Twin Star Exorcists: Spiritual Power Nature

[Arkenis]

Sandbox

This will be for updating Spiritual Power in verse and its nature as well as making a verse page to find physiology for Kegare and abilities for Exorcists. Most of the stuff for Kegare and exorcists have already been accepted so mainly focus on the Spiritual Power section for this crt.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll check this out later.

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Ped2018]

I'll check this out later.

 

[Arkenis]

bump

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll check this out later.

I'm sick right now, which is why I haven't reviewed the thread yet. I'm feeling better though, so I will check this out later tonight.

 

[Deceived3596]

I've checked through the blog and everything seems fine. I'm however still sick and don't have the will/desire to read everything in great depth, so take my agreement with a grain of salt.

 

[Arkenis]

Bump

 

[deonment]

Sandbox

This will be for updating Spiritual Power in verse and its nature as well as making a verse page to find physiology for Kegare and abilities for Exorcists. Most of the stuff for Kegare and exorcists have already been accepted so mainly focus on the Spiritual Power section for this crt.

Going through this

genetic information

Biological information is not Info type 2, its not even info type 1

Chaos Manipulation

The justifications here don't mean chaos manip, someone reading into the I Ching and Taiji doesn't actually mean much regarding the nature of Spirit energy (and before you bring up how the verse uses Yin and Yang, those two concepts predate the I Ching and Taoism by a decent while), and the other mention of chaos is absolutely not about any sort of more metaphysical chaos, and more litera chaos that one would expect from something bad happening

Non-Physical Interaction (Type 2 - Abstract)

You don't need NPI to interact with type 2 abstracts, because they are embodiments rather than abstractions

Limited Attack Reflection (A great difference[28] between two spiritual powers can cause the weaker one to be damaged when trying to attack. We also see this with Arima's gauntlet[29] being damaged after punching Sakanashi)

This isn't attack reflection, this is just newton's third law

Extrasensory Perception (Blindspot Sensing - Able to sense their blindspot[32], presumably through sensing spiritual power. Arima is also able to evade[33] attacks from blindspot against Shiromi while the area was also covered in smoke. Inter-Dimensional - Can sense others in another dimension getting a "tingling[34]" feeling from them simply staring at them)

This is just enhanced senses, and them reacting to attacks they can't see doesn't have to be blindspot sensing and can just be gotten through having proper enhanced senses

Portal Creation, Dimensional Travel, BFR (Can open a portal[35] using a spell to go into Magano)

This wouldn't be BFR, and would only be BFR for a specific character if they use it to actually BFR people
Everything else is fine in my mind

 

[Arkenis]

Biological information is not Info type 2, its not even info type

That isn’t for info 2. Info 2 comes from spiritual power being the source of all creation in the verse.

The justifications here don't mean chaos manip, someone reading into the I Ching and Taiji doesn't actually mean much regarding the nature of Spirit energy (and before you bring up how the verse uses Yin and Yang, those two concepts predate the I Ching and Taoism by a decent while), and the other mention of chaos is absolutely not about any sort of more metaphysical chaos, and more litera chaos that one would expect from something bad happening

The chaos crt happening rn is going over this and reading it the description fits spiritual power, what Yuto says also just helps to support it.

You don't need NPI to interact with type 2 abstracts, because they are embodiments rather than abstractions

Yin Energy is abstract.

This isn't attack reflection, this is just newton's third law

Its reflecting the spiritual power back at them? We literally see Keiji’s spiritual power being redirected at him tearing through his body. This was already accepted months ago.

This is just enhanced senses, and them reacting to attacks they can't see doesn't have to be blindspot sensing and can just be gotten through having proper enhanced senses

Extrasensory Perception, also known as sensing, detection, or a sixth sense, is the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user.

This is literally what they do. They sense others in different dimensions looking at them. They sense people behind them, that’s a detection. This was also already accepted months ago. Its why I said this is really just about spiritual power itself not everything else.

