and since infinity isn't a barrier she would only see air between them so her Reelseiden will travel as normal even with Gojo's neutral infinity subdividing space.

No one is saying Reelseiden will spawn on Gojo or teleport to him, it will just traverse the space like normal. She doesn't need to believe she can cut or cross an infinite distance, she just has to know the only thing between her and Gojo is air and a few meters. Y'all are the one's who don't understand Ubel
 
ShionAH said:
You guys kinda need proof SR can mess with space itself (or stuff at that level like time) to say it removes limitless
Click to expand...
She doesn't remove it, she ignores it cause it's not infinite distance in the end. If infinity actually placed her infinitely far away then she can't do anything about it
ShionAH said:
Edit: Her paralysis wont work, she cannot see Gojos eyes (if he has the blindfold)
Click to expand...
Are you just being obtuse? You're kinda implying everyone in frieren walks around in their birthday suit cause Sorganeil works on them.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
Reelseiden isn't what is OP, it's specifically Ubels SR. Defensive magic is able to block her slashes specifically because she can't visualize cutting it.
Burg and Sense are first class mages who have even greater defensive spells woven into their cloak and hair respectively.
Ubel can see the defense spells in them and understands she cannot cut them but her magic still cuts it for the sole reason that even with the spells, to her it is just cloth and hair and those are things to be cut so her attacks ignore the defense and cut them.
Click to expand...
Okay that's understood. We've been talking about SR so far.

Tatsumi504 said:
"You all are viewing infinity as some barrier". Her SR is OP enough that she can ignore logical reasoning and causal relationships. Whether Gojo explains neutral infinity or not, the fact it isn't a barrier she can recognize as defensive magic means he's ******. Gojo can go ahead and explain or not explain it. Infinity just sub divides infinite space an infinite amount of times, it doesn't actually create infinite distance, at the end of the day, the distance between him and Ubel is finite. Ubel shall see the distance between them is finite and since infinity isn't a barrier she would only see air between them so her Reelseiden will travel as normal even with Gojo's neutral infinity subdividing space.
Click to expand...
Disagree but it doesn't change my vote. She still has to swing her spear closer than Gojo hitting her with blues and stop her from moving.
 
Expectro2000xxx said:
You would need proof of that though, because she has only shown to ignore durability, not distance or any other effect.

You are just assuming things though, without any actual proof that she would.
Click to expand...
She literally can ignore abilities as a whole, not just durability.

Infinity isn't true distance.
Expectro2000xxx said:
For reference if this seems kinda NLF, durability negation yap isn't exactly a foreign concept to JJK as a verse, and his cursed technique is supposedly NLF even in context as long as there's no sure hit or Mahoraga adaptation. This is exactly how you sounded.
Click to expand...
I do not care, one has subjective reality for it, they do not.
Also Mahoraga is a good example of JJK taking NLF and running with it, and us the wiki going "yep sure sounds cool".
Expectro2000xxx said:
I'm one of the first people that enjoy mocking Gojo and all of that, really, but even to me this level of logic jump and wanking to mock him is too much.
Click to expand...
Nobody is mocking him.
Nobody is wanking, it's just how it works, I didn't write the profile, shit ain't on me.

She has the ability to manipulate reality to her subjective view based on what she believes, this enables her to explicitly bypass abilities, defenses, and a whole bunch of stuff to where it's deemed utterly illogical in context, in a verse with spatial yap as something that isn't even that uncommon. Gojo's infinity, isn't true infinity, it is simply the division of finite space, the actual space between them is finite, it is just rendered functionally infinite, not literally infinite, if she has the ability to ignore his ability however, she doesn't actually have to bypass infinite distance, just the literal distance.

She has the means to do so, it's basic hax vs hax yap.
 
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For reference, if Gojo was LITERALLY an infinite distance away, she wouldn't be able to hit him (like no shit, she don't got arms for that), but that isn't what infinity actually does it would seem, he's still located in space point A or whatever, the gap is just rendered functionally infinite around him. If someone or something were to ignore that division, much like how sound and light does for Gojo himself so he can see and hear, they wouldn't need to cover that infinite gap, because he isn't actually infinite distance away, his ability just divides the finite space around him instead against harm. If this was ignored, it'd be normal distance as we visually see.
 
Chariot190 said:
He's still in character, he wants to defeat her, but he's still gonna be acting like how he would against a teenager he doesn't perceive as a threat.

He would do so, but he would do so acting like how he would against such a character.
Click to expand...
It depends. How Gojo acts is really weird. Most of time he doesn't even allow the opponent to get close. He can easily just destroy the arms and legs of a fodder and kill two guys in a instant without giving any chance for the enemy
Gege only made he show off his powers in the begin of the manga, probably to introduce his powers, but in later fights he does not do it

If we don't equalize mana to CE, it means that Gojo can't read Ubel, and thus wouldn't let her to get close (like how he did against Toji).
If we equalize, he will find how her power works
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
It depends. How Gojo acts is really weird. Most of time he doesn't even allow the opponent to get close. He can easily just destroy the arms and legs of a fodder and kill two guys in a instant without giving any chance for the enemy
Gege only made he show off his powers in the begin of the manga, probably to introduce his powers, but in later fights he does not do it
Click to expand...
Yeah but WOULD he against a young girl? Can and would are very different.
LIFE_OF_KING said:
If we don't equalize mana to CE, it means that Gojo can't read Ubel, and thus wouldn't let her to get close (like how he did against Toji).
If we equalize, he will find how her power works
Click to expand...
Would it matter, she has on sight paralysis. And her swings kinda huge as of late (Didn't she like, bisect a building recently?).
 
Arkenis said:
Okay that's understood. We've been talking about SR so far.


Disagree but it doesn't change my vote. She still has to swing her spear closer than Gojo hitting her with blues and stop her from moving.
Click to expand...
That's where sorganeil comes in. I don't know why we arr talking about it when its just stopping one from manipulating their internal energy but I'm not willing to argue if they can or can't be equalized
LIFE_OF_KING said:
If we don't equalize mana to CE, it means that Gojo can't read Ubel, and thus wouldn't let her to get close (like how he did against Toji).
Click to expand...
Doesn't even matter. Sox yes will only tell him the slashes cut what she believes she can cut, it won't tell him about her busted SR
 
Haven't read through any of these pages but this should be a stomp, no?

Ubel's thing is basically Dura Negation Telekinesis. Her thought of cutting the opponent spawns on them instantaneously. It doesn't have to travel to Gojo, it just happens to him via Subjective Reality.

Because it doesn't travel in the first place, it doesn't even interact with Infinity. Gojo just gets sliced in half because that's what her vision would be.

If that's her first move, Gojo doesn't really have anything to match an instantaneous win-condition.
 
Chariot190 said:
Yeah but WOULD he against a young girl? Can and would are very different.
Click to expand...
Yeah? It's his opponent after all. He never fought a girl before but he didn't care to threat a grammer when a kid, kill merciless a bunch of normal humans or massacre the higher ups that lack any kind of power.

He is pretty "traumatised" since his fight against Toji, who he couldn't read a single trace. Even if does not start for the kill, I don't think he would let Ubel get close

And I really still disagree with the idea of Ubel bypassing Gojo's Infinity
 
Phoenks said:
Her thought of cutting the opponent spawns on them instantaneously
Click to expand...
0041-012.png
0041-013.png
 
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