Arkenis
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I'll check this out later.
I'm sick right now, which is why I haven't reviewed the thread yet. I'm feeling better though, so I will check this out later tonight.I'll check this out later.
Going through thisSandbox
This will be for updating Spiritual Power in verse and its nature as well as making a verse page to find physiology for Kegare and abilities for Exorcists. Most of the stuff for Kegare and exorcists have already been accepted so mainly focus on the Spiritual Power section for this crt.
Biological information is not Info type 2, its not even info type 1
The justifications here don't mean chaos manip, someone reading into the I Ching and Taiji doesn't actually mean much regarding the nature of Spirit energy (and before you bring up how the verse uses Yin and Yang, those two concepts predate the I Ching and Taoism by a decent while), and the other mention of chaos is absolutely not about any sort of more metaphysical chaos, and more litera chaos that one would expect from something bad happening
You don't need NPI to interact with type 2 abstracts, because they are embodiments rather than abstractionsNon-Physical Interaction (Type 2 - Abstract)
This isn't attack reflection, this is just newton's third lawLimited Attack Reflection (A great difference[28] between two spiritual powers can cause the weaker one to be damaged when trying to attack. We also see this with Arima's gauntlet[29] being damaged after punching Sakanashi)
This is just enhanced senses, and them reacting to attacks they can't see doesn't have to be blindspot sensing and can just be gotten through having proper enhanced sensesExtrasensory Perception (Blindspot Sensing - Able to sense their blindspot[32], presumably through sensing spiritual power. Arima is also able to evade[33] attacks from blindspot against Shiromi while the area was also covered in smoke. Inter-Dimensional - Can sense others in another dimension getting a "tingling[34]" feeling from them simply staring at them)
This wouldn't be BFR, and would only be BFR for a specific character if they use it to actually BFR people
That isn’t for info 2. Info 2 comes from spiritual power being the source of all creation in the verse.Biological information is not Info type 2, its not even info type
The chaos crt happening rn is going over this and reading it the description fits spiritual power, what Yuto says also just helps to support it.The justifications here don't mean chaos manip, someone reading into the I Ching and Taiji doesn't actually mean much regarding the nature of Spirit energy (and before you bring up how the verse uses Yin and Yang, those two concepts predate the I Ching and Taoism by a decent while), and the other mention of chaos is absolutely not about any sort of more metaphysical chaos, and more litera chaos that one would expect from something bad happening
Yin Energy is abstract.You don't need NPI to interact with type 2 abstracts, because they are embodiments rather than abstractions
Its reflecting the spiritual power back at them? We literally see Keiji’s spiritual power being redirected at him tearing through his body. This was already accepted months ago.This isn't attack reflection, this is just newton's third law
Extrasensory Perception, also known as sensing, detection, or a sixth sense, is the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user.This is just enhanced senses, and them reacting to attacks they can't see doesn't have to be blindspot sensing and can just be gotten through having proper enhanced senses
They can just push someone through the portal, that isn’t some wild tactic, especially when Magano is a hostile dimension that can kill many just from entering.This wouldn't be BFR, and would only be BFR for a specific character if they use it to actually BFR people
Everything else is fine in my mind
That sure as hell aint type 2 info manip then you absolutely need more than what you have to give this info type 2That isn’t for info 2. Info 2 comes from spiritual power being the source of all creation in the verse.
No, it doesn't, the chaos being referred to is the same kind of chaos a natural disaster would cause, not the type of metaphysical chaos the chaos manip page is looking forThe chaos crt happening rn is going over this and reading it the description fits spiritual power, what Yuto says also just helps to support it.
Yeah in a type 2 manner, it is an embodiment, not the abstract itselfYin Energy is abstract.
That is literally just how Newton's third law works, the force being dispersed through the entire body rather than just the general area being a testament to the strength of the blow itself rather than being attack reflection. Like being damaged because you punched something hard or the reaction force from whatever you were doing is strong is a quintessential example of the third law.Its reflecting the spiritual power back at them? We literally see Keiji’s spiritual power being redirected at him tearing through his body. This was already accepted months ago.