This wouldn't be BFR, and would only be BFR for a specific character if they use it to actually BFR people
Everything else is fine in my mind

They can just push someone through the portal, that isn’t some wild tactic, especially when Magano is a hostile dimension that can kill many just from entering.

 

[deonment]

That isn’t for info 2. Info 2 comes from spiritual power being the source of all creation in the verse.

That sure as hell aint type 2 info manip then you absolutely need more than what you have to give this info type 2

The chaos crt happening rn is going over this and reading it the description fits spiritual power, what Yuto says also just helps to support it.

No, it doesn't, the chaos being referred to is the same kind of chaos a natural disaster would cause, not the type of metaphysical chaos the chaos manip page is looking for

Yin Energy is abstract.

Yeah in a type 2 manner, it is an embodiment, not the abstract itself

Its reflecting the spiritual power back at them? We literally see Keiji’s spiritual power being redirected at him tearing through his body. This was already accepted months ago.

That is literally just how Newton's third law works, the force being dispersed through the entire body rather than just the general area being a testament to the strength of the blow itself rather than being attack reflection. Like being damaged because you punched something hard or the reaction force from whatever you were doing is strong is a quintessential example of the third law.

Extrasensory Perception, also known as sensing, detection, or a sixth sense, is the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user.

This is literally what they do. They sense others in different dimensions looking at them. They sense people behind them, that’s a detection.

Yeah, but nothing there directly indicates that they are sensing through any form of sixth sense or what have you compared to just having really good enhanced senses, which is enough to actually cover literally everything you have for ESP because ESP directly requires being able to sense this stuff through a sixth sense, rather than having your five senses actually being supernatural

This was also already accepted months ago. Its why I said this is really just about spiritual power itself not everything else.

1)That's why I'm only commenting on stuff in the spiritual power section
2)That will not stop me from contesting it

They can just push someone through the portal, that isn’t some wild tactic, especially when Magano is a hostile dimension that can kill many just from entering.

Yeah but with this and other powers like it, the character(s) in question actually have to have used it as such before we catalog it as BFR, otherwise every single profile with like, tier 6 AP or good enough LS would all have BFR because they can just send someone up to low orbit or outright space. It isn't a question of capability, it is a question of willingness and/or "knowledge".

 

[Arkenis]

That sure as hell aint type 2 info manip then you absolutely need more than what you have to give this info type 2

Info 2 is being the building block of reality, how is spiritual power being the source of creation not that.

No, it doesn't, the chaos being referred to is the same kind of chaos a natural disaster would cause, not the type of metaphysical chaos the chaos manip page is looking for

This is what the page says, this explicitly fits what Spiritual Power is and what Yuto was talking about.

Chaos is also opposed to order, which may be related to nonexistence (the state of the universe before order or creation), but represents a pure destructive, chaotic, or primordial form of everything or it can also be a hodgepodge of everything.

That is literally just how Newton's third law works, the force being dispersed through the entire body rather than just the general area being a testament to the strength of the blow itself rather than being attack reflection. Like being damaged because you punched something hard or the reaction force from whatever you were doing is strong is a quintessential example of the third law.

This is what Attack Reflection page says

Attack Reflection is the explicit ability to turn one's opponent's attacks against them. This is a rather powerful ability, being able to perform offense and defense simultaneously by effectively turning one's efforts against them. Some common limitations include only working on attacks of a certain type or power level, a lengthy preparation time, or a specific requirement for use.

If this were just newtons third law, then they would not describe this as something specific to Spiritual Power, this is a trait of it. Specifically the part “being able to perform offense and defense simultaneously by effectively turning one's efforts against them” its exactly whats happening here. And newtons third law is about both objects applying an equal force to each other, this is one’s spiritual power being redirected to them.

Yeah, but nothing there directly indicates that they are sensing through any form of sixth sense or what have you compared to just having really good enhanced senses, which is enough to actually cover literally everything you have for ESP because ESP directly requires being able to sense this stuff through a sixth sense, rather than having your five senses actually being supernatural

What five senses let you sense someone in another dimension? What five senses let you sense someone behind you who didn’t make sound as we saw Kamui do.