Yeah, but nothing there directly indicates that they are sensing through any form of sixth sense or what have you compared to just having really good enhanced senses, which is enough to actually cover literally everything you have for ESP because ESP directly requires being able to sense this stuff through a sixth sense, rather than having your five senses actually being supernaturalExtrasensory Perception, also known as sensing, detection, or a sixth sense, is the ability to detect energy signatures, matter signatures, or the like near the user.
This is literally what they do. They sense others in different dimensions looking at them. They sense people behind them, that’s a detection.
1)That's why I'm only commenting on stuff in the spiritual power sectionThis was also already accepted months ago. Its why I said this is really just about spiritual power itself not everything else.
Yeah but with this and other powers like it, the character(s) in question actually have to have used it as such before we catalog it as BFR, otherwise every single profile with like, tier 6 AP or good enough LS would all have BFR because they can just send someone up to low orbit or outright space. It isn't a question of capability, it is a question of willingness and/or "knowledge".They can just push someone through the portal, that isn’t some wild tactic, especially when Magano is a hostile dimension that can kill many just from entering.
Info 2 is being the building block of reality, how is spiritual power being the source of creation not that.That sure as hell aint type 2 info manip then you absolutely need more than what you have to give this info type 2
This is what the page says, this explicitly fits what Spiritual Power is and what Yuto was talking about.No, it doesn't, the chaos being referred to is the same kind of chaos a natural disaster would cause, not the type of metaphysical chaos the chaos manip page is looking for
Chaos is also opposed to order, which may be related to nonexistence (the state of the universe before order or creation), but represents a pure destructive, chaotic, or primordial form of everything or it can also be a hodgepodge of everything.
This is what Attack Reflection page saysThat is literally just how Newton's third law works, the force being dispersed through the entire body rather than just the general area being a testament to the strength of the blow itself rather than being attack reflection. Like being damaged because you punched something hard or the reaction force from whatever you were doing is strong is a quintessential example of the third law.
If this were just newtons third law, then they would not describe this as something specific to Spiritual Power, this is a trait of it. Specifically the part “being able to perform offense and defense simultaneously by effectively turning one's efforts against them” its exactly whats happening here. And newtons third law is about both objects applying an equal force to each other, this is one’s spiritual power being redirected to them.Attack Reflection is the explicit ability to turn one's opponent's attacks against them. This is a rather powerful ability, being able to perform offense and defense simultaneously by effectively turning one's efforts against them. Some common limitations include only working on attacks of a certain type or power level, a lengthy preparation time, or a specific requirement for use.
What five senses let you sense someone in another dimension? What five senses let you sense someone behind you who didn’t make sound as we saw Kamui do.Yeah, but nothing there directly indicates that they are sensing through any form of sixth sense or what have you compared to just having really good enhanced senses, which is enough to actually cover literally everything you have for ESP because ESP directly requires being able to sense this stuff through a sixth sense, rather than having your five senses actually being supernatural
Where is this “have to have used it” coming from? As you pointed out their “knowledge” is in question, majority of the characters are geniuses, why wouldn’t they have knowledge about one of the most used spells to fight their main enemies? And there are instances of it happeningYeah but with this and other powers like it, the character(s) in question actually have to have used it as such before we catalog it as BFR, otherwise every single profile with like, tier 6 AP or good enough LS would all have BFR because they can just send someone up to low orbit or outright space. It isn't a question of capability, it is a question of willingness and/or "knowledge".
Because info type 2 is looking for more than something just being the building blocks of realityInfo 2 is being the building block of reality, how is spiritual power being the source of creation not that.
No it don't, even in taoism taiji isn't chaos, and the other statement of chaos once more isn't what chaos manip is looking forThis is what the page says, this explicitly fits what Spiritual Power is and what Yuto was talking about.
No it isn't what?If this were just newtons third law, then they would not describe this as something specific to Spiritual Power, this is a trait of it. Specifically the part “being able to perform offense and defense simultaneously by effectively turning one's efforts against them” its exactly whats happening here. And newtons third law is about both objects applying an equal force to each other, this is one’s spiritual power being redirected to them.
For the latter, tactile senses due to a change in air pressure or feeling the air moving behind youWhat five senses let you sense someone in another dimension? What five senses let you sense someone behind you who didn’t make sound as we saw Kamui do.
Extra Senses: Some characters have completely new senses not possessed by humans, an example of this in real life is the ability of some animal species to sense magnetic fields. Other extra senses can include the ability to sense things in different dimensions, distortions in time and space, the thoughts of other beings, the future, the past, quantum activity, magical energies, forms of life energy like ki, computer data, etc.
To get BFR for a portal being used, a character actually has to show them using it for BFR, it's stupid but it is how it isWhere is this “have to have used it” coming from? As you pointed out their “knowledge” is in question, majority of the characters are geniuses, why wouldn’t they have knowledge about one of the most used spells to fight their main enemies?
Good, then the characters who have used it as such are gonna get it, but see the aboveAnd there are instances of it happening
The page literally says thatBecause info type 2 is looking for more than something just being the building blocks of reality
Spiritual Power is the source of all creation what more is needed? It predates souls, it predates life, it predates all the matter of the universe, it is used to sustain the universe via Yin and Yang. It interacts with and creates every aspect of the verse. It is the mechanism behind the magical abilities in the verse as the pages says can be an example. This is has by the page as it gets.These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality.
For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities,
Oh okay then what is Taikyoku? I read a translation where it referred to I Ching as Ekikyo and Taikyoku as Taiji, if that’s wrong then so be it. But Taikyoku is clearly a chaotic state the universe was in in the beginning as Yuto says and in the beginning Spiritual Power was that as it says also. Spiritual Power is very clearly a chaotic energy in the verse. And the Chaos page brings up this primordial state of the universe so idk what is being misunderstood here by me or you.No it don't, even in taoism taiji isn't chaos, and the other statement of chaos once more isn't what chaos manip is looking for
I honestly don’t know if you’re joking anymore. You’re essentially arguing this energy’s specific property shouldn’t be added because it’s like the law even though it’s described as something special to spiritual power. You’d have a point if this was two people fighting without the supernatural energy but its not.No it isn't what?
If you punch something solid and it doesn't compress or collapse or what have you, the force you will receive in turn is going to be massive because tldr; the force won't have anywhere "to go", that's just how it works (there's a bunch of other stuff like how the deacceleration is actually whats screwing you over, but this is just the tldr
This doesn’t help. This just shows Es and esp are interchangeable. But alright I’ll change it to Es.For the latter, tactile senses due to a change in air pressure or feeling the air moving behind you
For the former I'll just quote this
Where is this said? When was this a rule? Why isn’t it on bfr page?To get BFR for a portal being used, a character actually has to show them using it for BFR, it's stupid but it is how it is
Info type 2 is specifically looking for information or shit like information, this is just an energy system, which is honestly as fundamental as info type 2 or the other usual suspects would be, but it isn't actually info type 2Spiritual Power is the source of all creation what more is needed? It predates souls, it predates life, it predates all the matter of the universe, it is used to sustain the universe via Yin and Yang. It interacts with and creates every aspect of the verse. It is the mechanism behind the magical abilities in the verse as the pages says can be an example. This is has by the page as it gets.
Tldr; Wuji is the primal chaos before everything, Taiji is the state that proceeds separation and distinction (yin and yang), the former is something that would qualify for chaos manip, the latter just, is, it isn't chaos, its existence its most exemplary formOh okay then what is Taikyoku? I read a translation where it referred to I Ching as Ekikyo and Taikyoku as Taiji, if that’s wrong then so be it. But Taikyoku is clearly a chaotic state the universe was in in the beginning as Yuto says and in the beginning Spiritual Power was that as it says also. Spiritual Power is very clearly a chaotic energy in the verse. And the Chaos page brings up this primordial state of the universe so idk what is being misunderstood here by me or you.
You mean the same supernatural energy that is a UES and as such the person with more of it would have higher stats in general?I honestly don’t know if you’re joking anymore. You’re essentially arguing this energy’s specific property shouldn’t be added because it’s like the law even though it’s described as something special to spiritual power. You’d have a point if this was two people fighting without the supernatural energy but its not.
I don't remember exactly where I saw it, but I know I did, though I can easily give you a few examples of suchWhere is this said? When was this a rule? Why isn’t it on bfr page?