Yeah but with this and other powers like it, the character(s) in question actually have to have used it as such before we catalog it as BFR, otherwise every single profile with like, tier 6 AP or good enough LS would all have BFR because they can just send someone up to low orbit or outright space. It isn't a question of capability, it is a question of willingness and/or "knowledge".

Where is this “have to have used it” coming from? As you pointed out their “knowledge” is in question, majority of the characters are geniuses, why wouldn’t they have knowledge about one of the most used spells to fight their main enemies? And there are instances of it happening

 

[deonment]

Info 2 is being the building block of reality, how is spiritual power being the source of creation not that.

Because info type 2 is looking for more than something just being the building blocks of reality

This is what the page says, this explicitly fits what Spiritual Power is and what Yuto was talking about.

No it don't, even in taoism taiji isn't chaos, and the other statement of chaos once more isn't what chaos manip is looking for

If this were just newtons third law, then they would not describe this as something specific to Spiritual Power, this is a trait of it. Specifically the part “being able to perform offense and defense simultaneously by effectively turning one's efforts against them” its exactly whats happening here. And newtons third law is about both objects applying an equal force to each other, this is one’s spiritual power being redirected to them.

No it isn't what?
If you punch something solid and it doesn't compress or collapse or what have you, the force you will receive in turn is going to be massive because tldr; the force won't have anywhere "to go", that's just how it works (there's a bunch of other stuff like how the deacceleration is actually whats screwing you over, but this is just the tldr

What five senses let you sense someone in another dimension? What five senses let you sense someone behind you who didn’t make sound as we saw Kamui do.

For the latter, tactile senses due to a change in air pressure or feeling the air moving behind you
For the former I'll just quote this

Extra Senses: Some characters have completely new senses not possessed by humans, an example of this in real life is the ability of some animal species to sense magnetic fields. Other extra senses can include the ability to sense things in different dimensions, distortions in time and space, the thoughts of other beings, the future, the past, quantum activity, magical energies, forms of life energy like ki, computer data, etc.

Where is this “have to have used it” coming from? As you pointed out their “knowledge” is in question, majority of the characters are geniuses, why wouldn’t they have knowledge about one of the most used spells to fight their main enemies?

To get BFR for a portal being used, a character actually has to show them using it for BFR, it's stupid but it is how it is

And there are instances of it happening

Good, then the characters who have used it as such are gonna get it, but see the above

 

[Arkenis]

Because info type 2 is looking for more than something just being the building blocks of reality

The page literally says that

These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality.

Spiritual Power is the source of all creation what more is needed? It predates souls, it predates life, it predates all the matter of the universe, it is used to sustain the universe via Yin and Yang. It interacts with and creates every aspect of the verse. It is the mechanism behind the magical abilities in the verse as the pages says can be an example. This is has by the page as it gets.

For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities,

No it don't, even in taoism taiji isn't chaos, and the other statement of chaos once more isn't what chaos manip is looking for

Oh okay then what is Taikyoku? I read a translation where it referred to I Ching as Ekikyo and Taikyoku as Taiji, if that’s wrong then so be it. But Taikyoku is clearly a chaotic state the universe was in in the beginning as Yuto says and in the beginning Spiritual Power was that as it says also. Spiritual Power is very clearly a chaotic energy in the verse. And the Chaos page brings up this primordial state of the universe so idk what is being misunderstood here by me or you.

No it isn't what?
If you punch something solid and it doesn't compress or collapse or what have you, the force you will receive in turn is going to be massive because tldr; the force won't have anywhere "to go", that's just how it works (there's a bunch of other stuff like how the deacceleration is actually whats screwing you over, but this is just the tldr

I honestly don’t know if you’re joking anymore. You’re essentially arguing this energy’s specific property shouldn’t be added because it’s like the law even though it’s described as something special to spiritual power. You’d have a point if this was two people fighting without the supernatural energy but its not.

For the latter, tactile senses due to a change in air pressure or feeling the air moving behind you
For the former I'll just quote this

This doesn’t help. This just shows Es and esp are interchangeable. But alright I’ll change it to Es.

To get BFR for a portal being used, a character actually has to show them using it for BFR, it's stupid but it is how it is

Where is this said? When was this a rule? Why isn’t it on bfr page?

 

[deonment]

Spiritual Power is the source of all creation what more is needed? It predates souls, it predates life, it predates all the matter of the universe, it is used to sustain the universe via Yin and Yang. It interacts with and creates every aspect of the verse. It is the mechanism behind the magical abilities in the verse as the pages says can be an example. This is has by the page as it gets.

Info type 2 is specifically looking for information or shit like information, this is just an energy system, which is honestly as fundamental as info type 2 or the other usual suspects would be, but it isn't actually info type 2

Oh okay then what is Taikyoku? I read a translation where it referred to I Ching as Ekikyo and Taikyoku as Taiji, if that’s wrong then so be it. But Taikyoku is clearly a chaotic state the universe was in in the beginning as Yuto says and in the beginning Spiritual Power was that as it says also. Spiritual Power is very clearly a chaotic energy in the verse. And the Chaos page brings up this primordial state of the universe so idk what is being misunderstood here by me or you.

Tldr; Wuji is the primal chaos before everything, Taiji is the state that proceeds separation and distinction (yin and yang), the former is something that would qualify for chaos manip, the latter just, is, it isn't chaos, its existence its most exemplary form

I honestly don’t know if you’re joking anymore. You’re essentially arguing this energy’s specific property shouldn’t be added because it’s like the law even though it’s described as something special to spiritual power. You’d have a point if this was two people fighting without the supernatural energy but its not.

You mean the same supernatural energy that is a UES and as such the person with more of it would have higher stats in general?

Where is this said? When was this a rule? Why isn’t it on bfr page?

I don't remember exactly where I saw it, but I know I did, though I can easily give you a few examples of such

Dimensional Travel/Portal Creation (Members of the three major races within[3] Bleach can create portals that[13] allow them to travel between dimensions[14])

From the Bleach Soul Physiology page

Reality Warping: Another primary ability of witches, its been shown in various ways, such as warping a keep into their personal barrier, H.N. Elly warping a human Madoka and the reality outside her own personal space, or a combination of the two.

PMMM witch physiology page

Pocket Reality Manipulation (Which she can use as BFR, Age Manipulation and Soul Manipulation [Often uses her barriers to trap and encase witches; is revealed to have turned Kyubey into a baby and moved Ui Tamaki's soul into)

Alina Grey page as a character from PMMM who uses witch barriers for BFR
What I'm trying to show is that a character has to actually show them using the thing for BFR to get BFR, and there are other characters who use AP or TK (Off the top of my head Makima and Tatsumaki) for BFR purposes, yet despite this, not everyone with a high enough AP or LS gets it, its stupid, but it is what it is

 

[Arkenis]

Info type 2 is specifically looking for information or shit like information, this is just an energy system, which is honestly as fundamental as info type 2 or the other usual suspects would be, but it isn't actually info type 2

This is information, its the source of all things in the verse lmao. It can't get more info 2 than that. Hell what I'm proposing is what GOH info 2 got accepted from as well.

Tldr; Wuji is the primal chaos before everything, Taiji is the state that proceeds separation and distinction (yin and yang), the former is something that would qualify for chaos manip, the latter just, is, it isn't chaos, its existence its most exemplary form

Again I'm going off what the newly Chaos page would be and what I've shown explicitly follows it. Taikyoku is a chaotic state the universe was in, Yuto says this, that chaotic state is spiritual power as that was the universe in the beginning. Spiritual Power is chaotic in nature.

Chaos is also opposed to order, which may be related to nonexistence (the state of the universe before order or creation), but represents a pure destructive, chaotic, or primordial form of everything or it can also be a hodgepodge of everything.

You mean the same supernatural energy that is a UES and as such the person with more of it would have higher stats in general?