From the Bleach Soul Physiology page
PMMM witch physiology pageReality Warping: Another primary ability of witches, its been shown in various ways, such as warping a keep into their personal barrier, H.N. Elly warping a human Madoka and the reality outside her own personal space, or a combination of the two.
Alina Grey page as a character from PMMM who uses witch barriers for BFRPocket Reality Manipulation (Which she can use as BFR, Age Manipulation and Soul Manipulation [Often uses her barriers to trap and encase witches; is revealed to have turned Kyubey into a baby and moved Ui Tamaki's soul into)
This is information, its the source of all things in the verse lmao. It can't get more info 2 than that. Hell what I'm proposing is what GOH info 2 got accepted from as well.Info type 2 is specifically looking for information or shit like information, this is just an energy system, which is honestly as fundamental as info type 2 or the other usual suspects would be, but it isn't actually info type 2
Again I'm going off what the newly Chaos page would be and what I've shown explicitly follows it. Taikyoku is a chaotic state the universe was in, Yuto says this, that chaotic state is spiritual power as that was the universe in the beginning. Spiritual Power is chaotic in nature.Tldr; Wuji is the primal chaos before everything, Taiji is the state that proceeds separation and distinction (yin and yang), the former is something that would qualify for chaos manip, the latter just, is, it isn't chaos, its existence its most exemplary form
Chaos is also opposed to order, which may be related to nonexistence (the state of the universe before order or creation), but represents a pure destructive, chaotic, or primordial form of everything or it can also be a hodgepodge of everything.
Sure?You mean the same supernatural energy that is a UES and as such the person with more of it would have higher stats in general?
Okay I won't continue this, just seems an issue with the bfr page than not. I'll remove it for exorcists but Kegare do indeed drag people into Magano and those people can't get out. You can see that in the Kegare sectionI don't remember exactly where I saw it, but I know I did, though I can easily give you a few examples of such
From the Bleach Soul Physiology page
PMMM witch physiology page
Alina Grey page as a character from PMMM who uses witch barriers for BFR
What I'm trying to show is that a character has to actually show them using the thing for BFR to get BFR, and there are other characters who use AP or TK (Off the top of my head Makima and Tatsumaki) for BFR purposes, yet despite this, not everyone with a high enough AP or LS gets it, its stupid, but it is what it is
That doesn't make it info, its a fundamental energy that makes up and composes all shit, its equally as fundamental as type 2 info, but it doesn't make it info, esp with how it "only" composes and makes up stuff, rather than defining its qualities or what have youThis is information, its the source of all things in the verse lmao. It can't get more info 2 than that.
Honestly agree to disagree on this pointAgain I'm going off what the newly Chaos page would be and what I've shown explicitly follows it. Taikyoku is a chaotic state the universe was in, Yuto says this, that chaotic state is spiritual power as that was the universe in the beginning. Spiritual Power is chaotic in nature.
And so the point about "fighting with supernatural energies" doesn't mean much considering how it also amplifies the physicals of the characters in question, and so the physical laws that would come into play from punching something much more durable than you are that doesn't bend as a result of your own forceSure?
Please show me some crt or where in the info page something "equally as fundamental as type 2 info" is not info 2.That doesn't make it info, its a fundamental energy that makes up and composes all shit, its equally as fundamental as type 2 info, but it doesn't make it info, esp with how it "only" composes and makes up stuff, rather than defining its qualities or what have you
I think while this makes sense conventionally, its clear there's a difference in how it happens. When I punch a wall my force isn't shot back at me coursing throughout my body and destroying me. The characters can take their own attacks as they fight equally strong characters. Though since it follows the law to some extent I'll remove it as AR and put it into the power system section instead.And so the point about "fighting with supernatural energies" doesn't mean much considering how it also amplifies the physicals of the characters in question, and so the physical laws that would come into play from punching something much more durable than you are that doesn't bend as a result of your own force
Fair enoughI think while this makes sense conventionally, its clear there's a difference in how it happens. When I punch a wall my force isn't shot back at me coursing throughout my body and destroying me. The characters can take their own attacks as they fight equally strong characters. Though since it follows the law to some extent I'll remove it as AR and put it into the power system section instead.