Sure?

I don't remember exactly where I saw it, but I know I did, though I can easily give you a few examples of such
From the Bleach Soul Physiology page
PMMM witch physiology page
Alina Grey page as a character from PMMM who uses witch barriers for BFR
What I'm trying to show is that a character has to actually show them using the thing for BFR to get BFR, and there are other characters who use AP or TK (Off the top of my head Makima and Tatsumaki) for BFR purposes, yet despite this, not everyone with a high enough AP or LS gets it, its stupid, but it is what it is

Okay I won't continue this, just seems an issue with the bfr page than not. I'll remove it for exorcists but Kegare do indeed drag people into Magano and those people can't get out. You can see that in the Kegare section

 

[deonment]

This is information, its the source of all things in the verse lmao. It can't get more info 2 than that.

That doesn't make it info, its a fundamental energy that makes up and composes all shit, its equally as fundamental as type 2 info, but it doesn't make it info, esp with how it "only" composes and makes up stuff, rather than defining its qualities or what have you

Again I'm going off what the newly Chaos page would be and what I've shown explicitly follows it. Taikyoku is a chaotic state the universe was in, Yuto says this, that chaotic state is spiritual power as that was the universe in the beginning. Spiritual Power is chaotic in nature.

Honestly agree to disagree on this point

Sure?

And so the point about "fighting with supernatural energies" doesn't mean much considering how it also amplifies the physicals of the characters in question, and so the physical laws that would come into play from punching something much more durable than you are that doesn't bend as a result of your own force

 

[Arkenis]

That doesn't make it info, its a fundamental energy that makes up and composes all shit, its equally as fundamental as type 2 info, but it doesn't make it info, esp with how it "only" composes and makes up stuff, rather than defining its qualities or what have you

Please show me some crt or where in the info page something "equally as fundamental as type 2 info" is not info 2.

 

[Arkenis]

And so the point about "fighting with supernatural energies" doesn't mean much considering how it also amplifies the physicals of the characters in question, and so the physical laws that would come into play from punching something much more durable than you are that doesn't bend as a result of your own force

I think while this makes sense conventionally, its clear there's a difference in how it happens. When I punch a wall my force isn't shot back at me coursing throughout my body and destroying me. The characters can take their own attacks as they fight equally strong characters. Though since it follows the law to some extent I'll remove it as AR and put it into the power system section instead.

 

[deonment]

I think while this makes sense conventionally, its clear there's a difference in how it happens. When I punch a wall my force isn't shot back at me coursing throughout my body and destroying me. The characters can take their own attacks as they fight equally strong characters. Though since it follows the law to some extent I'll remove it as AR and put it into the power system section instead.

Fair enough

Please show me some crt or where in the info page something "equally as fundamental as type 2 info" is not info 2.

I'm not saying it like that, I'm saying it is as fundamental as info type 2 in the same way as CM1 and Laws are equally as fundamental
And yes there can be things in a verse that are not necessarily the usual fundamental aspects (CM1, Laws, Info, Plot) that are equally or more fundamental anyway
For an already existent example on site, the True Soul for Desolate Era characters exists beyond the usual Mind Body Soul trinity and is more fundamental than them, even after a character has fused their daos into their soul and body
In addition to this I know multiple verses that do have energy as more fundamental than basically everything else in verse
So like, its as much of a fundamental/metaphysical aspect of reality and people as info, but it ain't info

 

[Arkenis]

I'm not saying it like that, I'm saying it is as fundamental as info type 2 in the same way as CM1 and Laws are equally as fundamental
And yes there can be things in a verse that are not necessarily the usual fundamental aspects (CM1, Laws, Info, Plot) that are equally or more fundamental anyway
For an already existent example on site, the True Soul for Desolate Era characters exists beyond the usual Mind Body Soul trinity and is more fundamental than them, even after a character has fused their daos into their soul and body
In addition to this I know multiple verses that do have energy as more fundamental than basically everything else in verse
So like, its as much of a fundamental/metaphysical aspect of reality and people as info, but it ain't info

I'm asking where this is said as a rule. Why would something that fits the fundamental-ness of info 2 not qualify for info 2? And then what would it be classified as? What are these other verses that don't qualify their fundamental verse's aspect as info 2 and or cm2 or 1?