I'm not saying it like that, I'm saying it is as fundamental as info type 2 in the same way as CM1 and Laws are equally as fundamentalPlease show me some crt or where in the info page something "equally as fundamental as type 2 info" is not info 2.
I'm asking where this is said as a rule. Why would something that fits the fundamental-ness of info 2 not qualify for info 2? And then what would it be classified as? What are these other verses that don't qualify their fundamental verse's aspect as info 2 and or cm2 or 1?I'm not saying it like that, I'm saying it is as fundamental as info type 2 in the same way as CM1 and Laws are equally as fundamental
And yes there can be things in a verse that are not necessarily the usual fundamental aspects (CM1, Laws, Info, Plot) that are equally or more fundamental anyway
For an already existent example on site, the True Soul for Desolate Era characters exists beyond the usual Mind Body Soul trinity and is more fundamental than them, even after a character has fused their daos into their soul and body
In addition to this I know multiple verses that do have energy as more fundamental than basically everything else in verse
So like, its as much of a fundamental/metaphysical aspect of reality and people as info, but it ain't info
In this case it would just be classified as energy manipI'm asking where this is said as a rule. Why would something that fits the fundamental-ness of info 2 not qualify for info 2? And then what would it be classified as? What are these other verses that don't qualify their fundamental verse's aspect as info 2 and or cm2 or 1?
That just isn't true from what we're told. It embodies human desires, it is the source of life and of all things, it creates emotions, it holds memories/minds, and it can create all the phenomena in the universe. Then there's the Kegare King blatantly stating she can unify all things with her spell meaning all things are originally one as we know spiritual power was once that amalgamation of things. The God of High school has basically this exact stuff for its core elements and its accepted as info 2 so I don't see how its just energy manip.In this case it would just be classified as energy manip
Rise of Humanity - Totem Patterns
Desolate Era - True Souls
Fallen London - The Correspondence and Discordance (Literal language that is what reality describes and dictates what reality and laws are btw)
Lightning Is The Only Way/Sword God In A World Of Magic - Energy is one of the two highest powers in verse, the other being death, both of them existing above laws and concepts
Birth of the Demonic Sword - Primary Energy, is a more primal and fundamental thing than Breath, Meanings, and Raw Laws, which is energy that constructs everything, the thing that gives something its properties, and what it says on the tin respectively
I said this. What you described for three of these things all fit into info 2 or cm2. If those verses don't have that listed then something is clearly wrong. I'm asking for a verse where what I propose isn't treated as info 2, cm2 or 1.What are these other verses that don't qualify their fundamental verse's aspect as info 2 and or cm2 or 1?
What, no, I can only maybe see that for Totem patterns, True Souls are literally beyond concepts in terms of fundamentality in verse, and as described in verse don't have anything close to a concept/particular relationship to a person, the Correspondence and Discordance are literally languages, full stop, super ****** up languages that make the world reflect them rather than reflecting the world, yes, but, it still is a language as its core, and is very much not conceptual, Energy and Death govern and makes up concepts and laws, but in of themselves are not them, same with Primary Energy, which is explicitly just energyI said this. What you described for three of these things all fit into info 2 or cm2. If those verses don't have that listed then something is clearly wrong. I'm asking for a verse where what I propose isn't treated as info 2, cm2 or 1.
Yeah, but none of this is info manip, this is extremely potent energy manip, but not info manipThat just isn't true from what we're told. It embodies human desires, it is the source of life and of all things, it creates emotions, it holds memories/minds, and it can create all the phenomena in the universe. Then there's the Kegare King blatantly stating she can unify all things with her spell meaning all things are originally one as we know spiritual power was once that amalgamation of things. The God of High school has basically this exact stuff for its core elements and its accepted as info 2 so I don't see how its just energy manip.
What is this referring to? Nothing listed in the power section would have any of this as ratings.Type 2 - Abstract - Spiritual - Informational -
Presumably you're linking Information to the Type 2 listed above. Going over the powerInformation Manipulation (Type 2 Can protect themselves against spiritual attacks through control of their spiritual power)
From what I can see nothing given really gives me the impression that Yin-Yang is the data and backdrop of information for fundamental building blocks of reality. I would get conceptual manipulation before I get information manipulation.
- Knowledge: These characters can manipulate information as the medium of knowledge as opposed to just manipulating what a specific person knows, which would be considered Mind Manipulation. Characters with this ability can, for example, destroy information on a subject and by that make it inherently unknowable. Other examples of uses would be to prevent information from leaving an area, making it so that those outside can't gain knowledge of what is happening inside, or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else.
- Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality. This can allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. These manipulation can come on many levels. For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities, while others can rewrite information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.
Your source for aging directly contradicts Type 1 Immortality. They'd just have Type 2/3 and Longevity.
- Immortality (Types 1, 2, & 3 - Kegare don't die of old age with them living for over a thousand years such as Sakanashi and the Kegare from their village[37], aging much slower than humans[38]. They can survive losing multiple limbs and still live, they will keep regenerating unless purified)
If its a racial trait of the Kegare, then I think this is Enhanced Senses
- Extrasensory Perception (All Kegare are sensitive to hostile emotions[39])
- Extra Senses:Some characters have completely new senses not possessed by humans, an example of this in real life is the ability of some animal species to sense magnetic fields. Other extra senses can include the ability to sense things in different dimensions, distortions in time and space, the thoughts of other beings, the future, the past, quantum activity, magical energies, forms of life energy like ki, computer data, etc.
- Note - This is not to be confused with Extrasensory Perception, as this ability must involve the use of one of the standard five senses, or any other sensory organs, in order to qualify.
Abstract Existence requires the following:
- Abstract Existence & Incorporeality (Type 2 - Informational - Abstract - Kegare is the collective term for impurity, blood, diseases, death, any misfortune that may befall a person[41]. Kegare are the embodiment of those aforementioned misfortunes, a manifestation of evil spirits. Kegare are also stated to be born from and are negative emotions themselves[42])
Being made from Kegare doesn't give them Abstract Existence unless you can show someone being destroyed and coming back due to being Abstract.Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction.
While I dislike this, technically speaking we give FATE people Invulnerability for similar reasons, so I guess this is fine.
- Invulnerability (Stated that ordinary weapons have no effect due to Kegare being born of the evil aura of Magano[48])
From what I see, yeah, this would qualify as a UES.With the following, Spiritual Power would qualify as a Universal Energy Systems as spells, strength and defense is all through Spiritual Power.
What is this referring to? Nothing listed in the power section would have any of this as ratings.
Presumably you're linking Information to the Type 2 listed above. Going over the power
Yin-Yang isn't the topic, Spiritual Power itself is and spiritual power is the source of all things within the universe. If that isn't Info type 2, then for my own knowledge how would energy need to be described to be info 2? And if its conceptual would that be type 2 since it influences everything?From what I can see nothing given really gives me the impression that Yin-Yang is the data and backdrop of information for fundamental building blocks of reality. I would get conceptual manipulation before I get information manipulation.
I'll change that.Your source for aging directly contradicts Type 1 Immortality. They'd just have Type 2/3 and Longevity.
Changing.If its a racial trait of the Kegare, then I think this is Enhanced Senses
Their true self is just emotions, would this be clarified under their incorporeality then?Being made from Kegare doesn't give them Abstract Existence unless you can show someone being destroyed and coming back due to being Abstract.
You'd need a hard statement or a showing where its legitimate data or information that underpins how the universe works.then for my own knowledge how would energy need to be described to be info 2?
Yeah it'd be type 2 of what they govern.And if its conceptual would that be type 2 since it influences everything?
Yeah. Since Abstract Existence requires them to be reliant on that Abstract. To use an example, Hyperdimension Neptuna characters qualify for Abstract Existence since they can come back with the concept they're attached to.Their true self is just emotions, would this be clarified under their incorporeality then?
Alright I'll remove the AE. Are you fine with cm2 then? Also these characters are listed in the AE page so could you remove that whenever?You'd need a hard statement or a showing where its legitimate data or information that underpins how the universe works.
Yeah it'd be type 2 of what they govern.
Yeah. Since Abstract Existence requires them to be reliant on that Abstract. To use an example, Hyperdimension Neptuna characters qualify for Abstract Existence since they can come back with the concept they're attached to.
Yeah.Are you fine with cm2 then?
If others agree with the change, then sure.Also these characters are listed in the AE page so could you remove that whenever?