 

[deonment]

I'm asking where this is said as a rule. Why would something that fits the fundamental-ness of info 2 not qualify for info 2? And then what would it be classified as? What are these other verses that don't qualify their fundamental verse's aspect as info 2 and or cm2 or 1?

In this case it would just be classified as energy manip
Anyways for examples of stuff that don't fall under the usual list of fundamental aspects
Rise of Humanity - Totem Patterns
Desolate Era - True Souls
Fallen London - The Correspondence and Discordance (Literal language that is what reality describes and dictates what reality and laws are btw)
Lightning Is The Only Way/Sword God In A World Of Magic - Energy is one of the two highest powers in verse, the other being death, both of them existing above laws and concepts
Birth of the Demonic Sword - Primary Energy, is a more primal and fundamental thing than Breath, Meanings, and Raw Laws, which is energy that constructs everything, the thing that gives something its properties, and what it says on the tin respectively

 

[Arkenis]

In this case it would just be classified as energy manip

That just isn't true from what we're told. It embodies human desires, it is the source of life and of all things, it creates emotions, it holds memories/minds, and it can create all the phenomena in the universe. Then there's the Kegare King blatantly stating she can unify all things with her spell meaning all things are originally one as we know spiritual power was once that amalgamation of things. The God of High school has basically this exact stuff for its core elements and its accepted as info 2 so I don't see how its just energy manip.

Rise of Humanity - Totem Patterns
Desolate Era - True Souls
Fallen London - The Correspondence and Discordance (Literal language that is what reality describes and dictates what reality and laws are btw)
Lightning Is The Only Way/Sword God In A World Of Magic - Energy is one of the two highest powers in verse, the other being death, both of them existing above laws and concepts
Birth of the Demonic Sword - Primary Energy, is a more primal and fundamental thing than Breath, Meanings, and Raw Laws, which is energy that constructs everything, the thing that gives something its properties, and what it says on the tin respectively

What are these other verses that don't qualify their fundamental verse's aspect as info 2 and or cm2 or 1?

I said this. What you described for three of these things all fit into info 2 or cm2. If those verses don't have that listed then something is clearly wrong. I'm asking for a verse where what I propose isn't treated as info 2, cm2 or 1.

 

[deonment]

I said this. What you described for three of these things all fit into info 2 or cm2. If those verses don't have that listed then something is clearly wrong. I'm asking for a verse where what I propose isn't treated as info 2, cm2 or 1.

What, no, I can only maybe see that for Totem patterns, True Souls are literally beyond concepts in terms of fundamentality in verse, and as described in verse don't have anything close to a concept/particular relationship to a person, the Correspondence and Discordance are literally languages, full stop, super ****** up languages that make the world reflect them rather than reflecting the world, yes, but, it still is a language as its core, and is very much not conceptual, Energy and Death govern and makes up concepts and laws, but in of themselves are not them, same with Primary Energy, which is explicitly just energy

That just isn't true from what we're told. It embodies human desires, it is the source of life and of all things, it creates emotions, it holds memories/minds, and it can create all the phenomena in the universe. Then there's the Kegare King blatantly stating she can unify all things with her spell meaning all things are originally one as we know spiritual power was once that amalgamation of things. The God of High school has basically this exact stuff for its core elements and its accepted as info 2 so I don't see how its just energy manip.

Yeah, but none of this is info manip, this is extremely potent energy manip, but not info manip

But honestly at this point I would rather just wait on staff and what they say rather than keep at this debate for who knows how long

 

[Antvasima]

@JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @DemonGodMitchAubin @AbaddonTheDisappointment @ActuallySpaceMan42

Are any of you willing to help out here please?

 

[Delta333]

Hard disagree with infor type 2 too.